Local Mishap, really gets me, Grrr ....
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Local Mishap, really gets me, Grrr ....
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/dai...121573,00.html
One has to know the situation, Ruben likely yanked it up and in trying to loop it (local feeling) it just didn't happen, then the rest is obvious.
What gets me is someone with that much experience, doing something I'd sell my soul for at this point IMO pissing it away really makes me angry. Grrr .....
Disclaimer: I know we all play areound at one point or another, and non-flying ground eyewitnesses may think something is "Unsafe" when really not (think of all the phone calls for power line checkers who good intending people call local gov't to report a heli crashed in the wires, etc.) But it's fairly established that this was purely a hot dog accident. I'm not nagging at some playing here and there, but safety first.
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Marc
One has to know the situation, Ruben likely yanked it up and in trying to loop it (local feeling) it just didn't happen, then the rest is obvious.
What gets me is someone with that much experience, doing something I'd sell my soul for at this point IMO pissing it away really makes me angry. Grrr .....
Disclaimer: I know we all play areound at one point or another, and non-flying ground eyewitnesses may think something is "Unsafe" when really not (think of all the phone calls for power line checkers who good intending people call local gov't to report a heli crashed in the wires, etc.) But it's fairly established that this was purely a hot dog accident. I'm not nagging at some playing here and there, but safety first.
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Marc
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RW-1, I think it was much worse than that. Look at the following NTSB report and you'll see what I mean.
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...00FA102&akey=1
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 07 March 2001).]
http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief2.asp?...00FA102&akey=1
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Safe flying to you...
[This message has been edited by Flight Safety (edited 07 March 2001).]
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I had that one FS. It was worse, as you indicated.
I was trying to be ... heck I don't know, "light" in my display of anger. Maybe I shouldn't have.
But all those who do read that will likely feel the same way I do. A terrific job, a great heli (I had seen it in the hangar when it came in for it's 100/150/300 hour inspection on January 2, everything but the kitchen sink in it my friend ....) Bad enough I feel like it will be 7-10 years before I fly something like that (with luck) and he just pissed it away. . .
Thanks for the full link though, I need to send it off to another person I know.
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Marc
[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 08 March 2001).]
I was trying to be ... heck I don't know, "light" in my display of anger. Maybe I shouldn't have.
But all those who do read that will likely feel the same way I do. A terrific job, a great heli (I had seen it in the hangar when it came in for it's 100/150/300 hour inspection on January 2, everything but the kitchen sink in it my friend ....) Bad enough I feel like it will be 7-10 years before I fly something like that (with luck) and he just pissed it away. . .
Thanks for the full link though, I need to send it off to another person I know.
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Marc
[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 08 March 2001).]
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AS with most accidents like this. I see a pattern and some have said a long chain of indicators that, had they been broken it would not have happened. One can blame the pilot, but also it appears many of his peers also could have said something, his employer had an opportunity etc.....If you let his conduct continue it was bound to catch up to him..Unfortunatley someone else paid the price and WE all pay a further price in Insurance increases and scrutiny.
First clue should have been he was a doper.
First clue should have been he was a doper.
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To RW 1
The fact that it had all fitted to it and the kitchen sink is probably what killed him ! I was told when he did his course at MD he was very interested in the fact that an experimental 600 had been looped and rolled, but no one would tell him how (quite rightly so).
All the added weight of the news gathering kit and floats etc etc adds a lot to the basic weight (compared to the factory exp 600)so he was probably trying the impossible anyway !(However good/crazy he was!)
I think the really sad thing is that he took someone else with him, who had no control over the outcome ( I feel if you want to fly like that you should do it on your own and well away from anything, you now what can happen and if you are prepared to take the consequences fine just dont involve anyone else,but then if you get away with it what about the next person in the machine when something fails due to overstressing)
As you say GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR .
Regards
hoverbover
The fact that it had all fitted to it and the kitchen sink is probably what killed him ! I was told when he did his course at MD he was very interested in the fact that an experimental 600 had been looped and rolled, but no one would tell him how (quite rightly so).
All the added weight of the news gathering kit and floats etc etc adds a lot to the basic weight (compared to the factory exp 600)so he was probably trying the impossible anyway !(However good/crazy he was!)
I think the really sad thing is that he took someone else with him, who had no control over the outcome ( I feel if you want to fly like that you should do it on your own and well away from anything, you now what can happen and if you are prepared to take the consequences fine just dont involve anyone else,but then if you get away with it what about the next person in the machine when something fails due to overstressing)
As you say GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR .
Regards
hoverbover
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So very true, Hover & B.
I definately wouldn't (or should I say won't - 6-7 years from now if I'm lucky) be doing stuff to upset/risk the people I have to take upstairs, let alone in something I felt so lucky to be able to fly. And besides just the insurance rates, I'm sure they will look at his time and apply that to the "job" and up the hours they are comfortable with for applicants. That whole hours/experience thing. BTW on that, in the back of my mind I'm considering saving a bit of cash to go to Torrence for the factory safety course. could make a nice 3-5 day vacation. At least, sometime soon I want to do it.
I'm sure the loading of the heli did come into play as well. the local concensus was he was doing one of his cyclic climbs to hover, or trying to go over the top. Just kills me, I'll have to get off topic or i'll be really depressed this weekend ... You guys are flying for a living, I'm almost there, give or take a limb and some years.
[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 08 March 2001).]
