HUET recency.
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HUET recency.
I have done a few HUET courses now am I am beginning to wonder whether the 2 year recency requirement isn't a bit over the top. While I wouldn't be stupid enough to say I know it all I think that it maybe should be a bit more relaxed after a few goes. Say, after 3, the requirement is 3 years instead of 2. The course itself is one of the most beneficial things I personally have done but I think that they could extend the valadility after a while. It's not the cheapest exercise either.
I would like to know what others think
I would like to know what others think
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I like doing them as often as is required, it is amazing how much one keeps forgetting, also it depends on the course but our last one was a bit rushed.
I wish though we could crack on with STASS.
I wish though we could crack on with STASS.
Thread Starter
I kind of agree with you in a way. You can never have too much of a good thing. That shot of chlorinated water up the snozzer is a bastard though. There could be other ways to remind us of those things forgotten. Maybe a theory course to freshen up instaed of the whole deal.
Forgive my ignorance but what is STASS? Is ia a UK thing?
Forgive my ignorance but what is STASS? Is ia a UK thing?
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I guess you are right one could do a refresher in the classroom after 2 years and then go back in the water the following year or some timing like that. I used to use my survival suit which I fly in and stayed 99% dry which cut down on the drag of undressing and all that.
Stass is where you take with you a little Oxygen bottle like James Bond or Pamela Anderson on Baywatch duty which is like a miniature Diving outfit. So you can breath for 5 minutes under water. i have done my HUET once with it 6 years ago because it looked like we were going to get it but nothing came of it though I am told Aberdeen are thinking about it again so we should get it in the next 100 years then.
The two Dauphin's in Plymouth who who supply the Navy ship's with personnel and stuff have STASS because the Navy requires them to have it. So it is perfectly possible to have.
Stass is where you take with you a little Oxygen bottle like James Bond or Pamela Anderson on Baywatch duty which is like a miniature Diving outfit. So you can breath for 5 minutes under water. i have done my HUET once with it 6 years ago because it looked like we were going to get it but nothing came of it though I am told Aberdeen are thinking about it again so we should get it in the next 100 years then.
The two Dauphin's in Plymouth who who supply the Navy ship's with personnel and stuff have STASS because the Navy requires them to have it. So it is perfectly possible to have.
Thread Starter
I spoke to the last instructor who conducted the HUET about the under water breathing apparatus. His organisation don't and in his words "never will" train people to use it. He said it is too complicated and time consuming. Even more so than scuba diving. I am a bit of an ametuer when it comes to underwater and this fella was an ex-navy crewie with a ****load of experience so I took his word for it.
I would feel very comfortable having one of those little numbers on me and the ability to use it.
It would have to be on you yeah? It would be a little more complicated if you had to search around a dark cockpit for it considering it would be most beneficial if you did happen to get disorientated.
I would feel very comfortable having one of those little numbers on me and the ability to use it.
It would have to be on you yeah? It would be a little more complicated if you had to search around a dark cockpit for it considering it would be most beneficial if you did happen to get disorientated.
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I didn't get any training on it all they said: Stick it in your mouth and breath through your mouth and now we are dunking you ready or not. That was it.
But yes it has to be on you otherwise you might not find it.
But yes it has to be on you otherwise you might not find it.
I believe you are talking about two different pieces of kit here. The basic one is a 're-breather' when you exhale and inhale out of a bag (as exhaled air still has about 80% oxygen content). Fairly basic, not much training required.
The second one is a mini 'aqua-lung', i.e. bottle of compressed air. Our helicopter pilots were issued them (CHC) and hey-presto, they were taken off them again. I believe it was due to product liability, training, legal stuff.
The second one is a mini 'aqua-lung', i.e. bottle of compressed air. Our helicopter pilots were issued them (CHC) and hey-presto, they were taken off them again. I believe it was due to product liability, training, legal stuff.
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Hi Guys,
There was a Lynx crash in Bosnia a few years back. 5 POB. Only one survivor. It crashed into the Adriatic after clipping a blade in the water and sank.
All the crew were HUET and STASS trained. The guy who survived was 1 of 3 passenger's in the back. He was not aircrew but used to drive guys to the HUET every 3 months or so. So as to avoid bordem waiting for the others he asked if he could jump in as well, so ended up doing the HUET VERY regularly!!!!! As you can see he was probably the most recent guy in the Lynx at the time and probably the unit.
The Capt did get out and surfaced, however, he tried to go back down to free the others and became trapped.
Food for thought???
Also STASS (Short Term Air Supply System) is awesome. I could get about 5 mins out of a cylinder ( in a nice warm pool with no stress!!!) would guess about 30 secs in cold water and flapping!!
