Birds
Join Date: Dec 2001
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One of my collegues had a swallow go through the wind screen and landed on his passenger's lap. The helicopter being a Schweizer 330.
Another good reason to wear a helmet.
Safe flying
Another good reason to wear a helmet.
Safe flying
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Scotland
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t ait natural and Muffin
His role as check pilot is to check, and also raise standards wherever posible, standards that this poorly regulated side of the industry so desperatly needs.
Tudor, I am surprised at you finding his antics informative,
Ask yourseves this what did you learn in these exercises ?
If the engine had failed when balancing on the post what was the probable outcome ?
I can say that he has not pulled any of these stunts with me, if he did Tudor you might find yourself defending him or me for GBH.
RANT OVER
I hope
This post has been edited to remove personal and offensive comments about someone whose name has already been mentioned, and who is a very well known Examiner and Instructor in the UK.
Criticism of the demonstration described by Muffin and t'aint natural remain as posted.
Heliport
His role as check pilot is to check, and also raise standards wherever posible, standards that this poorly regulated side of the industry so desperatly needs.
Tudor, I am surprised at you finding his antics informative,
Ask yourseves this what did you learn in these exercises ?
If the engine had failed when balancing on the post what was the probable outcome ?
I can say that he has not pulled any of these stunts with me, if he did Tudor you might find yourself defending him or me for GBH.
RANT OVER
I hope
This post has been edited to remove personal and offensive comments about someone whose name has already been mentioned, and who is a very well known Examiner and Instructor in the UK.
Criticism of the demonstration described by Muffin and t'aint natural remain as posted.
Heliport
Last edited by Heliport; 9th May 2002 at 00:31.
Join Date: Jul 2000
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MaxNg
I can only speak as I find.
My experiences of him have not only been enjoyable, but also very rewarding. The 'birds' tip is just one of many.
I know nothing about the fencepost demonstration so won't comment on that.
Tudor Owen
PS
I take the point you make in your 'signature', but surely his 23,000+ hours must help a little!
I can only speak as I find.
My experiences of him have not only been enjoyable, but also very rewarding. The 'birds' tip is just one of many.
I know nothing about the fencepost demonstration so won't comment on that.
Tudor Owen
PS
I take the point you make in your 'signature', but surely his 23,000+ hours must help a little!
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 9th May 2002 at 10:47.
I agree whole-heartedly with the hard-liners that say that helicopters should be flown two the book 100% of the time. In an ideal world this would be the case and this would be adequate for safe operations.
However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!
For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc.
Flying with someone with the supreme level of confidence of Mike Smith and other such characters in the UK and overseas can significantly improve the confidence of low-timers and hence allow them to relax more at the controls and be safer pilots.
Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away.
Considering the unlikeness of an engine failure without warning and then the fact that an engine failure with this pilot won't be as bad as it could be then I feel that the benefits outweigh the dangers.
I believe a different more formal approach is necessary for commercial check-rides, but given the unique nature of helicopter flying in the UK and the PPL students it attracts, I think this is a justified pilot development approach under the circumstances.
CRAN
However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!
For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc.
Flying with someone with the supreme level of confidence of Mike Smith and other such characters in the UK and overseas can significantly improve the confidence of low-timers and hence allow them to relax more at the controls and be safer pilots.
Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away.
Considering the unlikeness of an engine failure without warning and then the fact that an engine failure with this pilot won't be as bad as it could be then I feel that the benefits outweigh the dangers.
I believe a different more formal approach is necessary for commercial check-rides, but given the unique nature of helicopter flying in the UK and the PPL students it attracts, I think this is a justified pilot development approach under the circumstances.
CRAN
Join Date: May 2002
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Something slightly different.
I read somewhere that a guy learnt to fly a heli in the Andes by watching a condor. It taught him where the downdrafts were and how to fly pinnicle approaches. It is actually facinating watching a bird approach a small pond. They appear to fly recces and setup approaches into wind.
I read somewhere that a guy learnt to fly a heli in the Andes by watching a condor. It taught him where the downdrafts were and how to fly pinnicle approaches. It is actually facinating watching a bird approach a small pond. They appear to fly recces and setup approaches into wind.
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Heliport and fellow pruners
I did not bring up this subject, I just responded to the content and if my singleing out of this one person has caused upset to anyone then please accept my apology.
