Why would anyone want the UN to investigate a helicopter crash?
Thread Starter
Why would anyone want the UN to investigate a helicopter crash?
Strange people to ask to assisit in an accident investigation. The UN keeps the accident investigations into the myriad accidents they have with dodgy helicopters and crews, a secret.
Strange that anyone else looking for an open and impartial investigation should look to that organization. Even more embarrasing that ICAO is a branch of that same organization.
Sudan Asks U.N. to Probe Garang Death
Monday August 22, 2005 11:31 PM
AP Photo KHT101
UNITED NATIONS (AP) - Sudan has asked the United Nations to help the investigation into the July 30 helicopter crash that killed a rebel leader who had just become the country's first vice president, a U.N. spokesman said Monday.
The United Nations has agreed to provide transportation and logistics and may help examine evidence from the scene of the crash, spokesman Farhan Haq said.
Southern rebel leader John Garang died in the crash of a helicopter owned by Uganda's president, Yoweri Museveni, just weeks after taking office as first vice president.
Haq said Sudan delivered the request on Thursday. He said it was possible that the International Civil Aviation Organization could become involved as well. The U.N.-affiliated agency, headquartered in Montreal, sets aviation safety standards.
Sudan's government and Garang's Sudan People's Liberation Movement already set up a team to investigate the crash and asked several countries to help. On Friday, investigators said the probe would take about six months.
Strange that anyone else looking for an open and impartial investigation should look to that organization. Even more embarrasing that ICAO is a branch of that same organization.
Sudan Asks U.N. to Probe Garang Death
Monday August 22, 2005 11:31 PM
AP Photo KHT101
UNITED NATIONS (AP) - Sudan has asked the United Nations to help the investigation into the July 30 helicopter crash that killed a rebel leader who had just become the country's first vice president, a U.N. spokesman said Monday.
The United Nations has agreed to provide transportation and logistics and may help examine evidence from the scene of the crash, spokesman Farhan Haq said.
Southern rebel leader John Garang died in the crash of a helicopter owned by Uganda's president, Yoweri Museveni, just weeks after taking office as first vice president.
Haq said Sudan delivered the request on Thursday. He said it was possible that the International Civil Aviation Organization could become involved as well. The U.N.-affiliated agency, headquartered in Montreal, sets aviation safety standards.
Sudan's government and Garang's Sudan People's Liberation Movement already set up a team to investigate the crash and asked several countries to help. On Friday, investigators said the probe would take about six months.
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Hello Cyclic Hotline!
The reason is very simple. The UN has no investigative expertise therfore the cause will never be found and are likely to blame it on Pilot Error as every good African Government wants! Ergo, NO RESPONSIBILITY!
OffshoeIgor
The reason is very simple. The UN has no investigative expertise therfore the cause will never be found and are likely to blame it on Pilot Error as every good African Government wants! Ergo, NO RESPONSIBILITY!
OffshoeIgor
Thread Starter
Hi westym.
I would suggest that you look into the history of contracted UN operations. Maybe you are new to this field? I assure you there are many veterans of the various UN campaigns on this site. There are many safe, reputable, operators and operations conducted under the authority of the UN. There have also been a large number that do not fall into that category.
The UN does not publish ANY of its accident reports as it is not in the public interest. I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that before you hired on. You can operate under any regulatory body you so desire - but if you have the misfortune to be involved in an accident - you will be cast under the UN shroud of secrecy!
Check it out. It's a fact.
I would suggest that you look into the history of contracted UN operations. Maybe you are new to this field? I assure you there are many veterans of the various UN campaigns on this site. There are many safe, reputable, operators and operations conducted under the authority of the UN. There have also been a large number that do not fall into that category.
The UN does not publish ANY of its accident reports as it is not in the public interest. I'm surprised that they didn't tell you that before you hired on. You can operate under any regulatory body you so desire - but if you have the misfortune to be involved in an accident - you will be cast under the UN shroud of secrecy!
Check it out. It's a fact.
That is not exactly true Cyclic Hotline. According to ICAO rules, the State of Occurrence is responsible for the investigation of the accident, if they are not capable (to small, no resources etc) then the State of Registration, and/or the State of Manufacture can lead the investigation. In this instance, Sudan have asked the UN for help, of which, ICAO is part. As for all UN aircraft accident reports being kept secret, well, that is not an entirely accurate statement either. I happen to know a gentleman who investigated two UN C-130's shot down in Angola. At that point in time he ws working for a Civil Aviation Authority of a country that was considered neutral by the 2 warring factions in Angola. He was then attached to the UN through ICAO to participate in the investigation.
