Silence on Pakistan operations
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Firstly, and initially, you would only be responding to cataclysmic events, so one would hope that at least some of the red tape would be eliminated.
There were plenty of aircraft flying in to Aceh after a few days so it can't have been that difficult to get in.
Secondly, if you had some sort of formalized association you might be able to operate under the auspices of the UN or other august body, which would provide a lot more legitimacy.
Thirdly, by acting as a group offering rapid response rotor wing intervention in the face of calamity you would be providing an invaluable service that no other entity outside of the armed forces could, so that would command respect.
In both the tsunami and earthquake disasters, the only way you could get into much of the devastated landscape was by helicopter.
After the tsunami, I was absolutely stunned to realize that despite the millions of computers that are seamlessly connected via the internet, nobody was able to warn places like Sri Lanka even though they had at least an hour to warn the coastal dwellers and despite the fact that Hawaiian and Japanese agencies knew of the threat almost immediately.
How much aid could a dozen Chinooks and Mil-26s deliver in a day?
Then again, why didn't they just fly a few containerized RO water purification plants into New Orleans the same way?
There were plenty of aircraft flying in to Aceh after a few days so it can't have been that difficult to get in.
Secondly, if you had some sort of formalized association you might be able to operate under the auspices of the UN or other august body, which would provide a lot more legitimacy.
Thirdly, by acting as a group offering rapid response rotor wing intervention in the face of calamity you would be providing an invaluable service that no other entity outside of the armed forces could, so that would command respect.
In both the tsunami and earthquake disasters, the only way you could get into much of the devastated landscape was by helicopter.
After the tsunami, I was absolutely stunned to realize that despite the millions of computers that are seamlessly connected via the internet, nobody was able to warn places like Sri Lanka even though they had at least an hour to warn the coastal dwellers and despite the fact that Hawaiian and Japanese agencies knew of the threat almost immediately.
How much aid could a dozen Chinooks and Mil-26s deliver in a day?
Then again, why didn't they just fly a few containerized RO water purification plants into New Orleans the same way?
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The only civil registered helicopter I've seen in photoreports is a Bulgarian registered Hip flying for the UN. All other choppers were either CH-53 and Chinooks from either the US marines/army and the HEER. And off course a huge load of Hips from the Pakistani and Afghanistan Armed Forces have been in action.
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the Red Cross got 2 Pumas, 4 MI-8MTV and 1 MI-8T operating nearly from the beginning of this rescue operation. Some more should follow soon.
They are expecting a MI-26 for a sling operation in some of the inaccessible valleys to bring shelter material and food. They could use some help from Rotorlogic's expertise. Pls PM me if your offer is still valid.
They are expecting a MI-26 for a sling operation in some of the inaccessible valleys to bring shelter material and food. They could use some help from Rotorlogic's expertise. Pls PM me if your offer is still valid.
Cool as a moosp
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Ah, here we are, slipped to page two already, so here is a back to the top mail.
Short lived concern of man, I think Robert Frost termed it.
As most of us see further difficulties in developing helicopter operations for business and pleasure, let us open this new one. Charity plus 5%. It is a good business model, and has been tested for many years.
I imagine a video promo that starts with the helicopter assault from 'Apocalypse Now' morphing into helicopters from this organisation, landing and doing good stuff.
Yes, I know it is fantasy, but this is a brain-storm web site too, and until we motivate a core team, the ideas will wither.
Initial team.
One director, ex NGO, well connected.
Two logistics experts, heli ops experienced. Build data base of available machines.
Three politicos, to build the consumer base.
Four fund sourcing experts. Ex business or NGO.
After six months:
One highly visible figurehead, known in a positive light to most presidents.
Three operations staff, ready to go.
One engineering manager for dispersed helicopter operations.
It may deflate ppruners, that it is only at this point that we need to consider pilots. But one tooth out of the wheel stops the machine.
These are just thought, folks. I know out there those of you in the industry who are already doing this stuff may laugh at my naivety, but you must admit there is room for improvement. Sometimes a new point of view can help, and I would be delighted to hear any comments, pro or anti.
Short lived concern of man, I think Robert Frost termed it.
As most of us see further difficulties in developing helicopter operations for business and pleasure, let us open this new one. Charity plus 5%. It is a good business model, and has been tested for many years.
I imagine a video promo that starts with the helicopter assault from 'Apocalypse Now' morphing into helicopters from this organisation, landing and doing good stuff.
Yes, I know it is fantasy, but this is a brain-storm web site too, and until we motivate a core team, the ideas will wither.
Initial team.
One director, ex NGO, well connected.
Two logistics experts, heli ops experienced. Build data base of available machines.
Three politicos, to build the consumer base.
Four fund sourcing experts. Ex business or NGO.
After six months:
One highly visible figurehead, known in a positive light to most presidents.
