Bell 206 or EC120?
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Thanks DC!
See TC i do have a peer!..your words were the last straw i have now enrolled in spelling classes, ill let you know how my progress goes
As for the thread...you will like this TC i also have limited experience in the 120 and have found it to be a nice aircraft for pax work as DC has stated, nice open cabin etc etc, its horses for courses what are you planning on doing with the machine you choose CPT Hobbs, is it mainly going to be used for the business man alone or will most of your loads be with a full compliment of passengers.
as DC has stated have you looked at a L4!
See TC i do have a peer!..your words were the last straw i have now enrolled in spelling classes, ill let you know how my progress goes
As for the thread...you will like this TC i also have limited experience in the 120 and have found it to be a nice aircraft for pax work as DC has stated, nice open cabin etc etc, its horses for courses what are you planning on doing with the machine you choose CPT Hobbs, is it mainly going to be used for the business man alone or will most of your loads be with a full compliment of passengers.
as DC has stated have you looked at a L4!
Thank you for your view Thomas..
You said:
That is exactly why I fly B-206..SAFETY! Get it?
I want to be in something that can land safely if I have engine failure which we all know can happen in all helicopters anytime and if I don´t have two engines then for sure I´m going to be in a helicopter that can autorotate safely.
I know why LTE happens and some other things that could happen to B-206 in flight and I know how to avoid those situations..! An engine failure I have no control over, it could happen when I least expect it.
New helicopter designs do not necessarily mean that they are safer in all aspects. Manufacturers do try to make them more economical to operate than the competition so customers will buy them. And boy did EC get the DOC´s wrong on the EC-120, they can say whatever they will about how economical it is but ask any operator in the field who will give you a straight answer and then find out how much it costs to run. There are loads of 120´s for sale now, I wonder why?
But don´t get me wrong, like someone said if you don´t worry to much about engine reliability and perhaps fly all the time over land and non-hostile terrain then the EC-120 is fine for passenger transport for someone who has the funds to run it. There is lot´s of people who don´t really care if it cost´s $300 or $500 pr/hr to run.
I like the B206 because it cheap to run which means I make more cash and it´s safer to fly in my area of operations.
I´m guessing that the original poster has probably gotten tired of reading the bull that´s been posted but please keep us informed what you end up buying whichever way you decide!
You said:
Join the real world eh? You can't keep flying a 40 yr old design forever....one has to move on and invest in technology with all its merits. Safety is the industry mantra now.
I want to be in something that can land safely if I have engine failure which we all know can happen in all helicopters anytime and if I don´t have two engines then for sure I´m going to be in a helicopter that can autorotate safely.
I know why LTE happens and some other things that could happen to B-206 in flight and I know how to avoid those situations..! An engine failure I have no control over, it could happen when I least expect it.
New helicopter designs do not necessarily mean that they are safer in all aspects. Manufacturers do try to make them more economical to operate than the competition so customers will buy them. And boy did EC get the DOC´s wrong on the EC-120, they can say whatever they will about how economical it is but ask any operator in the field who will give you a straight answer and then find out how much it costs to run. There are loads of 120´s for sale now, I wonder why?
But don´t get me wrong, like someone said if you don´t worry to much about engine reliability and perhaps fly all the time over land and non-hostile terrain then the EC-120 is fine for passenger transport for someone who has the funds to run it. There is lot´s of people who don´t really care if it cost´s $300 or $500 pr/hr to run.
I like the B206 because it cheap to run which means I make more cash and it´s safer to fly in my area of operations.
I´m guessing that the original poster has probably gotten tired of reading the bull that´s been posted but please keep us informed what you end up buying whichever way you decide!
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For that kind of money!!
I guess $1m is about £700K, you could of course go for a twin (AS355) wouldn't be brand new of course probably F1 / F2 but you could probably get something reasonable for that kind of money.
Gatvol
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You can't keep flying a 40 yr old design forever....one has to move on and invest in technology with all its merits
Now its a bit better, someone else suffered the problems and its a great purchase......
Same thing flys with the EC-120. Let someone else do the testing and since I see a few more buying the farm recently it is not over yet. Then maybe.
