Wires - strikes, cutters and detectors
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I don't get it. I would have thought a valley with cables strung across it would be a no-go zone except under extreme circumstances, and then treated like a black-night IFR descent - with extreme caution.
Does anyone who knows the area better have an opinion on this? Surely it would be easier to fly right over, or through the next valley, rather than risk this sort of accident?
--
Michael.
Does anyone who knows the area better have an opinion on this? Surely it would be easier to fly right over, or through the next valley, rather than risk this sort of accident?
--
Michael.
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The report said they hit the cable car system, not ski lift cables. Anyway, it's pointless for me to make any assumptions until seeing a full accident report, I just continue to be surprised by wire strike incidents at sites like this.
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I was up in the Alps at new year, and was amazed by these choppers, always up and down, and quite often with plenty of cloud above and below them on the mountain.
Weather out there must be pretty naff out there at the moment, as there are loads of snow showers about.
A sad day.
Weather out there must be pretty naff out there at the moment, as there are loads of snow showers about.
A sad day.
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French version w/ details
Accident d'hélicoptere en Haute Savoie: deux morts, un blessé grave
CHAMONIX (AP) - Le pilote d'un hélicoptère privé et l'un de ses deux passagers ont trouvé la mort mercredi matin dans l'accident de leur appareil sur le domaine skiable des Grands Montets, à 2.600m d'altitude, au-dessus de Chamonix, a-t-on appris auprès de la gendarmerie.
Le pilote, Daniel Poujol, 59 ans, est mort sur le coup. L'un de ses passagers, Gérard Croz, un pisteur de 38 ans, est décédé des suites de ses blessures peu de temps après l'arrivée des secours. Le second passager, Jean-Bernard Petit, 55 ans, également pisteur, blessé au dos, à la cuisse et à la tête a été transporté à l'hôpital de Sallanches où ses jours ne sont pas en danger. Toutes les victimes de cet accident vivaient dans la vallée de Chamonix.
L'appareil, un écureuil B3 appartenant à la société "Chamonix Mont-Blanc Hélicoptères", effectuait du déclenchement préventif d'avalanches à l'aide d'explosifs lorsqu'il a heurté, pour une raison inconnue, les câbles du téléphérique des Grands Montets. La remontée mécanique était à l'arrêt au moment de l'accident en attendant que les pisteurs aient fini leur travail de purge des avalanches.
Une enquête sur cet accident a été ouverte par la brigade de gendarmerie des transports aériens de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry. AP
Accident d'hélicoptere en Haute Savoie: deux morts, un blessé grave
CHAMONIX (AP) - Le pilote d'un hélicoptère privé et l'un de ses deux passagers ont trouvé la mort mercredi matin dans l'accident de leur appareil sur le domaine skiable des Grands Montets, à 2.600m d'altitude, au-dessus de Chamonix, a-t-on appris auprès de la gendarmerie.
Le pilote, Daniel Poujol, 59 ans, est mort sur le coup. L'un de ses passagers, Gérard Croz, un pisteur de 38 ans, est décédé des suites de ses blessures peu de temps après l'arrivée des secours. Le second passager, Jean-Bernard Petit, 55 ans, également pisteur, blessé au dos, à la cuisse et à la tête a été transporté à l'hôpital de Sallanches où ses jours ne sont pas en danger. Toutes les victimes de cet accident vivaient dans la vallée de Chamonix.
L'appareil, un écureuil B3 appartenant à la société "Chamonix Mont-Blanc Hélicoptères", effectuait du déclenchement préventif d'avalanches à l'aide d'explosifs lorsqu'il a heurté, pour une raison inconnue, les câbles du téléphérique des Grands Montets. La remontée mécanique était à l'arrêt au moment de l'accident en attendant que les pisteurs aient fini leur travail de purge des avalanches.