Three operations staff, ready to go.
One engineering manager for dispersed helicopter operations.
It may deflate ppruners, that it is only at this point that we need to consider pilots. But one tooth out of the wheel stops the machine.
These are just thought, folks. I know out there those of you in the industry who are already doing this stuff may laugh at my naivety, but you must admit there is room for improvement. Sometimes a new point of view can help, and I would be delighted to hear any comments, pro or anti.
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ride of the valyries
Hey, I shared roughly the same fantasy and even heard the Ride of the Valkyries playing in my mind's ear.
I love the smell of passionate altruism in the morning!
I think that you have to start with a collective of motivated people who can establish a professional identity and use it to generate some momentum.
Then, you need to talk to individuals directly involved in the organizational process of a major international relief operation, and sell the idea, and ask them about the fundamentals required for best use of such a rapid rotorwing response team.
Consideration of the logistical requirements necessary to support the team and the precise make up of the group that would drive the developmental phase would then be meaningful.
Bottom line - conventional delivery is much too slow, which means people dying unnecessarily, and there is no doubt that a rapid response team could do a much better job particularly if it was set up to mobilize rapidly and if it's ability to do so was promoted in the 'corridors of power'.
Seems like there's a few people thinking alike here!!
I love the smell of passionate altruism in the morning!
I think that you have to start with a collective of motivated people who can establish a professional identity and use it to generate some momentum.
Then, you need to talk to individuals directly involved in the organizational process of a major international relief operation, and sell the idea, and ask them about the fundamentals required for best use of such a rapid rotorwing response team.
Consideration of the logistical requirements necessary to support the team and the precise make up of the group that would drive the developmental phase would then be meaningful.
Bottom line - conventional delivery is much too slow, which means people dying unnecessarily, and there is no doubt that a rapid response team could do a much better job particularly if it was set up to mobilize rapidly and if it's ability to do so was promoted in the 'corridors of power'.
Seems like there's a few people thinking alike here!!
Interesting concept of Helos with no borders but what equip to use ? Speed of operation set up/reliability /ease of operation, my choice would be for the fixedwing IL76 -cheap, reliable good payload, with the L100/C-130 as second choice (smaller payload and expence(Eastern bloc v Western ac cost). The important one the Helo's!!!! I believe the 212 is the choice machine I know the Puma, Super Puma, Mil 8/17 are all more capable but are also to large to transport and get into action in a short time, an IL76 with 2x212 on board could land at a disaster area offload and have the 212's in action in hours with the IL76 acting as tanker and homebase for the crews until more formal disaster relief support is set up. I think this would work well I know people will come out with lots of wonderful ideas, with bigger more glamourous machines but the fact is you want to get into a disaster zone and in operation asap, I have worked on S.Pumas,Hueys, Blackhawks and Chinooks and if any of them are airtransported into a place the 205/212 is flying days before the others and speed is the key. Let the military come in a week later with the big toys , get in early and start saving people with the 212's now!
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I wouldnt count on IL76 once there is a need for them there will be a shortage as goverments lacking there own transports rent all of avaiable planes to ship there own aid.
I would use 747 cargo planes to ship in your helicopters, crew, ground suport people and basic suport gear. I would try to get UPS DHL are FedX to do this for free and base your helicopters near there major hubs for fastest posable deployments.
Then you need to get some C130s for resuplying your helicopters once you are deployed. You will probaly have to pay for these yourself as I doubt large cargo haulers would be willing to provide free resuply.
Maybe a split of one C130 for moveing suplys from major airport to remote smaller airports and a longer range midsize cargo plane to move suplys into country. You may be able to get NGOs to provide you with suplys and cover your fuel cost if you show yourself as being able to deliver results.
Last you will probally be shipping your helicopters home by boat so need to arange for that as well.
I would use 747 cargo planes to ship in your helicopters, crew, ground suport people and basic suport gear. I would try to get UPS DHL are FedX to do this for free and base your helicopters near there major hubs for fastest posable deployments.
Then you need to get some C130s for resuplying your helicopters once you are deployed. You will probaly have to pay for these yourself as I doubt large cargo haulers would be willing to provide free resuply.
Maybe a split of one C130 for moveing suplys from major airport to remote smaller airports and a longer range midsize cargo plane to move suplys into country. You may be able to get NGOs to provide you with suplys and cover your fuel cost if you show yourself as being able to deliver results.
Last you will probally be shipping your helicopters home by boat so need to arange for that as well.
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what's possible if you put things together the right way
One guy's idea was transformed a few years later into a mega-project that grew from supplying 900 units a year to more than 15,000 a year.
What's behind the success? Well the equation includes military style precision and organisation combined with some business nouse.
If you are looking for a 'model' for the delivery side then take a look
www.shelterbox.org
G
What's behind the success? Well the equation includes military style precision and organisation combined with some business nouse.