As to purchasing "new" only a proven aircraft and only then if I cannot find a clean machine that someone else has eaten the initial depreciation.
If I had the ability to purchase anyway...........
Horses for courses I guess. Jetranger if want to do a wide range of work, 120 if you mainly fly pax. 40 year old design vs new one? Who cares. Which one makes the most commercial sense, thats the bottom line. Second-hand L-4 would be much better than either.
TC, I think you will find that the tail-rotor is not an issue in the B III Jet-ranger.
I would consider someone with 1000 hours on type to have a bit of an idea. What do you consider experienced on type? Just remeber its not always total hours on type, but what you did in those hours...
TC, I think you will find that the tail-rotor is not an issue in the B III Jet-ranger.
I would consider someone with 1000 hours on type to have a bit of an idea. What do you consider experienced on type? Just remeber its not always total hours on type, but what you did in those hours...
Gatvol
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tail-rotor is not an issue in the B III Jet-ranger.
Im Still voting for an L-4
Gatvol
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Something to simply be aware of.
UH-1B, C, M etc. had the B204 airframe, wheras the D,H,V etc. had the B205 airframe.
When I transitioned from the H to the M, the first thing the IP did was take me way up in the mountains and do a 360 turn at a 50'OGE hover on a hot day (in a big LZ) Dam thing ran out of pedal. Lesson there was although it was a Huey with an L-13 etc. The tailboom was still smaller and the tail rotor cannot handle things, Hot, Heavy, High........
Back to reality, Im still voting for the L-4.........
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EC120/B206
Hello,
I believe there was a thread on the comparison of the EC120B and Bell206B in regards to training both operationally and engineering.
Anyone point us in the right direction.
Thanks
I believe there was a thread on the comparison of the EC120B and Bell206B in regards to training both operationally and engineering.
Anyone point us in the right direction.
Thanks
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It was a very short thread a long time ago when not many people had much experience of the EC120.
I suggest we start a new discussion here.
Heli_Sticktime
Sounds like you're in a good position to start the ball rolling.
Heliport
I suggest we start a new discussion here.
Heli_Sticktime
Sounds like you're in a good position to start the ball rolling.
Heliport
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I would be interested in this too, especially as these two helis are the different ways I was thinking of going after gaining my ppl(h). I Thought the EC120 was an amazing quality product after reading the magazine tests, but then I read a thread on here some months ago that was slating the EC120 battery positioning and switches, and also probs with the VEMD along with other probs.
Made me think that yes the EC120 is modern and pretty (and expensive), but maybe the 'good old' 206 might be the better bet? I would really be interested in the honest professional opinion of somebody that has flown both? Especially as I'd never get this kind of response from the sales people...."EC120 not powerful enough...? I've seen one lift a Chinook!"
You know the kind of thing.
Made me think that yes the EC120 is modern and pretty (and expensive), but maybe the 'good old' 206 might be the better bet? I would really be interested in the honest professional opinion of somebody that has flown both? Especially as I'd never get this kind of response from the sales people...."EC120 not powerful enough...? I've seen one lift a Chinook!"
You know the kind of thing.
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aging fleet replacement.. Looks like 120's get old fast...
08/00
NEWS
From the County of San Bernardino
The Board of Supervisors today authorized the sheriff to purchase two EC-120 patrol helicopters as part of a phased-in replacement of the county's aging fleet of law enforcement aircraft.
The Patrol Helicopter Replacement Program is designed to replenish the Sheriff's Department’s aging fleet of patrol helicopters over a five-year period. The EC-120 was selected after an extensive evaluation by Sheriff’s law enforcement aviation experts based upon the aircraft’s operating capabilities, maximum payload and lower operating cost. The EC-120 also costs approximately $250,000 less that the department’s other style of patrol helicopter, the McDonnell Douglas/Boeing MDH-600N.
The purchase will cost $2.28 million and will be funded from the Sheriff’s Department Special Revenue Fund Budget
01/05
SAN BERNARDINO — The Sheriff's Department is working on a plan to have a more advanced eye in the High Desert sky.
The department wants to replace its aging fleet of seven helicopters with six new models from American Eurocopter which can better handle the county's diverse geography and perform more tasks, according to the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department.
