Gazelle Crash
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Sadly yes. Hope the link works. If not try manual input.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1661818.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/...00/1661818.stm
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Very, very sad indeed,
Being a lowly PPL I need to gather as much information as I can, for the selfish preservation of my life, effectivly gaining experience of incidents from others, I know it is not possible to say why that Gazelle hit the ground, but it does look like the unfortunate pilot had little time to react to whatever situation arose in the way that the wreckage is contained into such a small area, I am not trying to be gory or even looking for any apportionment of blame , but would the picture shown on the previous post indicate a fast, low alt irrecoverable incident.
I hope you highly experienced pilots out there don't take offence at my question!
Being a lowly PPL I need to gather as much information as I can, for the selfish preservation of my life, effectivly gaining experience of incidents from others, I know it is not possible to say why that Gazelle hit the ground, but it does look like the unfortunate pilot had little time to react to whatever situation arose in the way that the wreckage is contained into such a small area, I am not trying to be gory or even looking for any apportionment of blame , but would the picture shown on the previous post indicate a fast, low alt irrecoverable incident.
I hope you highly experienced pilots out there don't take offence at my question!
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VFR Pilot,
I have two points, first I wasn't there and second, have not seen or heard of the accident by any other medium. I make my comments based on experience attending helicopter accidents and being an experienced helo driver who, has also flown at "schools, fetes, open days, air shows and military airfields".
Ok, my point is the photograph on its own appears inconclusive, other than to say a steep angle of impact, very little damage to the tailboom and fenestron section. Also the transmission and rotor blades do not appear visible, to me anyhow. Wirestrike? I can't say, but what I can definatly say is that the paragraph about a display to army cadets is the very interesting part. You see, at airshows and the like, where an opportunity to throw the aircraft around a little comes up, pilots tend to go a little farther than they should...I can't say that is the cause of this accident, all I am saying that is from my experience, a lot of pilots do things they absolutely should not do, period. If I ever had the urge to do wingovers, low flying, or just to throw the helo around, I would do it with a check and training pilot or senior pilot or chief pilot. No passengers. This would be the best way to complete the urge before you got the helo into unrecoverable situations. I also found that once the abovementioned pilot demonstrated one, without you being on the controls, it was pretty damn scary, subsequently, the next one I demonstrated was far more reserved and sedate.
I have no idea what happened to Capt Hall, but I would suggest that the investigators will take that into account.
I also note that he had been at the School and was returning to his base, and the accident may have occurred away from and out of sight of the Cadets. I just thought it might be a factor, I do not know.
Also, you are not a lowly PPL pilot, you are a PPL pilot. We all start with nothing, and anything that is useful to you will benefit you one day. Your question to experienced pilots is commendable, I beleive no one would take offence at that summary.
If you get the urge to do something that you don't feel safe doing, take a go around every time, and grab an instructor to show you any manouvers you would like to try....... just my two cents.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: sling load ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: sling load ]
I have two points, first I wasn't there and second, have not seen or heard of the accident by any other medium. I make my comments based on experience attending helicopter accidents and being an experienced helo driver who, has also flown at "schools, fetes, open days, air shows and military airfields".
Ok, my point is the photograph on its own appears inconclusive, other than to say a steep angle of impact, very little damage to the tailboom and fenestron section. Also the transmission and rotor blades do not appear visible, to me anyhow. Wirestrike? I can't say, but what I can definatly say is that the paragraph about a display to army cadets is the very interesting part. You see, at airshows and the like, where an opportunity to throw the aircraft around a little comes up, pilots tend to go a little farther than they should...I can't say that is the cause of this accident, all I am saying that is from my experience, a lot of pilots do things they absolutely should not do, period. If I ever had the urge to do wingovers, low flying, or just to throw the helo around, I would do it with a check and training pilot or senior pilot or chief pilot. No passengers. This would be the best way to complete the urge before you got the helo into unrecoverable situations. I also found that once the abovementioned pilot demonstrated one, without you being on the controls, it was pretty damn scary, subsequently, the next one I demonstrated was far more reserved and sedate.
I have no idea what happened to Capt Hall, but I would suggest that the investigators will take that into account.
I also note that he had been at the School and was returning to his base, and the accident may have occurred away from and out of sight of the Cadets. I just thought it might be a factor, I do not know.
Also, you are not a lowly PPL pilot, you are a PPL pilot. We all start with nothing, and anything that is useful to you will benefit you one day. Your question to experienced pilots is commendable, I beleive no one would take offence at that summary.
If you get the urge to do something that you don't feel safe doing, take a go around every time, and grab an instructor to show you any manouvers you would like to try....... just my two cents.
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: sling load ]
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: sling load ]
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Slingload
I put in the lowly bit because I feel that I am well down the ladder as to the experience that you Pro's have, I didn't mean I felt unable to comprehend, or improve, its just that I have a great respect for you high time and mil pilots, who are willing to explains things to people like me, by the way I dont think ever in my wildest moments would I purposely manouver or put any Heli I was flying into a situation that made me feel uncomfortable or not in control, I hope that doesn't make me sound boring! Thank you for your answer.
My Regards
I put in the lowly bit because I feel that I am well down the ladder as to the experience that you Pro's have, I didn't mean I felt unable to comprehend, or improve, its just that I have a great respect for you high time and mil pilots, who are willing to explains things to people like me, by the way I dont think ever in my wildest moments would I purposely manouver or put any Heli I was flying into a situation that made me feel uncomfortable or not in control, I hope that doesn't make me sound boring! Thank you for your answer.