If you are looking for a 'model' for the delivery side then take a look
www.shelterbox.org
G
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I wouldn't use the 747 for transport of your "Helos without frontiers" venture. Too much ground equipment and infrastructure is needed to support those babies. You need a modern airport, and somehow disasters happen in area's where there is a lack of properly operating infrastructure. You need something that can stand alone. Or better yet, make your payload "containerised". Have your gear somewhere in containers, ready to be pucked up by any sort of transport, either hired equipment, or hitching a ride on a militairy transporter. Then you don't need to have your own fixed wing asset.
As for helos, they must be easy to move, without too much hassle they should be able to be re-assembled shortly after arrival. It sounds like a perfect job for a helicopter that was used for ship-based operations. They were made with SAR and sling-jobs in mind, small, and maintance was designed in such way that it can be supported by a small crew. So that means the S-2G Seasprite or Ka-32 come to mind.
just my 2 cents off course
As for helos, they must be easy to move, without too much hassle they should be able to be re-assembled shortly after arrival. It sounds like a perfect job for a helicopter that was used for ship-based operations. They were made with SAR and sling-jobs in mind, small, and maintance was designed in such way that it can be supported by a small crew. So that means the S-2G Seasprite or Ka-32 come to mind.
just my 2 cents off course
Cool as a moosp
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Blackhawk9, good point. Although it is early days to be talking machines, the speed of deployment is critical, so anything that can fly two hours out of the "box" (be it an IL76 hold or a shipping crate) is the one to look at. As I posted earlier, a couple of tonnes airlifted in or out on the first day can save lots of lives.
All the glamour stuff with heavy lift can be provided by the military and UN a week later. The rapid intervention model is similar to the RI fire tenders at your local airport, motocyle paramedics, police on bicycles. Get there first and start working. Also most importantly, feed back information to base so that resources can be properly assigned.
Siddar, the idea is that these transports would already be allocated to this organisation, so no one else can rent them. Who owns, or leases what varies by the business model, so there are several options. By registering the machines in a well chosen country where a combination of low cost registration and apparent world neutrality is available, they would not be liable to be sequested either. I like your point about intermediate range re-supply.
Still the most critical vector is permission to operate.
All the glamour stuff with heavy lift can be provided by the military and UN a week later. The rapid intervention model is similar to the RI fire tenders at your local airport, motocyle paramedics, police on bicycles. Get there first and start working. Also most importantly, feed back information to base so that resources can be properly assigned.
Siddar, the idea is that these transports would already be allocated to this organisation, so no one else can rent them. Who owns, or leases what varies by the business model, so there are several options. By registering the machines in a well chosen country where a combination of low cost registration and apparent world neutrality is available, they would not be liable to be sequested either. I like your point about intermediate range re-supply.
Still the most critical vector is permission to operate.
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Personally, I have a lot of time for the Kamov KA-32 because it is designed for portability, rapid deployment, shipboard operation etc.
Although all the suggestions with respect to best machines and logistical requirements are probably valid, it seems to me that we are getting ahead of ourselves with discussion of helicopter acquisition.
Who is going to pay for the equipment? Who is it going to be avaialble to? How many disasters will the rapid rotorwing response team be mobilised for exactly? What regions?
Some of the major corporations, like GM in the US, use software based on evolutionary algorithms to predict where resources can be placed to optimum advantage.
Perhaps a better operational model would be an information-based organisation that sourced people, helis and infrastructural support as the need arose.
Keep it relatively simple and maintain an updated database of available pilots and crew and their respective specialities, as well as the locations of usable machinery which will be available in times of crisis.
This might be a better way of implementing and developing the idea, proving it without massive upfront and holding costs.
Although all the suggestions with respect to best machines and logistical requirements are probably valid, it seems to me that we are getting ahead of ourselves with discussion of helicopter acquisition.
Who is going to pay for the equipment? Who is it going to be avaialble to? How many disasters will the rapid rotorwing response team be mobilised for exactly? What regions?
Some of the major corporations, like GM in the US, use software based on evolutionary algorithms to predict where resources can be placed to optimum advantage.
Perhaps a better operational model would be an information-based organisation that sourced people, helis and infrastructural support as the need arose.
Keep it relatively simple and maintain an updated database of available pilots and crew and their respective specialities, as well as the locations of usable machinery which will be available in times of crisis.
This might be a better way of implementing and developing the idea, proving it without massive upfront and holding costs.
Cool as a moosp
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Today I read that the helicopter operations in Pakistan may cease due to lack of funds. It seems that the pledged funds from various countries have not materialised. Yet another reason to find an alternative system to the present one.
Rotorlogic, yes it is too early to talk machines, but any input in a brainstorm is worthwhile. We can note it for later. Kamov sounds good, although dollar cost of aquisition per lift kilo might be expensive. As a sky crane, the best, but sometimes relief transports need to carry people, so other types will be needed.