The sheriff's current primary helicopters, American Eurocopter EC120s, are not able to adequately handle the tasks required of them in San Bernardino County, officials said.
"We've been operating (the EC120s), but we've found them lacking in power," said Lt. Tom Hornsby, of the Sheriff's Aviation Division.
The Sheriff's Department's plan for replacing the fleet calls for purchasing three Eurocopter AS350 B3 helicopters, at a cost of $2.6 million per helicopter, during the 2004-05 fiscal year and another three helicopters during 2005-06, according to county reports.
The Board of Supervisors already approved the purchase of two helicopters with contingencies and with the cost of the third helicopter to be covered by revenue from the sale of the current fleet, according to county reports. However, a recommendation before the board to authorize the purchase at Tuesday's meeting was postponed until Feb. 1.
Hot summer air can steal power from the engines of the EC120s, and they are limited at performing rescues in rough terrain and mountainous areas, Hornsby said. They are also unable to carry extra passengers beyond the helicopter's crew, he said.
In addition to the four EC120s, the Sheriff's Department's Aviation Division also operates a Sikorsky H3, a McDonnell Douglas 500 and a McDonnell Douglas 600N. All seven will be sold to help cover the costs of the purchase, according to county reports.
The AS350s that the Sheriff's Department wants are common in Europe's Alpine areas. They have the extra power needed in mountainous areas and during high temperatures, Hornsby said. They can also carry three to four rescue personnel with their supplies in addition to the on-board crew.
The AS350s are also equipped with fire buckets for an initial attack during fire season and have an external hoist for dropping rescue and fire personnel in inaccessible areas, Hornsby said.
"Those are a couple of missions that we can't even think about doing with the EC120s," Hornsby said.
NEWS
From the County of San Bernardino
The Board of Supervisors today authorized the sheriff to purchase two EC-120 patrol helicopters as part of a phased-in replacement of the county's aging fleet of law enforcement aircraft.
The Patrol Helicopter Replacement Program is designed to replenish the Sheriff's Department’s aging fleet of patrol helicopters over a five-year period. The EC-120 was selected after an extensive evaluation by Sheriff’s law enforcement aviation experts based upon the aircraft’s operating capabilities, maximum payload and lower operating cost. The EC-120 also costs approximately $250,000 less that the department’s other style of patrol helicopter, the McDonnell Douglas/Boeing MDH-600N.
The purchase will cost $2.28 million and will be funded from the Sheriff’s Department Special Revenue Fund Budget
01/05
SAN BERNARDINO — The Sheriff's Department is working on a plan to have a more advanced eye in the High Desert sky.
The department wants to replace its aging fleet of seven helicopters with six new models from American Eurocopter which can better handle the county's diverse geography and perform more tasks, according to the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department.
The sheriff's current primary helicopters, American Eurocopter EC120s, are not able to adequately handle the tasks required of them in San Bernardino County, officials said.
"We've been operating (the EC120s), but we've found them lacking in power," said Lt. Tom Hornsby, of the Sheriff's Aviation Division.
The Sheriff's Department's plan for replacing the fleet calls for purchasing three Eurocopter AS350 B3 helicopters, at a cost of $2.6 million per helicopter, during the 2004-05 fiscal year and another three helicopters during 2005-06, according to county reports.
The Board of Supervisors already approved the purchase of two helicopters with contingencies and with the cost of the third helicopter to be covered by revenue from the sale of the current fleet, according to county reports. However, a recommendation before the board to authorize the purchase at Tuesday's meeting was postponed until Feb. 1.
Hot summer air can steal power from the engines of the EC120s, and they are limited at performing rescues in rough terrain and mountainous areas, Hornsby said. They are also unable to carry extra passengers beyond the helicopter's crew, he said.
In addition to the four EC120s, the Sheriff's Department's Aviation Division also operates a Sikorsky H3, a McDonnell Douglas 500 and a McDonnell Douglas 600N. All seven will be sold to help cover the costs of the purchase, according to county reports.
The AS350s that the Sheriff's Department wants are common in Europe's Alpine areas. They have the extra power needed in mountainous areas and during high temperatures, Hornsby said. They can also carry three to four rescue personnel with their supplies in addition to the on-board crew.