Une enquête sur cet accident a été ouverte par la brigade de gendarmerie des transports aériens de Lyon-Saint-Exupéry. AP
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Google translator :
Accident of hélicoptere in High Savoy: two dead, a severely wounded person CHAMONIX (AP) - the pilot of a private helicopter and one of his two passengers found death Wednesday morning in the accident of their apparatus on the skiable field of Large Montets, with 2.600m of altitude, above Chamonix, one learned near the gendarmerie. The pilot, Daniel Poujol, 59 years, died on the blow. One of its passengers, Gerard Croz, a 38 year old tracker, is deceased continuations of its wounds little time after the arrival of the helps. The second passenger, Jean-Bernard Petit, 55 years, also tracker, wounded with the back, the thigh and the head was transported to the hospital of Sallanches where its days are not in danger. All the victims of this accident lived in the valley of Chamonix. The apparatus, a B3 squirrel pertaining to the company "Chamonix Mont Blanc Helicopters", carried out preventive release of avalanches using explosives when it ran up, for an unknown reason, the cables of the cable car of Large Montets. The ski lift was with the stop at the time of the accident while waiting for that the trackers finished their work of purging of the avalanches. An investigation into this accident was opened by the gendarmerie squad of air transports of Lyon-Saint-Exupéry. AP
Accident of hélicoptere in High Savoy: two dead, a severely wounded person CHAMONIX (AP) - the pilot of a private helicopter and one of his two passengers found death Wednesday morning in the accident of their apparatus on the skiable field of Large Montets, with 2.600m of altitude, above Chamonix, one learned near the gendarmerie. The pilot, Daniel Poujol, 59 years, died on the blow. One of its passengers, Gerard Croz, a 38 year old tracker, is deceased continuations of its wounds little time after the arrival of the helps. The second passenger, Jean-Bernard Petit, 55 years, also tracker, wounded with the back, the thigh and the head was transported to the hospital of Sallanches where its days are not in danger. All the victims of this accident lived in the valley of Chamonix. The apparatus, a B3 squirrel pertaining to the company "Chamonix Mont Blanc Helicopters", carried out preventive release of avalanches using explosives when it ran up, for an unknown reason, the cables of the cable car of Large Montets. The ski lift was with the stop at the time of the accident while waiting for that the trackers finished their work of purging of the avalanches. An investigation into this accident was opened by the gendarmerie squad of air transports of Lyon-Saint-Exupéry. AP
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I've snowboarded down past that exact spot so many times. 
wish2 - It's quite normal for helis to operate in the Grand Montets area at low heights. On a busy day one will usually see several working at quite close quarters as the need arises - the red mountain rescue and blue Gendarmerie ones seem to especially busy in the season.
It sounds like the pilot in this instance was also local, which makes it more puzzling, and maybe even sadder.
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FYI... another report:
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/163_0_1_0_C/
wish2 - It's quite normal for helis to operate in the Grand Montets area at low heights. On a busy day one will usually see several working at quite close quarters as the need arises - the red mountain rescue and blue Gendarmerie ones seem to especially busy in the season.
It sounds like the pilot in this instance was also local, which makes it more puzzling, and maybe even sadder.
-----
FYI... another report:
http://www.pistehors.com/comments/163_0_1_0_C/
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This is very sad. The passenger who died, Gérard Croz, had been the subject of a documentary that was shown on French TV in the Rhone-Alpes region the weekend before the accident.
He was a charming man, with a deep love of the mountains and a lovely sense of humour. He spoke about how he loved to work on the mountain early in the morning before the skiers arrived, and at the end of the day when they had left. Without perhaps being aware of it, he was a fine philosopher who spoke simply but profoundly about man's place in the world as he saw it.
He also spoke at length about the risks involved in his work, and about the colleagues who had died in avalanches and other accidents. He said that he hoped to live to an old age, but that if that wasn't to happen an accident on the Grands Montets mountain would be something he could understand.