Which brings in your idea of the virtual organisation. A software that targets resources and tasks them appropriately. Two levels I see here, one to find them in the world and trigger their release, the other, at the sharp end, to roster the aircraft and crews to their best effectiveness at the "disaster" site.
For the first, I see an organisation that essentially "owns" the machines, through smart leasing that only exceedingly smart accountants can arrange. Think the old, "safe harbour leasing" (now unlikely to succeed as it has been effectively blocked) but the principle was that the tax payers of certain countries ended up paying for your aeroplanes. There are new and innovative methods of finance that are similarly just legal which may work.
I feel that the idea of waiting for the disaster and then trying to lease machines is desperately flawed. Even if you can find the machines, some one has to pay for the leasing, at commercial rates, and the funds run out very quickly. Better to own them on zero percent leases (believe it or not they do exist for certain organisations- think Japanese construction companies...) and then you have the control. By all means lease them to third parties commercially when they are not needed, but when we need them, the small print of the lease will let them go to the desired destination within the day.
For the second level, of software to roster at the disaster site, I think that most people who have been involved in this kind of operation would agree that the human brain has yet to be bettered. The changing environment, the infinite variables of resources and the rules to use them suggest that smart operations staff are better, in this decade.
So we come back to funding. The principle will be that all or most operations are pre-funded. Sounds crazy but it may work. I do not have the financial background for this, but "disaster futures", traded against weather futures, and various derivatives of this is a start. Split coupon debentures sold at retail might give a percentage to the oraganisation and a percentage to the holder. Tax deductions for registered charity to cover the split. It's all way beyond most of us, but it works for Soros so it can work for us. Collecting coins in a tin is not part of this operation.
Keep the ideas coming, and keep thinking non standard operations, which I know is difficult as it is anathema to a pilot.
Rotorlogic, yes it is too early to talk machines, but any input in a brainstorm is worthwhile. We can note it for later. Kamov sounds good, although dollar cost of aquisition per lift kilo might be expensive. As a sky crane, the best, but sometimes relief transports need to carry people, so other types will be needed.
Which brings in your idea of the virtual organisation. A software that targets resources and tasks them appropriately. Two levels I see here, one to find them in the world and trigger their release, the other, at the sharp end, to roster the aircraft and crews to their best effectiveness at the "disaster" site.
For the first, I see an organisation that essentially "owns" the machines, through smart leasing that only exceedingly smart accountants can arrange. Think the old, "safe harbour leasing" (now unlikely to succeed as it has been effectively blocked) but the principle was that the tax payers of certain countries ended up paying for your aeroplanes. There are new and innovative methods of finance that are similarly just legal which may work.
I feel that the idea of waiting for the disaster and then trying to lease machines is desperately flawed. Even if you can find the machines, some one has to pay for the leasing, at commercial rates, and the funds run out very quickly. Better to own them on zero percent leases (believe it or not they do exist for certain organisations- think Japanese construction companies...) and then you have the control. By all means lease them to third parties commercially when they are not needed, but when we need them, the small print of the lease will let them go to the desired destination within the day.
For the second level, of software to roster at the disaster site, I think that most people who have been involved in this kind of operation would agree that the human brain has yet to be bettered. The changing environment, the infinite variables of resources and the rules to use them suggest that smart operations staff are better, in this decade.
So we come back to funding. The principle will be that all or most operations are pre-funded. Sounds crazy but it may work. I do not have the financial background for this, but "disaster futures", traded against weather futures, and various derivatives of this is a start. Split coupon debentures sold at retail might give a percentage to the oraganisation and a percentage to the holder. Tax deductions for registered charity to cover the split. It's all way beyond most of us, but it works for Soros so it can work for us. Collecting coins in a tin is not part of this operation.
Keep the ideas coming, and keep thinking non standard operations, which I know is difficult as it is anathema to a pilot.
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Owning Machines
Moosp
I think you are right on this one, the only way to have complete control over the "fleet" would be to own them. Sure enough they probably could be utilised whilst not on task however it would probably have to be ad-hoc stuff unless you have some very crafty contractual clauses allowing you to ask for the machine back just as the client is putting his shiny new mobile phone mast on top of the hill!
The thread is something I have been thinking about for sometime but the resources required are huge, certainly there is room for an organisation like this and whatever happens it would probably be able to react more quickly than the military efforts that have been seen since the quake - I hasten to add that this is, as has been mentioned previously, probably down to politics rather than hardware.
Good thread all, keep it up - definite food for thought!
I think you are right on this one, the only way to have complete control over the "fleet" would be to own them. Sure enough they probably could be utilised whilst not on task however it would probably have to be ad-hoc stuff unless you have some very crafty contractual clauses allowing you to ask for the machine back just as the client is putting his shiny new mobile phone mast on top of the hill!