After a quick, and by no means comprehensive, search through the net, I found reports for the following accidents:
date type reg operator loc
19-MAR-2000 Antonov 26 UR-26586 UN D.R. Congo
12-NOV-1999 ATR-42 F-OHFV UN Yugoslavia
02-JAN-1999 Lockheed L-100 D2-EHD UN Angola
26-DEC-1998 Lockheed L-100 S9-CAO UN Angola
22-NOV-1995 Antonov 12 RA-11008 UN Angola
31-JUL-1994 Antonov 26 UR-26207 UN Croatia
09-FEB-1993 Antonov 32 ? UN Kenya
09-AUG-1974 DHC-5 Buffalo 115461 UN Syria
06-MAR-1966 Curtiss C-46 SE-CFG UN D.R. Congo
20-SEP-1962 Douglas DC-3 UN-202 UN D.R. Congo
I'm confident a more thorough search would bring up more results. The problem with finidng UN accidents can sometimes be that the aircraft are contracted through a third party, and those details are the ones on the accident report.
I hope this clears up some confusion that seems to be surrounding this topic.
noooby
After a quick, and by no means comprehensive, search through the net, I found reports for the following accidents:
date type reg operator loc
19-MAR-2000 Antonov 26 UR-26586 UN D.R. Congo
12-NOV-1999 ATR-42 F-OHFV UN Yugoslavia
02-JAN-1999 Lockheed L-100 D2-EHD UN Angola
26-DEC-1998 Lockheed L-100 S9-CAO UN Angola
22-NOV-1995 Antonov 12 RA-11008 UN Angola
31-JUL-1994 Antonov 26 UR-26207 UN Croatia
09-FEB-1993 Antonov 32 ? UN Kenya
09-AUG-1974 DHC-5 Buffalo 115461 UN Syria
06-MAR-1966 Curtiss C-46 SE-CFG UN D.R. Congo
20-SEP-1962 Douglas DC-3 UN-202 UN D.R. Congo
I'm confident a more thorough search would bring up more results. The problem with finidng UN accidents can sometimes be that the aircraft are contracted through a third party, and those details are the ones on the accident report.
I hope this clears up some confusion that seems to be surrounding this topic.
noooby
Lets get real here:
1. If a helo crashes in the Sudan carrying a political leader - it's got to be dodgy.
2. If anyone flies helos in the sudan - he's got to be dodgy.
3. Does anything happen in the Sudan?
4. Where's the Sudan?
1. If a helo crashes in the Sudan carrying a political leader - it's got to be dodgy.
2. If anyone flies helos in the sudan - he's got to be dodgy.
3. Does anything happen in the Sudan?
4. Where's the Sudan?
Thread Starter
Thanks for the response noooby.
It is indeed interesting to read these reports of chartered flights, but see if you can use your investigative talents to turn up a single accident report from a contracted helicopter accident.
That is the topic at hand here. Helicopters on contract to the UN and secret accident reports.
It is indeed interesting to read these reports of chartered flights, but see if you can use your investigative talents to turn up a single accident report from a contracted helicopter accident.
That is the topic at hand here. Helicopters on contract to the UN and secret accident reports.
Thread Starter
Westym, you dertainly derive some strange interpretations of the statements that are made here. Most of the items you dispute are your own interpretation of what is written, not what the words actually say.
There is no list that goes on and on.
The accident reports into UN contracted helicopter accidents are kept secret - fact. Unless you know otherwise, and can produce some of these reports to disprove this.
The UN contracts some dodgy helicopters and crews - they are the ones that keep having the accidents - fact.
I have already pointed out to you, that there are any number of legitimate operators that have provided safe and properly managed operations to the UN. Included in that list would be any number of commercial operators, and military organisations. This discussion is about the dodgy ones and the accidents they have.
At NO time, have I (or anyone else on this thread) ever stated that ALL the crews are dodgy - only you have made that observation or reached that conclusion. Although you seem to focus on the RAF and USAF operations, I can assure you that there are many other branches of the military that have provide long and valuable service in support of UN operations. I have no idea what a UK PAOM is?
If you believe that a UN SOP exists, or that many of the member States of the UN have regulations that go beyond a vague recognition of aviation safety, then welcome to the world of commercial aviation. You might want to discuss this with someone who has performed on a variety of UN operations. Better still, you might provide a copy of the UN SOP's, as I assume you must be operating to them?
And finally, regarding the jurisdiction of the investigation of accidents - well, just try and find an accident report and you will find out just who is investigating them, and where the reports go!
You have entered the twilight zone that is UN authority and regulation!
There is no list that goes on and on.