I definately wouldn't (or should I say won't - 6-7 years from now if I'm lucky) be doing stuff to upset/risk the people I have to take upstairs, let alone in something I felt so lucky to be able to fly. And besides just the insurance rates, I'm sure they will look at his time and apply that to the "job" and up the hours they are comfortable with for applicants. That whole hours/experience thing. BTW on that, in the back of my mind I'm considering saving a bit of cash to go to Torrence for the factory safety course. could make a nice 3-5 day vacation. At least, sometime soon I want to do it.
I'm sure the loading of the heli did come into play as well. the local concensus was he was doing one of his cyclic climbs to hover, or trying to go over the top. Just kills me, I'll have to get off topic or i'll be really depressed this weekend ... You guys are flying for a living, I'm almost there, give or take a limb and some years.
[This message has been edited by RW-1 (edited 08 March 2001).]
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This incident really makes those of us in the TV news industry angry, too. Not only is it bad PR for the business--we fly over neighborhoods everyday and people fear the thought that a hunk of metal could rain down on them in THEIR town--but it also encourages the government to get involved in regulating the industry.
TV news flying is risky enough and pilots have enough legit accidents without having a pilot trying to do an unapproved, obviously unsafe move like that and taking two lives in the process. (And even if he hadn't crashed, did the pilot just assume no one would notice his aerobatics over a populated area?)
It was rumored early on in the investigation that this was no accident or failure; the pilot's reputation began to surface.
Why no one said anything before...we'll never know.
TV news flying is risky enough and pilots have enough legit accidents without having a pilot trying to do an unapproved, obviously unsafe move like that and taking two lives in the process. (And even if he hadn't crashed, did the pilot just assume no one would notice his aerobatics over a populated area?)
It was rumored early on in the investigation that this was no accident or failure; the pilot's reputation began to surface.
Why no one said anything before...we'll never know.
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I had to find this. There's an excellent article in the June 98 FlightFax on the US Army's safety website that deals with this issue. The article is on page 5.
http://safety.army.mil/pages/media/p...98archive.html
BTW, since the US Army's aviation effort is primarily helicopters, the monthly FlightFax magazines that their flight safety group puts out, are just outstanding reading. These are some of the best helicopter flight safety publications that I've ever seen anywhere. Here's a link to the main FlightFax index page.
http://safety.army.mil/pages/media/pubs/ff/
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Safe flying to you...
http://safety.army.mil/pages/media/p...98archive.html
BTW, since the US Army's aviation effort is primarily helicopters, the monthly FlightFax magazines that their flight safety group puts out, are just outstanding reading. These are some of the best helicopter flight safety publications that I've ever seen anywhere. Here's a link to the main FlightFax index page.
http://safety.army.mil/pages/media/pubs/ff/
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Safe flying to you...
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Apparently quite a few people around Tamiami Airport who had seen Ruben fly were waiting for the "when" he crashes not "if" he crashes. The Doctor who was flying the Robby next to him saw the whole thing and needless to say he and his passenger needed some urgent counselling.
From what I understand that aircraft had a large ballast weight in the tailboom because of all the weight up front, not sure if thats correct but that was something I heard.
PR
From what I understand that aircraft had a large ballast weight in the tailboom because of all the weight up front, not sure if thats correct but that was something I heard.
PR
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To Pac Rotors
Yes it is highly possible that there was upto 30 lbs(I think its pounds but could be kilos)in the tail, this weight ,as you say, can be added when the avionics/news gathering/mission kit is such that the c of g suffers. If you look at the 600 virtually all the weight that can be added, pax bags etc is in front of the mast. The weight is fitted to bring it back within the realms of workable c of g, and is added under a collar inside the tailboom just forward of the rotating dustbin,on a specific mounting for the purpose. And the internal collar ensures airflow thru the tube is not effected.
So it wasn't really a strange thing that it had the weight in the tail, in actual fact I think most of them have, and must have if fitted with the amount of kit this particular 600 had.
Regards
hoverbover
Yes it is highly possible that there was upto 30 lbs(I think its pounds but could be kilos)in the tail, this weight ,as you say, can be added when the avionics/news gathering/mission kit is such that the c of g suffers. If you look at the 600 virtually all the weight that can be added, pax bags etc is in front of the mast. The weight is fitted to bring it back within the realms of workable c of g, and is added under a collar inside the tailboom just forward of the rotating dustbin,on a specific mounting for the purpose. And the internal collar ensures airflow thru the tube is not effected.
So it wasn't really a strange thing that it had the weight in the tail, in actual fact I think most of them have, and must have if fitted with the amount of kit this particular 600 had.
Regards
hoverbover
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Sorry to sound naive, but why did they let him fly professionally if he had a criminal record?
If he is to be let lose as P1 (esp with passengers), then surely he must be trustworthy?
Maybe he concealed his record to get the job?
Not having a pop at anyone, just puzzled......
If he is to be let lose as P1 (esp with passengers), then surely he must be trustworthy?
Maybe he concealed his record to get the job?
Not having a pop at anyone, just puzzled......
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To PR
Just checked in the tech bulletin (1999) it is either 10, 20 or 30 lbs depending on requirement.
To DPW
If you think thats bad the tail boom has to accept full rudder deflection at VNE in .5 of a second, that is why at the moment the 600 is limited to 135KIAS in the UK as the stress rig broke before the tail !!!!!!(so I am told)
regards
hoverbover
Just checked in the tech bulletin (1999) it is either 10, 20 or 30 lbs depending on requirement.
To DPW
If you think thats bad the tail boom has to accept full rudder deflection at VNE in .5 of a second, that is why at the moment the 600 is limited to 135KIAS in the UK as the stress rig broke before the tail !!!!!!(so I am told)
regards
hoverbover