The thread is something I have been thinking about for sometime but the resources required are huge, certainly there is room for an organisation like this and whatever happens it would probably be able to react more quickly than the military efforts that have been seen since the quake - I hasten to add that this is, as has been mentioned previously, probably down to politics rather than hardware.
Good thread all, keep it up - definite food for thought!
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The concept of a quick reaction heli force is great!
But the title of this thread is "Silence on Pakistan Operations". Is it possible to start a new thread about the heli force concept and transfer the relevant posts over? This thread can then concentrate on the dismal situation in Pakistan/Kashmir.
Heliport: Can you help?
bondu
But the title of this thread is "Silence on Pakistan Operations". Is it possible to start a new thread about the heli force concept and transfer the relevant posts over? This thread can then concentrate on the dismal situation in Pakistan/Kashmir.
Heliport: Can you help?
bondu
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Moosp makes some great points!
Cheap lease deals and then hiring the equipment out with a rapid-release clause would help defray the costs. Is it feasible though?
Would it be better to have some big-brother umbrella organisation like the UN or Microsoft organise that part. Would it be possible to use corporate or government money to finance the lease deal at more favourable rates or with special governmental concessions based on the intended aim of the RRRG (rapid rotorwing response group), and then acquire the equipment and hire it out in the ER-type deal. Definitely worth looking into.
I think that the software approach is being underestimated though, but its a relatively new idea and many people are not really aware of it. I understand that GM saved something like $200m in the first year of operation just from better resource distribution.
Computing bang4buck just keeps doubling every 18 months or so with no end in sight. Disposable GPS-chip pricing and the rise of RFID tags means that most aircraft and shipments are going to be tracked in giant databases real time.
You still need people to interpret the results and define the parameters for the software though so it's not like the computer can start to put the pieces of the puzzle together itself. It's just a calculator on steroids.
I have some good friends in the computer research field so maybe I am kept a little more up to date with this stuff but you don't have to read much to know that the information age is just beginning. The average mobile phone will have GPS, a camera, CPU, memory etc in a couple of years if it doesn't already. Give it another 5 years or so and it will probably check your vital signs and communicate them to your local GP and help organise your personal life by reminding you to do stuff based on your location etc. Did you know that at the time of the Boxing Day disaster the Japanese tsunami warnign system featured automated messaging to all mobile phones - even turning them on if they were off?
That's what depressed me about the tsunami! I was able to videoconference with 10 different people across the planet simultaneouslyfor free using my webcam but, unbelievably, nobody was able to warn the millions in its path. The technology is not yet being used effectively.
I think a reasonable first aim is to start simple but think big. Initially, you need a formalized organisation of reliable committed professionals and a database detailing their skill set, availability and location, which is kept up to date by the individuals themselves.
If you haven't guessed already, I'm a big fan of brain storming.
I'm also ready to help save the world - but I draw the line at lycra tights!
I think a new thread may be a good idea.
Cheap lease deals and then hiring the equipment out with a rapid-release clause would help defray the costs. Is it feasible though?
Would it be better to have some big-brother umbrella organisation like the UN or Microsoft organise that part. Would it be possible to use corporate or government money to finance the lease deal at more favourable rates or with special governmental concessions based on the intended aim of the RRRG (rapid rotorwing response group), and then acquire the equipment and hire it out in the ER-type deal. Definitely worth looking into.
I think that the software approach is being underestimated though, but its a relatively new idea and many people are not really aware of it. I understand that GM saved something like $200m in the first year of operation just from better resource distribution.
Computing bang4buck just keeps doubling every 18 months or so with no end in sight. Disposable GPS-chip pricing and the rise of RFID tags means that most aircraft and shipments are going to be tracked in giant databases real time.
You still need people to interpret the results and define the parameters for the software though so it's not like the computer can start to put the pieces of the puzzle together itself. It's just a calculator on steroids.
I have some good friends in the computer research field so maybe I am kept a little more up to date with this stuff but you don't have to read much to know that the information age is just beginning. The average mobile phone will have GPS, a camera, CPU, memory etc in a couple of years if it doesn't already. Give it another 5 years or so and it will probably check your vital signs and communicate them to your local GP and help organise your personal life by reminding you to do stuff based on your location etc. Did you know that at the time of the Boxing Day disaster the Japanese tsunami warnign system featured automated messaging to all mobile phones - even turning them on if they were off?
That's what depressed me about the tsunami! I was able to videoconference with 10 different people across the planet simultaneouslyfor free using my webcam but, unbelievably, nobody was able to warn the millions in its path. The technology is not yet being used effectively.
I think a reasonable first aim is to start simple but think big. Initially, you need a formalized organisation of reliable committed professionals and a database detailing their skill set, availability and location, which is kept up to date by the individuals themselves.
