Hot refuel during Hover

[flash8]

excuse me if has come up in the past, but not knowing any rotorheads I thought here may be the best place to ask.

Can a helicopter refuel during the hover? I am assuming here Military rotary of course would need to perform this operation.

Is it difficult/safe/frequent etc? And exactly why more to the point!

Also excuse my ignorance of such things!

[Arm out the window]

Haven't heard of it, and my initial reaction is that it would be a silly and pointless thing to do, in that the increased downwash and greater likelihood of fuel spills/catastrophic accidents would make any perceived benefits not worth the added risk, particularly if you consider that if there's enough room to put a fuel supply somewhere, there's a good chance you could also land a helicopter there.
On the other hand, if there was some absolutely life and death reason that it was needed, some kind of sealed pressure refuelling system could probably work.
Maybe the yanks have already done it, they seem to trial all kinds of weird and speculative stuff 'just in case'.

[flash8]

Picture Here



Is this what I think it is? Sorry should have posted earlier but didn't know how. This is the pic that I found. Looks like a Military Rotary being refueled in the hover.

[flyer43]

flash8

Nice picture, but why would anybody want to refuel in the hover, with all the attendant increased risks, when there is a perfectly serviceable bit of ground available.
Might be of some use to increase the range of a helicopter by having fuel dumps located in the mountains where a landing might not be possible.
Will be interesting, or maybe not, to hear if anybody has some real instances of this practise.

[NickLappos]

Called HIFR (helicopter in flight refueling), it is done all the time, especially by Navy helos who can do it from ships without decks, or do not want to take the time for a deck landing, or to keep the deck clear. It takes specialized fittings and training, the hose is passed to the hovering helo, and the crewman fastens it . The fitting is usually placed near the door for ease.
Here is a Sea King, Lynx and Sea Hawk

In flight refueling of helicopter from USS De Haven

http://www.ussdehaven.org/images/and...es/image45.htm



http://home19.inet.tele.dk/sobertow/...riton/Hifr.jpg

[keepin it in trim]

Just to add to the above, have done this on several occasions to extend radius of action on SAR missions when the deck is pitching/rolling outside landing limits, or is awash. Much safer for all concerned than attempting a landing well outside limits on a highly unstable deck.

[puntosaurus]

I thought the US coastguard machines could do it air to air also. Isn't there a passage in Sebastian Junger's book The Perfect Storm about a rescue heli having to ditch after several failed attempts to dock with the probe ?

[Jim Dean]

To add to the above it is also done in the Navy when you have a deck that the aircraft cannot fit onto. A good example of this is in the Falklands when two seakings were sent with two destroyers to prosecute a suspected submarine sighting. It was too far away from their parent ships to sensibly transit back for fuel etc so they took some extra crews who stayed on the ships and then when they refueled they also changed the crews by winch. I can't remember how long they stayed airborne but it was quite some time with at least a couple of crew changes. They didn't find any submarine (not knowingly anyway) but I'm sure left a few more whales with headaches. A whale can give a sonar contact like a sub. If you're not sure then a depth charge will show you the difference!!

[flyer43]

That makes things more clear. Extending range at sea by airborne refuel from a boat certainly makes sense, particularly if the sea state/ships movement is excessive.

As for air-to-air stuff, It's probably been on PPRUNE before, but the following video clip shows how not to do it.....

Click here ----> In flight refuel incident

[ATN]

This has been done too by a Squirel during an attempt - failed - to break a distance world record for which no landing was authorized. They used a system very similar to the one in the first pic. I have seen the pic but can't remember who or when and I think it was in south Atlantic between Senegal and Brasil.

ATN

[SASless]

Punt,

The aircraft in question was an Air Force Blackhawk from the New York Air National Guard. One crewman was lost and the others were picked up by a USCG Cutter.

[goose boy]

Do you still get charged a Landing Fee?

If not might have to see if any local aerodromes offer a rotors running and aircraft airborne refuel.

[rjsquirrel]

puntosaurus and SASLESS,

The incident in the perfect storm was an aerial refueling one, the US Air Guard has C-130 refuelers as part of the BlackHawk rescue unit.

[Geoffersincornwall]

HIFR

The `Fish-heads`(sailor-types) are fond of HIFR when there are reports of enemy subs in the area. The frigates like to weave a lot and they canīt do that when you are taking off and landing on their deck. So, they briefley pause to let you hook on then they can resume weaving around whilst you tank-up. Had terrifying night in a Wessex 3 whilst the Makey Learny frigate skipper practiced the concept in the Channel off Portland.

May sound daft but it`s a bloody good technique to have up your sleeve.

[Daedal_oz]

Arm said:

Haven't heard of it, and my initial reaction is that it would be a silly and pointless thing to do, in that the increased downwash and greater likelihood of fuel spills/catastrophic accidents would make any perceived benefits not worth the added risk,

Don't you feel like you should have been paying more attention to your professional development now instead of flying around casually with your arm out of the ferkin window??

Does a helicopter taking off while still attached to the bowser count as HIFR?

[NickLappos]

Geoffersincornwall,

I have trouble with the idea that weaving the ship will help it at all, unless U-Boats are still out there with dumb, unguided torpedos. Modern subs with wire guided and automatic tracking torpedos, as well as various missiles that could care a fig if that 20 knot pile of steel (known by its nick-name, "Target") is weaving about.

Sounds like the British Navy has the same type of fellows that CAA does when they make you memorize Morse Code!

If naval ships still weave, it is probably to drive off those pesky helicopters!

[TeeS]

With reference to the thread title, can I suggest that a hot refuel during the hover is always considered to be far safer than a cold refuel in the hover.

TeeS

[offshoreigor]

Geoffersincornwall,

The notion that HIFR allows "Mother" (you're ship) to manouver is not correct. Whether you land or do a HIFR, the ship must maintain a steady flying course to maintain relative wind for the Helo.

Cheers,

OffshoreIgor

[Geoffersincornwall]

Showing my age

NIck Lappos

Well to put things into their proper context (late sixties) we were still carrying out the dreaded DIDTACS whereby a Wasp with AS 12 (range about 6000 yds) was vectored into to a night attack on a Fast Patrol Boat (supposedley fitted with ship destroying `Stxy` missiles) by a second helo (Wx3;SK) who sat at a safe distance, whilst Joe Soap flew overhead at 3000 feet and provided vital illumination (4.5 inch parachute flares). Off course nobody mentioned in the brief the fact that the FPB had highly rated AAA that could blow anything out of the sky withing 4000 yards. There was no rush to play the ILLUMINATOR!!

So Nick, what I`m saying is that escorts still were still weaving in those days, What they do now perhaps somebody can tell us.

As to the ex-Navy jock that believes that landing and HIFR bring with them the same limits all I can say is that things must have changed `cos I was that driver and believe me the brief was to open up the manoeuvring limits. We were towed around like a dog on a lead and had a tough time keeping the hose intact. This was at night too!! Maybe the envelope is not completely opened up but it was a million miles from being a steady course and speed.

[Arm out the window]

Daedal_oz,
I guess I haven't taken enough notice of what those crazy pussers get up to when they're out on the high seas...I'll have to think harder before opening my gob in future!