The AS350s are also equipped with fire buckets for an initial attack during fire season and have an external hoist for dropping rescue and fire personnel in inaccessible areas, Hornsby said.
"Those are a couple of missions that we can't even think about doing with the EC120s," Hornsby said.
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Thanks for that Rotormatic,
It illustrates just what I was asking about. I know that I am a low-hours spode compared to many on this site, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about helis the same as all of you.
There aren't as many types of helis as there are planes, but real information about them is harder to come by. As mentioned before, the mags only get to test helis when distributors give them a few hours, or an affiliated owner gives them a flight, so where's the truth?
The best (and most honest) comment I have read recently was by Dennis Kenyon in Loop, where he is talking about whether to recommend somebody to buy an Enstrom 280 or not. Brilliant and insightful because it was honest and based on professional and personal experience.
So why can't we see that on here; what about a league table, a ratings guide? Similar to the 'Good, the Bad and the Ugly' ratings that you get in some car magazines. Why won't people cough up and say what they feel about helis and types?
Is it because I is a Spode?
It illustrates just what I was asking about. I know that I am a low-hours spode compared to many on this site, but that doesn't mean that I don't care about helis the same as all of you.
There aren't as many types of helis as there are planes, but real information about them is harder to come by. As mentioned before, the mags only get to test helis when distributors give them a few hours, or an affiliated owner gives them a flight, so where's the truth?
The best (and most honest) comment I have read recently was by Dennis Kenyon in Loop, where he is talking about whether to recommend somebody to buy an Enstrom 280 or not. Brilliant and insightful because it was honest and based on professional and personal experience.
So why can't we see that on here; what about a league table, a ratings guide? Similar to the 'Good, the Bad and the Ugly' ratings that you get in some car magazines. Why won't people cough up and say what they feel about helis and types?
Is it because I is a Spode?
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Excerpt from Jane’s Defence Weekly dated 24 Jan 06
“Singapore to receive EC 120 helicopters for pilot training
Singapore Technologies Aerospace (ST Aerospace) is due late in 2006 to take delivery of six EC 120 Colibri light utility helicopters, five of which will be used to provide flight training for the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) under a SGD120 million (USD74.5 million) programme finalised in November 2005.
The public-private-partnership will see the company own and maintain the aircraft, with pilot training performed by the RSAF. Known as the Rotary Wing Course (RWC), the contract covers a period of 20 years.”
The EC 120 replaces a fleet of AS 550 Fennec’s, the military version of the AS 350B2 and is to be equipped with a Chelton EFIS cockpit.
After a very thorough evaluation the EC 120 beat the Bell 206.
“Singapore to receive EC 120 helicopters for pilot training
Singapore Technologies Aerospace (ST Aerospace) is due late in 2006 to take delivery of six EC 120 Colibri light utility helicopters, five of which will be used to provide flight training for the Republic of Singapore Air Force (RSAF) under a SGD120 million (USD74.5 million) programme finalised in November 2005.
The public-private-partnership will see the company own and maintain the aircraft, with pilot training performed by the RSAF. Known as the Rotary Wing Course (RWC), the contract covers a period of 20 years.”
The EC 120 replaces a fleet of AS 550 Fennec’s, the military version of the AS 350B2 and is to be equipped with a Chelton EFIS cockpit.
After a very thorough evaluation the EC 120 beat the Bell 206.
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EC120/B206
From my limited experience in both I can say the following
The EC120 doesn't have as much power as the 206,VEMD on the EC is good. One thing I find a help is the recording of a "gong" if you pull too much power for too long, at least you know when someone has done something bad, whereas in the 206 you wouldn't have a clue. If you're the only person flying the A/C then it's ok, but if you're at an operator that has many pilots of varying levels I would prefer to know if someone has wound the machine.
Aircon as standard in the EC is nice, specially in Africa and it seems to work well, does drip every now and then, the door ejectors are also cool if you're autorotating with an engine failure into water without floats(I know that should never happen but it just did in Cape Town a month ago and a student died)
What I don't like is that the rotors turn the other way, nothing major but as you enter an auto and you instinctivly push in the pedal/which one was it again
you sometimes get a surprise when it yaws the wrong way.