If you haven't guessed already, I'm a big fan of brain storming.
I'm also ready to help save the world - but I draw the line at lycra tights!
I think a new thread may be a good idea.
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Greetings all,
Parts, fuel and engineering support are difficult enough to get into third world and/or other places WITH visas,permits and political connections in place. Imagine how much graft would accompany "sans frontiere" style operations.
I think the demand for kick back would exceed resources. There would be no where to park a machine for all the machines that would be impounded and grounded.
Do DHL deliver up that way???
DD
Parts, fuel and engineering support are difficult enough to get into third world and/or other places WITH visas,permits and political connections in place. Imagine how much graft would accompany "sans frontiere" style operations.
I think the demand for kick back would exceed resources. There would be no where to park a machine for all the machines that would be impounded and grounded.
Do DHL deliver up that way???
DD
I think this plan has got tracked in a terminal direction based on the concept of establishing a specialised force of helicopters for emergency use that do some commercial work to keep the doors open?
Well, count me out. I would fight you tooth and nail in the commercial marketplace and I can guarantee that I would win that battle, because we are good at what we do, and do it continuously, in a competitive marketplace and still make money. The last thing we need is competition from some group that doesn't need to show a profit driving the rates down.
The problem with creating a specialised force that responds only to emergency requirements, is they spend a huge amount of time doing nothing productive, but burn collosal amounts of money in the process. In order to respond effectively, they must be crewed and trained at the 100% level at all times, and maintain 100% availability of their fleet. Neither of these are fully achievable, nor feasible, if any reasonable type of budget is to be maintained.
The last thing that is required for a rapid, flexible, cost effective response, is some cumbersome government-like, or quasi-military organization that spends the majority of its time training for a variety of missions, that it is neither particularly current at, nor particularly good at.
The best option, is to place the demand in the commercial marketplace, and select precisley what you need. Demand the levels of safety and performance you require. Pay for what you need and only for as long as you require it. It is a far more cost effective and responsive option to be paying for what you need, rather than burning a collossal cash reserve to maintain a state of preparedness for what you might need. How much of your actual budget would go on maintaining a state of preparedness in comparison to the amount utilized to actually assist people in need? I think this alone would kill the project in the conceptual stage.
Commercial operators perform every kind of service, in every kind of operational and geographic environment, and can respond instantly so long as there is a plan, a contracting mechanism and funding. Commercial operators can provide a range of machines, support, skills, escalated crews - whatever you need - and all at realistic and viable commercial rates. Commercial operators already maintain completely qualified crews and equipped helicopters - because this is what we do for a living. How can we be so sure? Because it is the bread and butter of business, and if you can't do it, you won't be in business for very long.
As I see this problem, the difficulty arises in providing the resources to allow the resonding agencies or governments to identify the Operators that operate the equipment they require, and the ability to determine what kind of equipment will meet that requirement.
If the industry itself could get together, it can provide the resources and response to the organizations that need the equipment, and allow it to go into a rapid contracting process by having interested operators pre-register and pre-qualify to a defined, known, operating, safety and performance standard that ensures the quality of the delivered product.
No matter who the end user is, this mechanism would allow everyone to compete on a level playing field, and would ensure that the selected equipment is performing to a determined standard.
In my opinion, the simplest way to centralise the operator base would be through the various National and/or International Helicopter Operator Organizations, as this would ensure that every operator would have a means of access to the program through whichever organization they elect to affiliate themselves with - without being tied to any particular one. This would also allow the organzations to manage the marketing and informational side to the end users, through the existing resources of those same organizations and maybe a specific website. They already have the contacts and connections with regulators, governments and agencies that would be organizing the response.
The group could be managed by the member organisations and an elected board from member operators. All expenses incurred by operator members would be the responsibilty of the operator. A modest annual registration fee could be levied for all interested operators who wish to register as a Contractor, ensuring that all routine operating expenses are adequately funded. There is also the possibility that modest grants might be obtained to assist solely in the administration of the programme. Public AGM's could be held in conjunction with exisiting helicopter industry meetings, thus minimizing any additional management time or expense. The only thing the Operators have to do, is volunteer the time and resources of their employees to provide the manpower and horsepower to run the entire thing - and strangely enough, this is the exact type of system that all these Helicopter Organisations run on right now. Tight budgets and volunteers are the really productive way to manage a realistic response from the interested parties and players in the field.
The problem is not a shortage of helicopters or people to operate them. The problem is the inability of the helicopter industry to determine the end users, and educate them on the selection of the equipment they require and provide a mechanism for them to contract safe, effective, responsive resources whenever they need them, wherever they need them.
At least, thats how I see it!
Well, count me out. I would fight you tooth and nail in the commercial marketplace and I can guarantee that I would win that battle, because we are good at what we do, and do it continuously, in a competitive marketplace and still make money. The last thing we need is competition from some group that doesn't need to show a profit driving the rates down.