The Chamonix valley is a small community, despite the thousands of tourists who flock there in winter. The Croz family are one of about half a dozen who's history in the valley can be traced back for centuries. The cemetries in Chamonix and Argentière are filled with members of this family who have died young in accidents on the mountain, and sadly their number has risen again.
The helicopter pilots in Chamonix do an incredible job in the most horrendous weather conditions. I know 2 people who would certainly be dead today if a pilot in the Chamonix valley hadn't persevered in his attempts to get a rescue team to them just before a storm arrived. It's such a shame that an accident like this gets international news coverage, while nobody ever hears of the lives they save every week. But that, I suppose, is life.
He was a charming man, with a deep love of the mountains and a lovely sense of humour. He spoke about how he loved to work on the mountain early in the morning before the skiers arrived, and at the end of the day when they had left. Without perhaps being aware of it, he was a fine philosopher who spoke simply but profoundly about man's place in the world as he saw it.
He also spoke at length about the risks involved in his work, and about the colleagues who had died in avalanches and other accidents. He said that he hoped to live to an old age, but that if that wasn't to happen an accident on the Grands Montets mountain would be something he could understand.
The Chamonix valley is a small community, despite the thousands of tourists who flock there in winter. The Croz family are one of about half a dozen who's history in the valley can be traced back for centuries. The cemetries in Chamonix and Argentière are filled with members of this family who have died young in accidents on the mountain, and sadly their number has risen again.
The helicopter pilots in Chamonix do an incredible job in the most horrendous weather conditions. I know 2 people who would certainly be dead today if a pilot in the Chamonix valley hadn't persevered in his attempts to get a rescue team to them just before a storm arrived. It's such a shame that an accident like this gets international news coverage, while nobody ever hears of the lives they save every week. But that, I suppose, is life.
"In reference to post discussing electronic wire warning device!"
I thought such a electronic device warning about wires using GPS and database already existed! or at least is under development.
EGPWS made by Honeywell.
http://www.egpws.com/index.html
Perhaps Nick Lappos can enlighten us more, I belive the unit is standard equipment in a new S-76.
I thought such a electronic device warning about wires using GPS and database already existed! or at least is under development.
EGPWS made by Honeywell.
http://www.egpws.com/index.html
Perhaps Nick Lappos can enlighten us more, I belive the unit is standard equipment in a new S-76.
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Ampitech in Montreal came up with a wire detection system that used radar, and appeared to be pretty good. It was flight tested by the Canadian National Research Council and they thought it worked well. Had a simple interface and didn't weigh too much or cost the earth.
Don't know the status of the company, but heard they may have gone under. Neat idea, but surprised it didn't get taken up by any EMS operators.
Don't know the status of the company, but heard they may have gone under. Neat idea, but surprised it didn't get taken up by any EMS operators.
Wire strikes
Just reading the latest Rotor and Wing over breakfast this morning, and by and large it was a fair read this month. In particular I was reading the article on wirestrike avoidance, and experiments in Norway to reduce the risk. So far, all good stuff, then I came to...
Is this correct? 30-36 fatalities per year would be roughly double the United Kingdom's ENTIRE GA fatal accident rate, and our population is only about 1/4 that of the USA. Compared to what is the FAA considering 30+ fatalities per year "low"?
In my own professional life I'm currently fighting to keep flying a fleet of 250 FW aircraft that have been around for about 20 years because CAA have decided on a purely theoretical analysis that there's a risk of a particular mode of fatal accident might happen one day. Surely there's something wrong here - is the information wrong, or does FAA really have such an attitude towards so many people being killed?
Can anybody offer any light on this? because right now this seems rather nonsensical.
G
Wire strikes don't kill a lot of people. In the US, for instance, they take 30-36 lives a year. While the low death rate is a good thing, it is an impediment to people seeking means of driving it even lower. At the current rate, it would be difficult to enact a regulation calling for implementation of new wire-strike avoidance gear, said David Downey, manager of the US FAA's Rotorcraft directorate".