EC is also like the Squirrel, comes off one one skid first whereas the 206 comes up straight normally, you also have to give a good bit of right pedal when you're pulling power for the lift off so that you don't cause a problem (something to do with the Fenesrton effect).
Shutdown in the EC is way faster than the 206, that two mins at idle in the 206 is 30 secs in the EC, if you're doing short hops it all adds up.
Seats in the EC also have some kind of loading structure that if you come in hard in an auto they collapse a certain way to protect you, someone with more knowlege can ellaborate.
Auto's in the EC are FAST compared to the 206, the fall out the sky, the 206 seems to glide more
If I had to choose I suppose it would be the EC for me, but that's because the EC I fly only has 200hrs on it and the 206 has 3500hrs. If I really had the choice it would be an AS350.
My 5 cents
The EC120 doesn't have as much power as the 206,VEMD on the EC is good. One thing I find a help is the recording of a "gong" if you pull too much power for too long, at least you know when someone has done something bad, whereas in the 206 you wouldn't have a clue. If you're the only person flying the A/C then it's ok, but if you're at an operator that has many pilots of varying levels I would prefer to know if someone has wound the machine.
Aircon as standard in the EC is nice, specially in Africa and it seems to work well, does drip every now and then, the door ejectors are also cool if you're autorotating with an engine failure into water without floats(I know that should never happen but it just did in Cape Town a month ago and a student died)
What I don't like is that the rotors turn the other way, nothing major but as you enter an auto and you instinctivly push in the pedal/which one was it again
you sometimes get a surprise when it yaws the wrong way.EC is also like the Squirrel, comes off one one skid first whereas the 206 comes up straight normally, you also have to give a good bit of right pedal when you're pulling power for the lift off so that you don't cause a problem (something to do with the Fenesrton effect).
Shutdown in the EC is way faster than the 206, that two mins at idle in the 206 is 30 secs in the EC, if you're doing short hops it all adds up.
Seats in the EC also have some kind of loading structure that if you come in hard in an auto they collapse a certain way to protect you, someone with more knowlege can ellaborate.
Auto's in the EC are FAST compared to the 206, the fall out the sky, the 206 seems to glide more
If I had to choose I suppose it would be the EC for me, but that's because the EC I fly only has 200hrs on it and the 206 has 3500hrs. If I really had the choice it would be an AS350.
My 5 cents
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Heli Sticktime - could you define "not as much power as the 206"? And did the police helicopter mentioned above have the usual accessories attached to it to make it heavier?
Phil
Phil
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The 206 has the "bathtub" - the lower part of the fuselage - to absorb shock in a crash. I know from experience that it works. It once saved me from a broken back or worse...
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How things change...
Here is a press release from EC listing the equipment in the 120's, and another example of how things change in a short time...
Date 1/24/2000
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department Adds EC120s To Fleet
Las Vegas, Nev. - San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department will take possession of the first two EC120s to be used in Law Enforcement in the United States. These aircraft are being featured at this year's HAI convention. Two more are scheduled for delivery in mid-2000.
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department obtained its first helicopter in 1970. Over the course of the last 30 years, it has increased its fleet to 13 aircraft, including 11 civil and military surplus helicopters, and 2 fixed wing aircraft.
San Bernardino County is the largest county in the continental United States, with more than 20,000 square miles. In fact, it could hold 5 New England states within its boundaries. "We needed an aircraft that is extremely quiet, and can stay airborne for an exceptionally long time. It also had to perform well at high altitudes, as our terrain ranges all the way up to 12,500 feet," said the Department's Commander, Capt. Don Belter. "We found that the EC120 is capable in all conditions, and can stay in the air for up to 4 hours. We were impressed at how well it performed in 110-degree weather."
The department is replacing part of its fleet with the EC120, thanks to the aircraft's superior capabilities. "We checked out several aircraft in the same class, and found that nothing compares with the EC120," said Sheriff Gary Penrod.
