BO 105 - Good, Bad or just Ugly?
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Bo 105
I can't comment on the machine as a pilot (at this stage I am still flying Robby 22's and dreaming of getting to fly "real" heli 
), but from a flight paramedic's perspective I would say that although it is adequate for the job it is not ideal. It is not impossible to use a 105 for medevac (there are many still utilised in this role), but I believe that these machines are dedicated EMS helos.
From my point of view, the interior is just a tad too small to be really useful for patient care. Once in the helo, there is no real access to the patient from the waist down. This shouldn't be a problem though, because the patient should have been stabilised prior to loading into the helo. This may become a factor though if the patient has multiple lower limb fractures or has MAST suit in place - both situations in which you need access to the lower limbs.
Medevac is an equipment intensive business, so you should also look at the amount of equipment that the med crews are going to be carrying/ utilising. Once you have the patient and two crew members on board, you will also have the crew's jump bag, an ECG monitor/defibrillator, vital signs monitor, ventilator, and suction unit. Not forgetting that you will need oxygen onboard as well. You may also have (or should have) a few infusion pumps as well. And then the crew will need space to be able to access this equipment readily during flight.
Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is the time taken to switch from charter to EMS capability. It used to take an average of 45 minutes fo the AMEs to change the Citation that a company that I previously worked for from pax configuration to EMS. Granted, the 105 is not a Citation but I would imagine that it may take a similar amount of time to swop over. If you will only be doing cold cases such as interhospital transfers, then this will probably not be a concern. However, if you are going to be responding to scene calls this will be unacceptable. Hot responses require a dedicated helicopter.
If your company does opt for the 105 then I would take Oogle's advice and go for the CBS or DBS depending on your power needs.That extra fuselage length will make all the difference for your flight medical crew. Personally I would rather have a BK117, or an EC135.
This is just my 2 cents worth and you may get differing opinions from other flight med crews.
---------------
Regards,
Iain
), but from a flight paramedic's perspective I would say that although it is adequate for the job it is not ideal. It is not impossible to use a 105 for medevac (there are many still utilised in this role), but I believe that these machines are dedicated EMS helos.From my point of view, the interior is just a tad too small to be really useful for patient care. Once in the helo, there is no real access to the patient from the waist down. This shouldn't be a problem though, because the patient should have been stabilised prior to loading into the helo. This may become a factor though if the patient has multiple lower limb fractures or has MAST suit in place - both situations in which you need access to the lower limbs.
Medevac is an equipment intensive business, so you should also look at the amount of equipment that the med crews are going to be carrying/ utilising. Once you have the patient and two crew members on board, you will also have the crew's jump bag, an ECG monitor/defibrillator, vital signs monitor, ventilator, and suction unit. Not forgetting that you will need oxygen onboard as well. You may also have (or should have) a few infusion pumps as well. And then the crew will need space to be able to access this equipment readily during flight.
Something else that needs to be taken into consideration is the time taken to switch from charter to EMS capability. It used to take an average of 45 minutes fo the AMEs to change the Citation that a company that I previously worked for from pax configuration to EMS. Granted, the 105 is not a Citation but I would imagine that it may take a similar amount of time to swop over. If you will only be doing cold cases such as interhospital transfers, then this will probably not be a concern. However, if you are going to be responding to scene calls this will be unacceptable. Hot responses require a dedicated helicopter.
If your company does opt for the 105 then I would take Oogle's advice and go for the CBS or DBS depending on your power needs.That extra fuselage length will make all the difference for your flight medical crew. Personally I would rather have a BK117, or an EC135.
This is just my 2 cents worth and you may get differing opinions from other flight med crews.
---------------
Regards,
Iain
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Flightmedic 1
Your contribution is basically sound and accurate but for those faced with delivering an EMS service you have to do what you can with what you have got and what you can afford.
When we started the UKs first air ambulance nearly 20 years ago we were presented with a thousand reasons why it wouldn't work with a simple unstretched Bolkow 105 DB. The detractors came in every form but when it came to the crunch we managed extremely well. The DBS upgrade was obviously a step up and the 135 a step more. Training, practice, organisation and good reliable equipment all played their part. We generally did not have to fly more than 20 minutes, 30 at the most if you had a headwind. This gave us some confidence that if the patient was stabilised and prepared before leaving the ground with all necessary equipment to hand then the rucksacks could be left in the back. You worked on the basis that as a VFR service, day only, then if anything dramatic happened then you put down, shut down and sorted it on terra firma. It never happened to me but I can't speak for others.