HOWEVER
There are far better ways of instilling confidence in those that need it without the un-necessery risks that these alledged ( Is that the proper caveat Tudor) demonstations expose people to.
Cran you said
"However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!
For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc. "
You mentioned human factor's
When teaching, the relationship between teacher and student is similar to that of the "parent / child relationship" and like any child the challenge is to emulate it's teacher thus seeking approval from them, THERE LIES THE DANGER !!!!!!!!!
How many children have hurt other children whilst emulating there peers
How on god's earth can trying to operate the aircraft in the maner that it is approved for be a contributory factor in a accident.
Confidence is what the instructor pilot should show to the student in every execise that is demonstrated this confidence will allow the student to relax and learn the task at hand in a more efficient and costworthy manner not only in direct cost to the student but an indirect cost to the rest of the industry in low accident rates and insurance claims.
QUOTE
"Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away."
If you think that someone can defy the laws of physics just because they have a loads of hours, then you and them are heading for a wake up call, I just hope that youre right.
If these stories are typical flying club barstool brags, blown all out of proportion in the vein attempt to get to impress a audiance then I guess I have ranted for nothing but I will not apologise for having standards
over
I did not bring up this subject, I just responded to the content and if my singleing out of this one person has caused upset to anyone then please accept my apology.
HOWEVER
There are far better ways of instilling confidence in those that need it without the un-necessery risks that these alledged ( Is that the proper caveat Tudor) demonstations expose people to.
Cran you said
"However, let's consider some human factors and the type of people that Mike Smith will spend most of his time teaching and examining - UK PPL's. These guys typically will not necessarily have any special aptitude for helicopter flight (though of course some will), just the desire to fly or surplus money!
For low time inexperienced pilots I feel that confidence in their ability and the machine will be low (compared to that of more experienced pilots). This in turn can be a major contributing factor in events leading to accidents - 'trying too hard', being tense and uneasy in the air, distracted by trivial details etc, etc. "
You mentioned human factor's
When teaching, the relationship between teacher and student is similar to that of the "parent / child relationship" and like any child the challenge is to emulate it's teacher thus seeking approval from them, THERE LIES THE DANGER !!!!!!!!!
How many children have hurt other children whilst emulating there peers
How on god's earth can trying to operate the aircraft in the maner that it is approved for be a contributory factor in a accident.
Confidence is what the instructor pilot should show to the student in every execise that is demonstrated this confidence will allow the student to relax and learn the task at hand in a more efficient and costworthy manner not only in direct cost to the student but an indirect cost to the rest of the industry in low accident rates and insurance claims.
QUOTE
"Okay - so what happens if the engine did fail? Well it wouldn't surprise me that with MS at the controls if he were to put it on the deck without a scratch but if the worst comes to the worst from 4ft with zero ground speed you going to have a controlled crash and walk away."
If you think that someone can defy the laws of physics just because they have a loads of hours, then you and them are heading for a wake up call, I just hope that youre right.
If these stories are typical flying club barstool brags, blown all out of proportion in the vein attempt to get to impress a audiance then I guess I have ranted for nothing but I will not apologise for having standards
over
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In my limited experience the helicopter world is very small and has a disporportionate number of strong-minded, well known individuals.
People form opinions on these 'celebs' often based on third-hand stories rather than personal expriences. As such, I think that any criticism of these celebs should remain what it is, bar-room talk between individuals rather than on a public forum.
Yes, let's talk about the limts of what is demonstrated or taught to students and low-time PPLs, but avoid the personality issue.
So to go back to the subject;
In my PPL GFT I gently took the helicopter into a vortex ring and recovered quickly. The examiner (nameless, but very well known) said "that's not a real VR", climbed back up again and took it into a really fully developed VR. Wild
Taught me a good lesson to keep clear VRs, but I did wonder whether it put massive strain on the machine. any thoughts?
People form opinions on these 'celebs' often based on third-hand stories rather than personal expriences. As such, I think that any criticism of these celebs should remain what it is, bar-room talk between individuals rather than on a public forum.
Yes, let's talk about the limts of what is demonstrated or taught to students and low-time PPLs, but avoid the personality issue.
So to go back to the subject;
In my PPL GFT I gently took the helicopter into a vortex ring and recovered quickly. The examiner (nameless, but very well known) said "that's not a real VR", climbed back up again and took it into a really fully developed VR. Wild
Taught me a good lesson to keep clear VRs, but I did wonder whether it put massive strain on the machine. any thoughts?