All 14 of the pilots have already attended the training for the EC120, and everyone is excited about it. "Another reason we are especially pleased with Eurocopter is because of the professional treatment we received by everyone, from the exemplary sales staff, all the way up to American Eurocopter's President Christian Gras. "
The EC120 is the perfect multi-mission, light single-engine helicopter. Its design and performance characteristics lend itself to be well suited for a wide range of law enforcement functions, such as Patrol Support, Fire-Fighting, EMS, and SAR. These functions are all part of San Bernardino's duties in their Airborne Law Enforcement Air Support mission.
San Bernardino County's custom configuration includes a PA system installation, dual sensor (video/thermal imagery) manufactured by FLIR, as well as an Airborne Data Terminal. The FLIR system can track moving targets, while a moving map system assists the crew in navigating to any street address in Southern California.
COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO 2005 FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE PLATFORM
Amended and Updated 02-28-2005
REPLACEMENT OF AIRCRAFT Funding Request: $7,744,689
The EC-120 does not have enough power for safely conducting missions at high altitude. The EC-120 is not capable of being used as a firefighting helicopter.
During the hot summer months (peak fire season) the EC-120 is often unable to land off-site to pick-up fire command personnel for airborne assessments.
The EC-120 is also incapable of rescuing victims who are caught mid-stream in flash flood environments. Yucca Valley and Morongo Basin “monsoons” routinely result in victims being caught in flash floods and public safety personnel are required to engage in extremely dangerous ground based “swift-water” rescue efforts.
Date 1/24/2000
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department Adds EC120s To Fleet
Las Vegas, Nev. - San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department will take possession of the first two EC120s to be used in Law Enforcement in the United States. These aircraft are being featured at this year's HAI convention. Two more are scheduled for delivery in mid-2000.
San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department obtained its first helicopter in 1970. Over the course of the last 30 years, it has increased its fleet to 13 aircraft, including 11 civil and military surplus helicopters, and 2 fixed wing aircraft.
San Bernardino County is the largest county in the continental United States, with more than 20,000 square miles. In fact, it could hold 5 New England states within its boundaries. "We needed an aircraft that is extremely quiet, and can stay airborne for an exceptionally long time. It also had to perform well at high altitudes, as our terrain ranges all the way up to 12,500 feet," said the Department's Commander, Capt. Don Belter. "We found that the EC120 is capable in all conditions, and can stay in the air for up to 4 hours. We were impressed at how well it performed in 110-degree weather."
The department is replacing part of its fleet with the EC120, thanks to the aircraft's superior capabilities. "We checked out several aircraft in the same class, and found that nothing compares with the EC120," said Sheriff Gary Penrod.
All 14 of the pilots have already attended the training for the EC120, and everyone is excited about it. "Another reason we are especially pleased with Eurocopter is because of the professional treatment we received by everyone, from the exemplary sales staff, all the way up to American Eurocopter's President Christian Gras. "
The EC120 is the perfect multi-mission, light single-engine helicopter. Its design and performance characteristics lend itself to be well suited for a wide range of law enforcement functions, such as Patrol Support, Fire-Fighting, EMS, and SAR. These functions are all part of San Bernardino's duties in their Airborne Law Enforcement Air Support mission.
San Bernardino County's custom configuration includes a PA system installation, dual sensor (video/thermal imagery) manufactured by FLIR, as well as an Airborne Data Terminal. The FLIR system can track moving targets, while a moving map system assists the crew in navigating to any street address in Southern California.
COUNTY OF SAN BERNARDINO 2005 FEDERAL LEGISLATIVE PLATFORM
Amended and Updated 02-28-2005
REPLACEMENT OF AIRCRAFT Funding Request: $7,744,689
The EC-120 does not have enough power for safely conducting missions at high altitude. The EC-120 is not capable of being used as a firefighting helicopter.
During the hot summer months (peak fire season) the EC-120 is often unable to land off-site to pick-up fire command personnel for airborne assessments.
The EC-120 is also incapable of rescuing victims who are caught mid-stream in flash flood environments. Yucca Valley and Morongo Basin “monsoons” routinely result in victims being caught in flash floods and public safety personnel are required to engage in extremely dangerous ground based “swift-water” rescue efforts.