Role changes for the 105 can be pretty instant if you rely 100% on portable equipment and pre-installed stretcher rails. The lack of on board O2 is a handicap but not a show-stopper.
G
When we started the UKs first air ambulance nearly 20 years ago we were presented with a thousand reasons why it wouldn't work with a simple unstretched Bolkow 105 DB. The detractors came in every form but when it came to the crunch we managed extremely well. The DBS upgrade was obviously a step up and the 135 a step more. Training, practice, organisation and good reliable equipment all played their part. We generally did not have to fly more than 20 minutes, 30 at the most if you had a headwind. This gave us some confidence that if the patient was stabilised and prepared before leaving the ground with all necessary equipment to hand then the rucksacks could be left in the back. You worked on the basis that as a VFR service, day only, then if anything dramatic happened then you put down, shut down and sorted it on terra firma. It never happened to me but I can't speak for others.
Role changes for the 105 can be pretty instant if you rely 100% on portable equipment and pre-installed stretcher rails. The lack of on board O2 is a handicap but not a show-stopper.
G
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Thanks guys. Just the kind of feedback I had hoped for.
It is indeed a matter of what the company can afford, and right now the 105 is it. The machine we are looking at is a CBS. It will not be used much for calls to the scene of an accident. The medical part of it is more getting patients from islands with little or no medical facilities to a bigger island with hospitals. That service is now being covered with an R44, so a 105 would be a huge leap forward.
The companys main concern is the availability of spare parts for such an old machine.
Also, in a CBS with the standard 5 seat layout, if you fill the seats and "light" luggage...how much fuel can you take?
I have been looking at the numbers, but would like some real world input.
Again, thanks a lot guys!!
It is indeed a matter of what the company can afford, and right now the 105 is it. The machine we are looking at is a CBS. It will not be used much for calls to the scene of an accident. The medical part of it is more getting patients from islands with little or no medical facilities to a bigger island with hospitals. That service is now being covered with an R44, so a 105 would be a huge leap forward.
The companys main concern is the availability of spare parts for such an old machine.
Also, in a CBS with the standard 5 seat layout, if you fill the seats and "light" luggage...how much fuel can you take?
I have been looking at the numbers, but would like some real world input.
Again, thanks a lot guys!!
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bo105 training
Anyone have an idea where I can get training in a BO105 CBS?
Preferably in the New York area, but will consider anywhere in the US.
Looked into doing the factory course, but not really possible because of dates, and the fact that I need to bring my own machine.
Preferably in the New York area, but will consider anywhere in the US.
Looked into doing the factory course, but not really possible because of dates, and the fact that I need to bring my own machine.
Join Date: Dec 2004
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Don't bother calling PHI -they will not train outside pilots. How do I know? I called and checked for you, my friend. Shouldn't you be able to receive some training from the people you're buying the aircraft from? At any rate, if you can start a JetRanger twice in a row you should be able to fly away a 105!
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thanks guys
I got an email from PHI saying they don't have any aircraft available. Is that just an excuse then?
The people we are buying it from are only selling it for the owner, so don't have any qualified instructors.
I got an email from PHI saying they don't have any aircraft available. Is that just an excuse then?
The people we are buying it from are only selling it for the owner, so don't have any qualified instructors.
Gatvol
Join Date: Jun 2000
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Your going to be looking far and wide for those. My suggestion is to go to one of the sites for one of the Major Gulf operators and get a phone number for their maintenance types.
PHI (www.phihelico.com ), Air Log/Bristow (www.bristowgroup.com ), If they dont have any they will at least know where you can get some. Make sure you have a fat wallet.
You may also contact HAI to find out which operators may use 105s over water. www.rotor.com
Good Luck.
PHI (www.phihelico.com ), Air Log/Bristow (www.bristowgroup.com ), If they dont have any they will at least know where you can get some. Make sure you have a fat wallet.
You may also contact HAI to find out which operators may use 105s over water. www.rotor.com
Good Luck.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Base 4 Helicopters in South Africa have two BO-105s equipped with pop-out-floats, which by the looks of it currently seem to be up for sale. Who knows, maybe you can work out a deal with them that you get the floats, minus the chopper(s).
ZS-RNE for sale
ZS-RNO for sale
ZS-RNE for sale
ZS-RNO for sale
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Geez, TIMTS I know you're trying to help your boss outfit his operation on a shoestring but there's something like being too cheap. New floats don't even work properly half of the time. Why don't you draw a line in the sand with your boss and demand that he spends what he has to in order to make this a safe aircraft for the job at hand. I mean, next you'll be asking here on the board for a cheap set of rotor blades, no questions asked. By the way, where are you going to be based out of?