Cheers
L'
There was a Lynx crash in Bosnia a few years back. 5 POB. Only one survivor. It crashed into the Adriatic after clipping a blade in the water and sank.
All the crew were HUET and STASS trained. The guy who survived was 1 of 3 passenger's in the back. He was not aircrew but used to drive guys to the HUET every 3 months or so. So as to avoid bordem waiting for the others he asked if he could jump in as well, so ended up doing the HUET VERY regularly!!!!! As you can see he was probably the most recent guy in the Lynx at the time and probably the unit.
The Capt did get out and surfaced, however, he tried to go back down to free the others and became trapped.
Food for thought???
Also STASS (Short Term Air Supply System) is awesome. I could get about 5 mins out of a cylinder ( in a nice warm pool with no stress!!!) would guess about 30 secs in cold water and flapping!!
Cheers
L'
Thread Starter
The aqua-lung is the one I was referring to and that is exactly what the instuctor said, too hard when it comes to liability etc.
It would be handy if you could just buy one to have for your own peace of mind but the authorities won't allow you to have it on your lifejacket without all the proper approvals etc.
Maybe the guy in the Lynx proved the more you do the HUET the better hey?
I guess it all very much depends on the individual as well. I have done the course with blokes that have done it 6 or 7 times before and they are still unbuckling in the roll and quite happy to kick you in the teeth on their way out if you get in their way(Which is normally not a problem as you are still tryng to find your exit when they hit the surface!).
On the the other hand there are first timers who are calm and do it by the book right from the start.
It is all different in the cold deep blue in a real machine of course but it may serve as a good indication none the less.
THat's very unfortunate about the Capt. He didn't have to go back down but he chose to. Was the machine inverted on the surface or was it sinking?
It would be handy if you could just buy one to have for your own peace of mind but the authorities won't allow you to have it on your lifejacket without all the proper approvals etc.
Maybe the guy in the Lynx proved the more you do the HUET the better hey?
I guess it all very much depends on the individual as well. I have done the course with blokes that have done it 6 or 7 times before and they are still unbuckling in the roll and quite happy to kick you in the teeth on their way out if you get in their way(Which is normally not a problem as you are still tryng to find your exit when they hit the surface!).
On the the other hand there are first timers who are calm and do it by the book right from the start.
It is all different in the cold deep blue in a real machine of course but it may serve as a good indication none the less.
THat's very unfortunate about the Capt. He didn't have to go back down but he chose to. Was the machine inverted on the surface or was it sinking?
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I was talking about the Aqua-lung.
When it happens for real you might react quite differently, but if you keep training the body won't the body be better equipped for the incident even if it is done in a nice warm flat swimming pool?
When it happens for real you might react quite differently, but if you keep training the body won't the body be better equipped for the incident even if it is done in a nice warm flat swimming pool?
Thread Starter
It's just extra help isn't it. All the help you can get is a good thing in that situation.
As with the case of the poor fella in Bosnia, particularly if your pax aren't huet trained, there is a bloody good chance that you will be going back down to try and retrieve them. Even if you didn't utilise the aqua lung on your egress it could be very helpful in that situation.
As with the case of the poor fella in Bosnia, particularly if your pax aren't huet trained, there is a bloody good chance that you will be going back down to try and retrieve them. Even if you didn't utilise the aqua lung on your egress it could be very helpful in that situation.
We use it for our searches coastal and over very large lakes!
Train in it every 3 yrs with the HUET course in Fleetwood.
God send! Makes life a lot calmer under water in the dark..gives you that extra reserve to draw on to identify any snagging hazards as you try to egress...prevents you from panicking.
2 mins full in warm water and max 30 secs cold panicking.
Strapped into a pouch on our mae west.
I know of 3 persons whose lives were saved by STASS.
Wouldnt fly over water (prolonged) without it now I suppose.
Train in it every 3 yrs with the HUET course in Fleetwood.
God send! Makes life a lot calmer under water in the dark..gives you that extra reserve to draw on to identify any snagging hazards as you try to egress...prevents you from panicking.
2 mins full in warm water and max 30 secs cold panicking.
Strapped into a pouch on our mae west.
I know of 3 persons whose lives were saved by STASS.
Wouldnt fly over water (prolonged) without it now I suppose.
Thread Starter
I would not be surprised if it becomes a mandatory requirement like life jackets one day in the not too distant future for some authorities. This wouldn't be such a bad thing for the crews out there.
One of the operators in the southern half of Aust. had the initiative to purchase the aqua-lung and have it stowed in their switliks and CASA ( Civil Aviation Safety Authority) discovered this and made them remove them all due to having no approval to do so.