The problem with creating a specialised force that responds only to emergency requirements, is they spend a huge amount of time doing nothing productive, but burn collosal amounts of money in the process. In order to respond effectively, they must be crewed and trained at the 100% level at all times, and maintain 100% availability of their fleet. Neither of these are fully achievable, nor feasible, if any reasonable type of budget is to be maintained.
The last thing that is required for a rapid, flexible, cost effective response, is some cumbersome government-like, or quasi-military organization that spends the majority of its time training for a variety of missions, that it is neither particularly current at, nor particularly good at.
The best option, is to place the demand in the commercial marketplace, and select precisley what you need. Demand the levels of safety and performance you require. Pay for what you need and only for as long as you require it. It is a far more cost effective and responsive option to be paying for what you need, rather than burning a collossal cash reserve to maintain a state of preparedness for what you might need. How much of your actual budget would go on maintaining a state of preparedness in comparison to the amount utilized to actually assist people in need? I think this alone would kill the project in the conceptual stage.
Commercial operators perform every kind of service, in every kind of operational and geographic environment, and can respond instantly so long as there is a plan, a contracting mechanism and funding. Commercial operators can provide a range of machines, support, skills, escalated crews - whatever you need - and all at realistic and viable commercial rates. Commercial operators already maintain completely qualified crews and equipped helicopters - because this is what we do for a living. How can we be so sure? Because it is the bread and butter of business, and if you can't do it, you won't be in business for very long.
As I see this problem, the difficulty arises in providing the resources to allow the resonding agencies or governments to identify the Operators that operate the equipment they require, and the ability to determine what kind of equipment will meet that requirement.
If the industry itself could get together, it can provide the resources and response to the organizations that need the equipment, and allow it to go into a rapid contracting process by having interested operators pre-register and pre-qualify to a defined, known, operating, safety and performance standard that ensures the quality of the delivered product.
No matter who the end user is, this mechanism would allow everyone to compete on a level playing field, and would ensure that the selected equipment is performing to a determined standard.
In my opinion, the simplest way to centralise the operator base would be through the various National and/or International Helicopter Operator Organizations, as this would ensure that every operator would have a means of access to the program through whichever organization they elect to affiliate themselves with - without being tied to any particular one. This would also allow the organzations to manage the marketing and informational side to the end users, through the existing resources of those same organizations and maybe a specific website. They already have the contacts and connections with regulators, governments and agencies that would be organizing the response.
The group could be managed by the member organisations and an elected board from member operators. All expenses incurred by operator members would be the responsibilty of the operator. A modest annual registration fee could be levied for all interested operators who wish to register as a Contractor, ensuring that all routine operating expenses are adequately funded. There is also the possibility that modest grants might be obtained to assist solely in the administration of the programme. Public AGM's could be held in conjunction with exisiting helicopter industry meetings, thus minimizing any additional management time or expense. The only thing the Operators have to do, is volunteer the time and resources of their employees to provide the manpower and horsepower to run the entire thing - and strangely enough, this is the exact type of system that all these Helicopter Organisations run on right now. Tight budgets and volunteers are the really productive way to manage a realistic response from the interested parties and players in the field.
The problem is not a shortage of helicopters or people to operate them. The problem is the inability of the helicopter industry to determine the end users, and educate them on the selection of the equipment they require and provide a mechanism for them to contract safe, effective, responsive resources whenever they need them, wherever they need them.
At least, thats how I see it!
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If the primary evaluating crieterion is, as it should be, how quickly, effectively and continuously relief gets to victims, then the existing system/organisations don't seem to pass muster.
I really don't have any idea how a major operation like this comes together so it's probably unfair to criticize except for the fact that, JUST MAYBE, the half million or so poor souls slowly freezing/starving to death as winter descends like a silent white shroud in those valleys might ask that some people bloody well do.
I'm sure that those miserable wretches, who must know better than anyone what's ahead of them, couldn't care less if it's the UN or a commercial consortium that saves them or gives them shelter.
I stumbled onto this forum simply trying to find a way to help and carrying a concern that has grown steadily from the tsunami through New Orleans and into this latest cataclysm, and found some like-minded people trying to come up with a solution and I think it's great. Maybe naive and idealistic but maybe what we need is a rethink.
Let the commercial operators get on with it if they can come to some sort of arrangement. My experience with contactors is that they are too independent and/or suspicious to cooperate effectively. All you need is one opportunist to break ranks and most of the organizational momentum evaporates.
And really, are we supposed to have faith in a system that's so disorganised that it couldn't even deliver food and water to New Orleans?
Personally, I'm for whoever can get the job done and I'm prepared to help out NOW and do my share NOW.