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Thanks guys.
Thanks for the heads up on Dart. Looks like that is our solution.
As to you Revolutionary....Yes, I am trying to help start up a company on a limited budget. But I don't see the act of trying to buy a pair of used floats and having them refurbished and certified, as compromising safety. You have no idea what we are trying to do, and the rotorblade comment is uncalled for. I don't know what I have said to make it sound like I am compromising safety.
Thanks for the heads up on Dart. Looks like that is our solution.
As to you Revolutionary....Yes, I am trying to help start up a company on a limited budget. But I don't see the act of trying to buy a pair of used floats and having them refurbished and certified, as compromising safety. You have no idea what we are trying to do, and the rotorblade comment is uncalled for. I don't know what I have said to make it sound like I am compromising safety.
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TIMTS
It doesn't matter if you're a budget startup or established many years.
Good second hand,refurbed and re-certified floats are as good as new for all intents and purposes. Buying new floats is generally left as a last option, if you can't find a decent set of old but good!
Good luck with the operation ! And I hope you never the floats for real
170'
It doesn't matter if you're a budget startup or established many years.
Good second hand,refurbed and re-certified floats are as good as new for all intents and purposes. Buying new floats is generally left as a last option, if you can't find a decent set of old but good!
Good luck with the operation ! And I hope you never the floats for real
170'
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timits, one more thing, the apical / dart floats are manual inflation, cyclic release, no solenoids or squibs.
fairly straightforward install, keep in mind you will have the skid extensions as well
dr
fairly straightforward install, keep in mind you will have the skid extensions as well
dr
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TIMTS, I'm not implying that you are compromising safety, hell, a used BO 105 fitted with a used set of floats sounds like the safest thing in the world to me. I'm just saying that when it comes to your emergency equipment you have to be willing to either spend freely or accept a reduced level of safety. Yes, Apicals are great, all mechanical, no solenoids, but there have been quite a few instances in the GOM of floats malfunctioning at the most inopportune moments. And these were factory supplied units maintained and tested to the standards of a large Part 135 operator. You're going to have to test and repack these things at regular intervals, too, you know. Have you budgetted for that? If you're going with the minimum required on all this equipment you're just buying yourself a false sense of security. Even goede vrienden?
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BO105 CBS - LS upgrade
Could anyone enlighten me upon the origin and location the LS version was manufactured, and who certificated it???
I have a faint recollection these were only manufactured in Canada????
Also if anyone has heard of a 105 being upgraded post factory to the LS???
Cheers,
BR
I have a faint recollection these were only manufactured in Canada????
Also if anyone has heard of a 105 being upgraded post factory to the LS???
Cheers,
BR
Last edited by Brett Rankin; 14th Jul 2006 at 05:46.
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Yes, the BO 105 LS was a Eurocopter Canada project, with the production LS A-3 certified in '86 and entering service a year later. Used the same 'odd man out' Allison 250-C28 donk as the 206L-1 LongRanger, an uprated transmission, and has the CBS's stab aug system fitted as standard. Increased MTOW and improved performance, but it had shorter legs and a smaller cabin than the CBS. The final 'Superlifter' external-load variant ('95) featured an improved tail rotor carried over from the BK 117.
I've never heard of a non-LS aircraft being STC'd to LS specs.
I/C
I've never heard of a non-LS aircraft being STC'd to LS specs.
I/C
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Brett,
The 105LS was only manufactured in Canada the type cert is I believe held by MBB Canada.
It has Allison C28 engines ...has the PAH2 (Bk117) tailboom and uses the FS112 main Xmsn (Vs the FS72 xmsn in the std 105) and upgraded T/R gbox (=Bk117). It has the stretched airframe (per the 105 CBS).
I believe MBB will NOT allow the standard 105 CBS to be upgraded to LS standard ( I could of course be wrong!).
Cheers
The 105LS was only manufactured in Canada the type cert is I believe held by MBB Canada.
It has Allison C28 engines ...has the PAH2 (Bk117) tailboom and uses the FS112 main Xmsn (Vs the FS72 xmsn in the std 105) and upgraded T/R gbox (=Bk117). It has the stretched airframe (per the 105 CBS).
I believe MBB will NOT allow the standard 105 CBS to be upgraded to LS standard ( I could of course be wrong!).
Cheers