My Regards
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My condolences to Simons family and friends.
Surely it can't be another Tie Bar failure? After the Lynx crash at Mendig in September 1994 we were all assured that it was a one off that would not be repeated...........Then,
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Fortyodd ]
Surely it can't be another Tie Bar failure? After the Lynx crash at Mendig in September 1994 we were all assured that it was a one off that would not be repeated...........Then,
[ 20 November 2001: Message edited by: Fortyodd ]
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Baranfin,
Without wishing to get too technical, the tie bar is a flexible "Joint" which connects the rotor blade to the head or head extension arms. Used on both the Lynx and Gazelle, amongst others. Obviously it has to be very strong in order to deal with the considerable centrifugal loads placed upon it. It also has to be flexible enough to allow for the flapping and twisting motion of the blades as they fly through the air. Originally there were thought to be so "over engineered" that they would never fail under normal use. Sadly, in September 1994, this proved not to be the case and two AAC crew died when a Lynx main rotor blade departed the aircraft in flight. Wastelands then went to great lengths to assure all of us flying the Lynx at the time that it was a one off failure and reduced inspection times, combined with better quality control, would ensure that it would not happen again. Then.
Without wishing to get too technical, the tie bar is a flexible "Joint" which connects the rotor blade to the head or head extension arms. Used on both the Lynx and Gazelle, amongst others. Obviously it has to be very strong in order to deal with the considerable centrifugal loads placed upon it. It also has to be flexible enough to allow for the flapping and twisting motion of the blades as they fly through the air. Originally there were thought to be so "over engineered" that they would never fail under normal use. Sadly, in September 1994, this proved not to be the case and two AAC crew died when a Lynx main rotor blade departed the aircraft in flight. Wastelands then went to great lengths to assure all of us flying the Lynx at the time that it was a one off failure and reduced inspection times, combined with better quality control, would ensure that it would not happen again. Then.
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Another good friend lost due to no fault of his own. He will be missed by all.
VFR pilot, the accident happened due to a blade falling off, similar case in Italy just 8 weeks ago apparently. Already FRCs have been ammended including torsion bar break screws inspection before and after each flt. The fact remains that accidents happen, in this game I have been told that if it hasnt happened already then standby because it is about to. ( That is why mil Helo pilots are moody, just waiting for something bad to happen.)
Sling load -- take your head out of your ass, speculation with regards to your wing overs (un authed? )is an extremely stupid accusation WERE YOU THERE? I doubt it.
Having flown gazelles for a number of years with no major problems no one was more surprised than me to hear that it was a torsion bar failure, the Army pilots are a lot more professional than showing off at a school- believe me.
VFR if you want to email with regards to any questions queries thoughts then I would be more than happy to help.
AVIATE NAVIGATE COMMUNICATE ANNIHILATE.
VFR pilot, the accident happened due to a blade falling off, similar case in Italy just 8 weeks ago apparently. Already FRCs have been ammended including torsion bar break screws inspection before and after each flt. The fact remains that accidents happen, in this game I have been told that if it hasnt happened already then standby because it is about to. ( That is why mil Helo pilots are moody, just waiting for something bad to happen.)
Sling load -- take your head out of your ass, speculation with regards to your wing overs (un authed? )is an extremely stupid accusation WERE YOU THERE? I doubt it.
Having flown gazelles for a number of years with no major problems no one was more surprised than me to hear that it was a torsion bar failure, the Army pilots are a lot more professional than showing off at a school- believe me.
VFR if you want to email with regards to any questions queries thoughts then I would be more than happy to help.
AVIATE NAVIGATE COMMUNICATE ANNIHILATE.
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I.P Stop
Any offence that you have taken I apologise for, my post clearly points out I was not there, and I also pointed out that I did not know what caused the accident, and I made very clear reference to the PRESS RELEASE. I also stated that I was referring only to that medium and had seen NO other articles on the accident. If you think I was trying to make an accusation I apologise. There was no accusation. Merely that investigators would take that into account.
I was attempting to pass on some valuable lessons that I and I assume both of you have also experienced. I have flown with two ex British Army Pilots and have nothing but respect for both of them, I pointed out also that I had no knowledge of where the accident took place and that that may not even be an issue.
My pointing out of pilot over exuberance was merely to demonstrate some facts. If either of you have taken that as me trying to accuse Capt Hall of anything, again I apologise, to all pruners.
Ive lost mates in helos too.
Any offence that you have taken I apologise for, my post clearly points out I was not there, and I also pointed out that I did not know what caused the accident, and I made very clear reference to the PRESS RELEASE. I also stated that I was referring only to that medium and had seen NO other articles on the accident. If you think I was trying to make an accusation I apologise. There was no accusation. Merely that investigators would take that into account.
I was attempting to pass on some valuable lessons that I and I assume both of you have also experienced. I have flown with two ex British Army Pilots and have nothing but respect for both of them, I pointed out also that I had no knowledge of where the accident took place and that that may not even be an issue.
My pointing out of pilot over exuberance was merely to demonstrate some facts. If either of you have taken that as me trying to accuse Capt Hall of anything, again I apologise, to all pruners.
Ive lost mates in helos too.
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Link to the Airworthiness Directive issued by the FAA re Gazelle and Dauphin.
Airworthiness Directive
Airworthiness Directive