That was a fair while ago and I believe they are still battling through mountains of paperwork to get it approved.
You would think that they would support such an initiative and get it approved as soon as possible in the name of safety considering that is there sole purpose.
Anything that gives you extra time under water has got to be worth its weight in gold. I guess there is no-one around that wishes they had one!
One of the operators in the southern half of Aust. had the initiative to purchase the aqua-lung and have it stowed in their switliks and CASA ( Civil Aviation Safety Authority) discovered this and made them remove them all due to having no approval to do so.
That was a fair while ago and I believe they are still battling through mountains of paperwork to get it approved.
You would think that they would support such an initiative and get it approved as soon as possible in the name of safety considering that is there sole purpose.
Anything that gives you extra time under water has got to be worth its weight in gold. I guess there is no-one around that wishes they had one!
This could be the go as well:
http://www.spareair.com/product/models.htm#model170
A little bit simpler than the Aqua-lung bottle, with you not having to fumble around for the regulator. Either one would be better than nothing though, should you get tangled or have to go back under to free the pax.
BM
http://www.spareair.com/product/models.htm#model170
A little bit simpler than the Aqua-lung bottle, with you not having to fumble around for the regulator. Either one would be better than nothing though, should you get tangled or have to go back under to free the pax.
BM
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inverted, submerged & frazzled
I used to act as a safety/rescue diver for a HUET training team in Sydney (I think they were based out of Woolongong).
The majority of the clients that I experienced were news crews; Journo's, cameramen, sound guys etc. & with the pilots in there for good measure.
Every time at least one person (the pilots included but less frequent) would get complacent about it & lose the plot when something out of their comfort zone occured, usually a nosefull of water when they weren't really expecting it.
At which point all training would go out the window, literally, discarding everything that they had just been taught & had practised several times & this was 'just another drill' most were always mumbling "how many of these do we have to do?"
In short I don't believe that you can ever have enough practise at this.
Regardless of how many drills were made by the same individuals, in exactly the same sequence, and all in a controlled environment, (& with the knowledge that there was a safety diver present with a emergency 'pony' bottle underwater & at the ready) particularly when an additional variable was thrown at them, like tipping forward instead of sideways etc.
These incidents were usually well into the training so they had had plenty of practise, but before we had really started throwing any curly problems at them, like not telling them which way the fuselage was going to roll or which door was going to malfunction/jam.
Even for those who don't make a habit of flying over water regularly, heve never ventured offshore or over any other significant body of water, I'd suggest that if the opportunity comes up to attend some HUET training jump at the opportunity, even if you have no requirement for renewal, I guarantee it will change the way you look at a body of water when next you fly over the top of one.(read fly around the bloody thing, or at least with enough height to auto to either side in case of power failure)
& for those of you who fly without a helmet, you are drastically raising the odds against yourself, especially when you consider about bouncing yourself around a cockpit at the point of contact with the water, which then turns into a watery tomb.
I have heard several stories of pilots in HUET training that still freak out, having had the misfortune of experiencing the real thing without prior training , & pretty much run over anything or anyone in their way to get out, fellow pilots included.
If the army taught me one thing, it was "as you train, so shall you fight"
No point pretending to do anything, because when the real thing occurs it will be nothing like the nice clean (& warm) 10' swimming pool you trained in, but that exposure & knowledge will probably get you home to loved ones.
after all it only takes a couple of inches of water to drown in...
for those of you pursuing the personal bottles, i commend you, but make sure it's located appropriately on your personal kit & on a extending lanyard so you don't need to hunt for it& won't lose it, for those of you who are not divers, might I recommend that you get some dive theory up, even go & do a recreational dive course if you like, because that first 10 meters is the most lethal, if the aircraft impacts & sinks quickly (for any reason) & you exit the aircraft at depth (within even 5 meters) & you are relying on the bottle, only use it to get yourself out, once you are out of the aircraft & headed for the surface, I'd recommend to anyone to remove the bottle & blow bubbles continuously to the surface.
The last thing you want to do is survive a water impact, only to self inflict a pressure related injury like a barotrauma or the bends.
(& before anyone ridicules it I've seen well trained divers get the bends from diving in & ascending too fast from a mere 4.2 meters.
Fly safe.
The majority of the clients that I experienced were news crews; Journo's, cameramen, sound guys etc. & with the pilots in there for good measure.
Every time at least one person (the pilots included but less frequent) would get complacent about it & lose the plot when something out of their comfort zone occured, usually a nosefull of water when they weren't really expecting it.