The accident reports into UN contracted helicopter accidents are kept secret - fact. Unless you know otherwise, and can produce some of these reports to disprove this.
The UN contracts some dodgy helicopters and crews - they are the ones that keep having the accidents - fact.
I have already pointed out to you, that there are any number of legitimate operators that have provided safe and properly managed operations to the UN. Included in that list would be any number of commercial operators, and military organisations. This discussion is about the dodgy ones and the accidents they have.
At NO time, have I (or anyone else on this thread) ever stated that ALL the crews are dodgy - only you have made that observation or reached that conclusion. Although you seem to focus on the RAF and USAF operations, I can assure you that there are many other branches of the military that have provide long and valuable service in support of UN operations. I have no idea what a UK PAOM is?
If you believe that a UN SOP exists, or that many of the member States of the UN have regulations that go beyond a vague recognition of aviation safety, then welcome to the world of commercial aviation. You might want to discuss this with someone who has performed on a variety of UN operations. Better still, you might provide a copy of the UN SOP's, as I assume you must be operating to them?
And finally, regarding the jurisdiction of the investigation of accidents - well, just try and find an accident report and you will find out just who is investigating them, and where the reports go!
You have entered the twilight zone that is UN authority and regulation!
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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Hi All,
I've done 3 UN missions and I have never seen a final report on any accident. I've heard someone mention how great the Russian Pilots are, my only comment would be that they get the job done. I don't necessarily see how that makes them good or better pilots.
The only person on this thread I've seen use of the term "Crap UN Pilot's" was the gent who took offense to the term in the first place.
As for UN Pilots being exclusively "contracted", this is also incorrect. On many missions, including all 3 I've been on, there has been a dedicated Military contingent from the member states directly in the employ of the UN.
TC how's it going? Cyclic, keep up the great posts.
I hope this helps to clear things up.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
I've done 3 UN missions and I have never seen a final report on any accident. I've heard someone mention how great the Russian Pilots are, my only comment would be that they get the job done. I don't necessarily see how that makes them good or better pilots.
The only person on this thread I've seen use of the term "Crap UN Pilot's" was the gent who took offense to the term in the first place.
As for UN Pilots being exclusively "contracted", this is also incorrect. On many missions, including all 3 I've been on, there has been a dedicated Military contingent from the member states directly in the employ of the UN.
TC how's it going? Cyclic, keep up the great posts.
I hope this helps to clear things up.
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
Thread Starter
This topic went a little off track, and it was neither meant to impugn the operators and crews contracted to the UN, nor in any way devalue the crews currently working for the UN. These are stressful and demanding jobs, in some of the most challenging locations and circumstances in the world, at any given time.
But back to the point of my original post.
The UN, the parent organisation of ICAO, runs a highly unregulated aviation contracting operation, which is dependent upon the Operators themselves to maintain the safety of the programme.
Get good operators - no problem.
Get poor operators - helicopters crash and people die.
That this organization can shamelessly hide the "facts" of the accidents that occur on their watch, is probably not too great a surprise for anyone who has seen the UN in action. I would point out that the majority of these accidents are not through "enemy" action, or such, but more poorly equipped aircraft operating outside the normal weather and operational limitations for any given location.
That the worldwide aviation regulators who are members of ICAO, allow this to occur is nothing short of complicitness in these operations, these accidents and the lives that are lost.
Where are the politicians that protect the interests of their electorate? Where are the National aviation regulatory bodies and responsible parties when there is a real issue that they can address and remedy? Where is ICAO?
I really wish that somone would prove me to be wrong, as I would be more than happy to never have to broach this subject matter again.
Anyone out there have any more insight or information?
But back to the point of my original post.
The UN, the parent organisation of ICAO, runs a highly unregulated aviation contracting operation, which is dependent upon the Operators themselves to maintain the safety of the programme.
Get good operators - no problem.
Get poor operators - helicopters crash and people die.
That this organization can shamelessly hide the "facts" of the accidents that occur on their watch, is probably not too great a surprise for anyone who has seen the UN in action. I would point out that the majority of these accidents are not through "enemy" action, or such, but more poorly equipped aircraft operating outside the normal weather and operational limitations for any given location.
That the worldwide aviation regulators who are members of ICAO, allow this to occur is nothing short of complicitness in these operations, these accidents and the lives that are lost.
Where are the politicians that protect the interests of their electorate? Where are the National aviation regulatory bodies and responsible parties when there is a real issue that they can address and remedy? Where is ICAO?
I really wish that somone would prove me to be wrong, as I would be more than happy to never have to broach this subject matter again.
Anyone out there have any more insight or information?