I really don't have any idea how a major operation like this comes together so it's probably unfair to criticize except for the fact that, JUST MAYBE, the half million or so poor souls slowly freezing/starving to death as winter descends like a silent white shroud in those valleys might ask that some people bloody well do.
I'm sure that those miserable wretches, who must know better than anyone what's ahead of them, couldn't care less if it's the UN or a commercial consortium that saves them or gives them shelter.
I stumbled onto this forum simply trying to find a way to help and carrying a concern that has grown steadily from the tsunami through New Orleans and into this latest cataclysm, and found some like-minded people trying to come up with a solution and I think it's great. Maybe naive and idealistic but maybe what we need is a rethink.
Let the commercial operators get on with it if they can come to some sort of arrangement. My experience with contactors is that they are too independent and/or suspicious to cooperate effectively. All you need is one opportunist to break ranks and most of the organizational momentum evaporates.
And really, are we supposed to have faith in a system that's so disorganised that it couldn't even deliver food and water to New Orleans?
Personally, I'm for whoever can get the job done and I'm prepared to help out NOW and do my share NOW.
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Furthermore!
Having now had a few hours to deliberate some more:
Cyclic Hotline, some very valid points however I am still confident that if they were of the correct type the aircraft and crews would get utilised and as said before they would have to be allowed to depart the role if an emergency situation were to arise. I do see your point that the flying roles and training required for relief work would have to be trained on a continuous basis however with the remuneration that the aircraft make whilst operational outside of their primary role (disaster relief) this should allow recurrent training for all crew members.
You have added something quite interesting which would be to have the 'fleet' distributed i.e. UK, US, Middle East etc (wherever really) which would perhaps allow a diversity and cut down immediate evaluation and response times. If there are aircraft already operational / based near the region - allowing experienced crews to arrive at the scene along with op's teams to gauge what the response should be i.e. the number of cabs and ancillary personnel required and what role they should be in. At the same time the other aircraft away from the immediate relief area are placed on standby (called back from their secondary roles etc.)
The commercial market place could take advantage of the aircraft whilst not on task people are always looking for second / third machines etc in all aspects of aviation - whether that be maintenance cover or extra requirement - so to have the availability of machines which as you quite rightly say would otherwise be sat doing nothing might be quite advantageous. In essence this operation would be placed in the commercial market place anyway and not a 'quasi-military' type organisation as you put it. I whole heartedly agree with your statement that the commercial operators are able to provide experienced crews and the right type of helicopter but rarely at the drop of a hat - especially when considering the type of aircraft required to carry out this type of operation.
As all who have read this thread know, this is a huge undertaking for anyone but it would seem there are quite a few of you willing to have a look at it - count me in, it would be an interesting exercise... and you never know!!
p.s. new thread great idea!
Cyclic Hotline, some very valid points however I am still confident that if they were of the correct type the aircraft and crews would get utilised and as said before they would have to be allowed to depart the role if an emergency situation were to arise. I do see your point that the flying roles and training required for relief work would have to be trained on a continuous basis however with the remuneration that the aircraft make whilst operational outside of their primary role (disaster relief) this should allow recurrent training for all crew members.
You have added something quite interesting which would be to have the 'fleet' distributed i.e. UK, US, Middle East etc (wherever really) which would perhaps allow a diversity and cut down immediate evaluation and response times. If there are aircraft already operational / based near the region - allowing experienced crews to arrive at the scene along with op's teams to gauge what the response should be i.e. the number of cabs and ancillary personnel required and what role they should be in. At the same time the other aircraft away from the immediate relief area are placed on standby (called back from their secondary roles etc.)
The commercial market place could take advantage of the aircraft whilst not on task people are always looking for second / third machines etc in all aspects of aviation - whether that be maintenance cover or extra requirement - so to have the availability of machines which as you quite rightly say would otherwise be sat doing nothing might be quite advantageous. In essence this operation would be placed in the commercial market place anyway and not a 'quasi-military' type organisation as you put it. I whole heartedly agree with your statement that the commercial operators are able to provide experienced crews and the right type of helicopter but rarely at the drop of a hat - especially when considering the type of aircraft required to carry out this type of operation.
As all who have read this thread know, this is a huge undertaking for anyone but it would seem there are quite a few of you willing to have a look at it - count me in, it would be an interesting exercise... and you never know!!
p.s. new thread great idea!
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From C4 News tonight - estimate of 200,000 people not yet reached by ANY aid. Pakistan govt. currently state that 160,000 need airlift out of disaster zones which are too badly affected to be supported. Current deaths stand at 72,000 - and look bound to rise substantially.
There have been numerous intelligent suggestions on this thread so far - I hope someone has the psychological resources to take them further. Cyclic Hotline's assessment looks spot-on to me.
There have been numerous intelligent suggestions on this thread so far - I hope someone has the psychological resources to take them further. Cyclic Hotline's assessment looks spot-on to me.