At which point all training would go out the window, literally, discarding everything that they had just been taught & had practised several times & this was 'just another drill' most were always mumbling "how many of these do we have to do?"
In short I don't believe that you can ever have enough practise at this.
Regardless of how many drills were made by the same individuals, in exactly the same sequence, and all in a controlled environment, (& with the knowledge that there was a safety diver present with a emergency 'pony' bottle underwater & at the ready) particularly when an additional variable was thrown at them, like tipping forward instead of sideways etc.
These incidents were usually well into the training so they had had plenty of practise, but before we had really started throwing any curly problems at them, like not telling them which way the fuselage was going to roll or which door was going to malfunction/jam.
Even for those who don't make a habit of flying over water regularly, heve never ventured offshore or over any other significant body of water, I'd suggest that if the opportunity comes up to attend some HUET training jump at the opportunity, even if you have no requirement for renewal, I guarantee it will change the way you look at a body of water when next you fly over the top of one.(read fly around the bloody thing, or at least with enough height to auto to either side in case of power failure)
& for those of you who fly without a helmet, you are drastically raising the odds against yourself, especially when you consider about bouncing yourself around a cockpit at the point of contact with the water, which then turns into a watery tomb.
I have heard several stories of pilots in HUET training that still freak out, having had the misfortune of experiencing the real thing without prior training , & pretty much run over anything or anyone in their way to get out, fellow pilots included.
If the army taught me one thing, it was "as you train, so shall you fight"
No point pretending to do anything, because when the real thing occurs it will be nothing like the nice clean (& warm) 10' swimming pool you trained in, but that exposure & knowledge will probably get you home to loved ones.
after all it only takes a couple of inches of water to drown in...
for those of you pursuing the personal bottles, i commend you, but make sure it's located appropriately on your personal kit & on a extending lanyard so you don't need to hunt for it& won't lose it, for those of you who are not divers, might I recommend that you get some dive theory up, even go & do a recreational dive course if you like, because that first 10 meters is the most lethal, if the aircraft impacts & sinks quickly (for any reason) & you exit the aircraft at depth (within even 5 meters) & you are relying on the bottle, only use it to get yourself out, once you are out of the aircraft & headed for the surface, I'd recommend to anyone to remove the bottle & blow bubbles continuously to the surface.
The last thing you want to do is survive a water impact, only to self inflict a pressure related injury like a barotrauma or the bends.
(& before anyone ridicules it I've seen well trained divers get the bends from diving in & ascending too fast from a mere 4.2 meters.
Fly safe.
Last edited by gadgetguru; 17th Sep 2005 at 00:26.
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The Lynx (as I know) was inverted and sinking when the Capt went back down. He got snagged on something and dragged down. Very sad.
GG
Here, Here
I do not think any amount of training for this type of thing is enough. The more the better.
L'
GG
Here, Here
I do not think any amount of training for this type of thing is enough. The more the better.
L'
Thread Starter
That was a great deal of useful information in one post. You are the gadgetguru!
I would never have thought that you could be effected by ascending from that depth.
After reading all the info in this thread I have now decided that I will be doing all the HUET courses I can. Better too much than not enough yeah.
I have performed quite well in all my HUET courses and never been in a situation of panic but it is a bit arragont to not see that the only reason I haven't is because nothing has gone wrong for me.
Though you wish it to go smoothly a snagged life jacket or shoe would probably do you the world of good in a controlled situation like that.
The helmet issue is very true, it should be used whenever possible. Tourist flying is probably the only thing where you can't use one. Well you can but you will have every second Joe asking you why they don't have one or why you need one.
I would never have thought that you could be effected by ascending from that depth.
After reading all the info in this thread I have now decided that I will be doing all the HUET courses I can. Better too much than not enough yeah.
I have performed quite well in all my HUET courses and never been in a situation of panic but it is a bit arragont to not see that the only reason I haven't is because nothing has gone wrong for me.
Though you wish it to go smoothly a snagged life jacket or shoe would probably do you the world of good in a controlled situation like that.
The helmet issue is very true, it should be used whenever possible. Tourist flying is probably the only thing where you can't use one. Well you can but you will have every second Joe asking you why they don't have one or why you need one.
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As part of my sport diving kit I have a Bouyancy Compensation Device, which is basically an inflatable waste coat that plugs into my main cylinder. Built into the BCD is a small (pony) cylinder and regulator valve. If my main cylinder runs out, it shouldn't, I can use the air in the pony cyclinder for both bouyancy and life support.
Would it not be possible to develop something like this, but not so bulky, for heli crews flying over water?
H.
Would it not be possible to develop something like this, but not so bulky, for heli crews flying over water?
H.