In my own professional life I'm currently fighting to keep flying a fleet of 250 FW aircraft that have been around for about 20 years because CAA have decided on a purely theoretical analysis that there's a risk of a particular mode of fatal accident might happen one day. Surely there's something wrong here - is the information wrong, or does FAA really have such an attitude towards so many people being killed?
Can anybody offer any light on this? because right now this seems rather nonsensical.
G
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Hi GG,
check this out for example
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2003/ARG0302.pdf
p. 36 I think. Glancing very quickly I had ~45 fatals with foreign objects in flight. Bet you the majority is with wires.
There's also a lot of other similar reports on the NTSB's site.
BTW - enjoying Ray Proutty's book?
check this out for example
http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2003/ARG0302.pdf
p. 36 I think. Glancing very quickly I had ~45 fatals with foreign objects in flight. Bet you the majority is with wires.
There's also a lot of other similar reports on the NTSB's site.
BTW - enjoying Ray Proutty's book?
Okay, so the stats seems to be in the right order.
But to treat a cause of 30+ aviation fatalities, per year, in one country as insufficiently important to be actively pursuing ways of bringing the number down - I have to say that troubles me.
G
N.B. Indeed I am, it's nice to have a complete set at last.
But to treat a cause of 30+ aviation fatalities, per year, in one country as insufficiently important to be actively pursuing ways of bringing the number down - I have to say that troubles me.
G
N.B. Indeed I am, it's nice to have a complete set at last.
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Genghis:
But remember that aviation is alive and well, and very active in the USA. Lots more people flying, lots more commercial activity - much more than the ratio of population. Same thing if you compare the US to Canada - significant difference in the aviation population and activity in comparison to the total populations.
You might see how many people die in the UK every year in hill walking or sailing if people tell you how dangerous aviation is. (I'm not even going to think about driving).
But remember that aviation is alive and well, and very active in the USA. Lots more people flying, lots more commercial activity - much more than the ratio of population. Same thing if you compare the US to Canada - significant difference in the aviation population and activity in comparison to the total populations.
You might see how many people die in the UK every year in hill walking or sailing if people tell you how dangerous aviation is. (I'm not even going to think about driving).
Okay, a fair point Shawn, can we reduce it to per flying hour?
I know that the light helicopter fatal accident rate (all causes) in the UK is 1 per 53,000 hours (that was from CAA's published summary for 1990-1999). Is there an available figure for total hours flown for the US light helicopter fleet from which we can guesstimate the mean number of flying hours between fatal wirestrikes? That would offer the most meaningful perspective on it I'd suggest.
G
I know that the light helicopter fatal accident rate (all causes) in the UK is 1 per 53,000 hours (that was from CAA's published summary for 1990-1999). Is there an available figure for total hours flown for the US light helicopter fleet from which we can guesstimate the mean number of flying hours between fatal wirestrikes? That would offer the most meaningful perspective on it I'd suggest.
G
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FAAs attitude towards change. Or, is it the power companies resistance to change.
If it is anything like commercial aircraft the FAA will do a cost benefit analysis to determine if a major change to a given type of commercial aircraft is justified. In other words they will determine if it costs less to make the change than it does to cover the costs of insurance payouts (in event of a crash) the change is justified.
However in the case of wire strikes the cost of incorporation of wire strike avoidance (orange balls on the wires) is the responsibility of the power companies not the FAA. The FAA can request more orange balls but if it costs more to make the change than it does in paying out for legal claims then they won’t do it. If it can be shown that the wire strike was the fault of the pilot (pilot error) then they (the power companies) could care less. If the FAA can do a cost benefit analysis why not the power companies.
However in the case of wire strikes the cost of incorporation of wire strike avoidance (orange balls on the wires) is the responsibility of the power companies not the FAA. The FAA can request more orange balls but if it costs more to make the change than it does in paying out for legal claims then they won’t do it. If it can be shown that the wire strike was the fault of the pilot (pilot error) then they (the power companies) could care less. If the FAA can do a cost benefit analysis why not the power companies.