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Draco
There is nothing wrong in what your instructor demonstrated to you, and the extra demo was well worth it to you and everyone else.
As for any maintainance implications from such a demo as long as Rrpm is maintained there should not be any undo stress to effect, and as there are no post flight maintanance requirements after such a incursion then rest easy with a well learnt lesson.
The main point of my rant was lost on you and that is, any demonstration should idealy be briefed and discussed in the classroom before hand, and then flown with a suitable margin of safety.
there are quite a few "Traps" that a experianced instructor can set that will bring home to the student the ease at which you can get into trouble in a helicopter whilst maintaining a margin of safety.
here's one such trap that catches quite a few
When the student is convinced that they fully understand the causes and recovery from VR (settling with power) and have covered to satisfaction exercise 15. Then on your next flight (cloud base permitting) take a camera with you and on your way back to base from the new exercise choose somthing to photograph, get them to orbit several times and pressure them to tighten the orbit and slow down so you can get you're shot ( they will very quickly get involved with what you are trying to achieve ) when you next come into the downwind position tell them stop here!!! thats my shot, and then watch what happens next.
Who whould have thought it !!!!!!!!!!!
There is nothing wrong in what your instructor demonstrated to you, and the extra demo was well worth it to you and everyone else.
As for any maintainance implications from such a demo as long as Rrpm is maintained there should not be any undo stress to effect, and as there are no post flight maintanance requirements after such a incursion then rest easy with a well learnt lesson.
The main point of my rant was lost on you and that is, any demonstration should idealy be briefed and discussed in the classroom before hand, and then flown with a suitable margin of safety.
there are quite a few "Traps" that a experianced instructor can set that will bring home to the student the ease at which you can get into trouble in a helicopter whilst maintaining a margin of safety.
here's one such trap that catches quite a few
When the student is convinced that they fully understand the causes and recovery from VR (settling with power) and have covered to satisfaction exercise 15. Then on your next flight (cloud base permitting) take a camera with you and on your way back to base from the new exercise choose somthing to photograph, get them to orbit several times and pressure them to tighten the orbit and slow down so you can get you're shot ( they will very quickly get involved with what you are trying to achieve ) when you next come into the downwind position tell them stop here!!! thats my shot, and then watch what happens next.
Who whould have thought it !!!!!!!!!!!
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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MaxNg,
A very good point about distraction and vortex ring. It nearly happened to me as a newish PPL - flying into a Rally with a friend, she's taking photos, people on the ground waving and cheering, me wondering desperately where to land away from kids and dogs, and I nearly came to a hover at 500 ft without realising it. Taught me just how easy it is, when there's a lot going on.
This thing about under-confident PPLs...When I started learning to fly helicopters I had a f/w licence, like quite a lot of us. And like quite a lot of us I felt comfortable in the air, far too comfortable for my ability in helicopters. I was at a school where confidence seemed to be especially emphasised and even praised (or maybe it was just with me, because we all know women have no confidence now don't we?). Anyway, it took a potentially disastrous and rather expensive incident (I'll tell you all about it some day, but not yet) for me to realise just how little I really knew about helicopters. The point I'm making is that people who fly helicopters are individuals, and all different, and should be treated as such. And over-confidence is probably far more dangerous than under-confidence, or so I would have thought.
A very good point about distraction and vortex ring. It nearly happened to me as a newish PPL - flying into a Rally with a friend, she's taking photos, people on the ground waving and cheering, me wondering desperately where to land away from kids and dogs, and I nearly came to a hover at 500 ft without realising it.
Taught me just how easy it is, when there's a lot going on.This thing about under-confident PPLs...When I started learning to fly helicopters I had a f/w licence, like quite a lot of us. And like quite a lot of us I felt comfortable in the air, far too comfortable for my ability in helicopters. I was at a school where confidence seemed to be especially emphasised and even praised (or maybe it was just with me, because we all know women have no confidence now don't we?). Anyway, it took a potentially disastrous and rather expensive incident (I'll tell you all about it some day, but not yet) for me to realise just how little I really knew about helicopters. The point I'm making is that people who fly helicopters are individuals, and all different, and should be treated as such. And over-confidence is probably far more dangerous than under-confidence, or so I would have thought.