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Wires? What wires?
Oh ........ those wires!
Saw this in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Wisconsin when looking for something else on the net
Helicopter crashes near fuel tank
Rotor blade cuts off utility pole in accident
A $300,000 helicopter got tangled in electrical lines, cut down a utility pole and crashed just short of a 10,000-gallon fuel tank at Burlington Memorial Airport, officials said Monday.
The pilot and his passenger suffered minor injuries in the crash shortly before noon Saturday, and the pilot estimated that his helicopter was a total loss, officials said.
Airport Manager Gary Meisner said the pilot, Jeffrey Johnston, told him that he was on his way from his home in Michigan to attend an event at the Grand Geneva Resort in Lake Geneva. Meisner said the crash occurred after Johnston stopped at the airport to refuel.
After refueling, the helicopter began to lift off and got tangled in electrical wires that are about 20 feet off of the ground and about 30 yards from the pump, which holds jet fuel and 100-octane gasoline, Meisner said. The rotor blade cut down a utility pole, and the helicopter sustained other damage after it crashed near the fuel tank, he said.
Meisner said Johnston's helicopter, a Robinson-447, is worth about $300,000. Meisner said that given the entanglement with the power lines and the nearness to the fuel tanks, it was fortunate there was no fire.
Police said Johnston lives in Howell, Mich., and required no treatment for his injuries. His passenger, a woman who was not identified, was treated at Memorial Hospital of Burlington for minor injuries and released Saturday, police said.
As of 2000, the city-owned airport was handling 52,000 liftoffs and landings a year, according to the Wisconsin Bureau of Aeronautics. Most of those involved airplanes, Meisner said.
Federal Aviation Administration investigators checked the scene Saturday and released the wreckage, Meisner said. There was no indication that any mechanical problem caused the crash, he said.
"Just short" of a 10,000-gallon fuel tank?
On this occasion, the journo isn't exaggerating.
Click here for photo
Saw this in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, Wisconsin when looking for something else on the net
Helicopter crashes near fuel tank
Rotor blade cuts off utility pole in accident
A $300,000 helicopter got tangled in electrical lines, cut down a utility pole and crashed just short of a 10,000-gallon fuel tank at Burlington Memorial Airport, officials said Monday.
The pilot and his passenger suffered minor injuries in the crash shortly before noon Saturday, and the pilot estimated that his helicopter was a total loss, officials said.
Airport Manager Gary Meisner said the pilot, Jeffrey Johnston, told him that he was on his way from his home in Michigan to attend an event at the Grand Geneva Resort in Lake Geneva. Meisner said the crash occurred after Johnston stopped at the airport to refuel.
After refueling, the helicopter began to lift off and got tangled in electrical wires that are about 20 feet off of the ground and about 30 yards from the pump, which holds jet fuel and 100-octane gasoline, Meisner said. The rotor blade cut down a utility pole, and the helicopter sustained other damage after it crashed near the fuel tank, he said.
Meisner said Johnston's helicopter, a Robinson-447, is worth about $300,000. Meisner said that given the entanglement with the power lines and the nearness to the fuel tanks, it was fortunate there was no fire.
Police said Johnston lives in Howell, Mich., and required no treatment for his injuries. His passenger, a woman who was not identified, was treated at Memorial Hospital of Burlington for minor injuries and released Saturday, police said.
As of 2000, the city-owned airport was handling 52,000 liftoffs and landings a year, according to the Wisconsin Bureau of Aeronautics. Most of those involved airplanes, Meisner said.
Federal Aviation Administration investigators checked the scene Saturday and released the wreckage, Meisner said. There was no indication that any mechanical problem caused the crash, he said.
"Just short" of a 10,000-gallon fuel tank?
On this occasion, the journo isn't exaggerating.
Click here for photo
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 2nd Mar 2004 at 17:04.