ATPL/CPL Training: Ground School topics
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Hi Martin
This is pasted direct from the email sent to me by the CAA, For ATPL(H) you need ATPL theory;
if you wish to endorse an IR(H) on to your JAR-FCL or UK CAA
CPL(H), you are required to;
(1) attend a JAR-FCL Approved Theoretical Ground Examination training
organisation and complete the JAR-FCL IR(H) theory course.
(2) Sit and pass all of the JAR-FCL IR(H) professional flight crew
examinations.
(3) Complete a JAR-FCL approved IR(H) Modular Course.
(4) Pass a JAR-FCL IR(H) Skill Test with a CAA Staff Examiner.
If you wish to have issue of a JAR-FCL ATPL(H), you would be required to
pass all the of the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) professional flight crew examinations
and meet the additional requirements as per JAR-FCL 2.280.
This is pasted direct from the email sent to me by the CAA, For ATPL(H) you need ATPL theory;
if you wish to endorse an IR(H) on to your JAR-FCL or UK CAA
CPL(H), you are required to;
(1) attend a JAR-FCL Approved Theoretical Ground Examination training
organisation and complete the JAR-FCL IR(H) theory course.
(2) Sit and pass all of the JAR-FCL IR(H) professional flight crew
examinations.
(3) Complete a JAR-FCL approved IR(H) Modular Course.
(4) Pass a JAR-FCL IR(H) Skill Test with a CAA Staff Examiner.
If you wish to have issue of a JAR-FCL ATPL(H), you would be required to
pass all the of the JAR-FCL ATPL (H) professional flight crew examinations
and meet the additional requirements as per JAR-FCL 2.280.
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Very odd. I just had a look at the Amendment 3 (newest version available on JAA.nl) and under JAR-FCL 2.285(a) it says;
"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H)."
Maybe the CAA were thinking of the fixed-wing requirements when they wrote to you?
"The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of an ATPL(H)."
Maybe the CAA were thinking of the fixed-wing requirements when they wrote to you?
Better red than ...
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If you have completed the exams for CPL(H) and the exams for IR(H) then it is the same exams as ATPL(H).
The difference is the first batch are done in two bits and the second in one.
The rest of the ATPL(H) is based on hours of a certain type (night/ multi pilot/ etc).
Therefore if you have a CPL(H) and more than 3 years from the completion of the ATPL(H) exams the next step is to do the IR exams again (like KMS is doing).
This will give the theory credits for IR and ATPL subject to completion of the flying part.
(in a nutshell)
h-r
The difference is the first batch are done in two bits and the second in one.
The rest of the ATPL(H) is based on hours of a certain type (night/ multi pilot/ etc).
Therefore if you have a CPL(H) and more than 3 years from the completion of the ATPL(H) exams the next step is to do the IR exams again (like KMS is doing).
This will give the theory credits for IR and ATPL subject to completion of the flying part.
(in a nutshell)
h-r
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I'm probably miles off the mark here, but if you know your not going to get your IR within 3 years of completing your ATPL exams, why not just do the CPL exams and licence, and then do the IR exams when the time is right?
Again, I have very little knowledge of the JAA system, but would be interesting if this is an option.
Many thanks
LB
Again, I have very little knowledge of the JAA system, but would be interesting if this is an option.
Many thanks
LB
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It certainly is an option and the option I have taken!
Sitting here studying Met as I type -oh no, I'm not studying, I'm typing! Never mind!
Cheers
Whirls
Sitting here studying Met as I type -oh no, I'm not studying, I'm typing! Never mind!
Cheers
Whirls
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Whirls,
Where are you doing your CPL(H) course? I don't mean where I mean who with?
I am thinking of London Metropolitan University modular course but not sure if they do only CPL.
If I can get away with just the CPL(H) exams for the time being and do the IR later then that is the kiddie for me.
H.
Where are you doing your CPL(H) course? I don't mean where I mean who with?
I am thinking of London Metropolitan University modular course but not sure if they do only CPL.
If I can get away with just the CPL(H) exams for the time being and do the IR later then that is the kiddie for me.
H.
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I am doing my CPL here in Sheringham and there's nobody else in the room with me!
There are only two places that do CPL(H) being Dragon Helicopters in Sheffield and Atlantic Flight Traning in Coventry. I am doing it through AFT.
Cheers
Whirls
There are only two places that do CPL(H) being Dragon Helicopters in Sheffield and Atlantic Flight Traning in Coventry. I am doing it through AFT.
Cheers
Whirls
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Doing the CPL-only route is an option, although the support/feedback you get from Bristol gs seems to be top notch, they have been doing it a long time.
hardly anyone has a bad word to say about bristol, then again.....does this sound familiar LB???
hardly anyone has a bad word to say about bristol, then again.....does this sound familiar LB???
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Hi Martin & Heli Redeye
I really hope your both right, It will save me lot of hassle excuse me for being a bit sceptical though (No offence intended)
I read what it says in FCL 2.285 but take a look at JAR FCL 2.295 b also see LASORS J1.7 according to this if you resit and only do the IR theory as far as I can see it only credits you for IR it doesnt mention the ATPL credit. Thanks.
I really hope your both right, It will save me lot of hassle excuse me for being a bit sceptical though (No offence intended)
I read what it says in FCL 2.285 but take a look at JAR FCL 2.295 b also see LASORS J1.7 according to this if you resit and only do the IR theory as far as I can see it only credits you for IR it doesnt mention the ATPL credit. Thanks.
Last edited by ThomasTheTankEngine; 1st Aug 2005 at 01:49.
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And when you stop sitting in a classroom for 500 to 600 hours you may actually go flying at some stage.
The CAA requirements leave me absolutely dumbfounded.
The CAA requirements leave me absolutely dumbfounded.
Better red than ...
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Another of those CAA ambiguities ....
Best ring Roger H at GTS and ask him or Dave Webb to explain (www.gtserv.co.uk) or indeed ring the Dragons at EGSY as they have built the CPL course on the basis of a first step along this path.
As far as I know (algebraically) in JAA land, CPL(H) + IR(H) + {logged hours within certain categories and of correct values} = ATPL(H)
Best ring Roger H at GTS and ask him or Dave Webb to explain (www.gtserv.co.uk) or indeed ring the Dragons at EGSY as they have built the CPL course on the basis of a first step along this path.
As far as I know (algebraically) in JAA land, CPL(H) + IR(H) + {logged hours within certain categories and of correct values} = ATPL(H)
Don't forget MPH type rating with associated MCC course.
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I spoke to metropolitan University today and they seemed quite adamant that a CPL(H) plus IR is not the same as an ATPL(H).
They also said that the curriculum for helicopters is not as well thought out as it is for planks and it is being re-written as we speak, so strike now while the iron is hot.
It seems there is confusion over the issue at the highest level.
H.
They also said that the curriculum for helicopters is not as well thought out as it is for planks and it is being re-written as we speak, so strike now while the iron is hot.
It seems there is confusion over the issue at the highest level.
H.
"I spoke to metropolitan University today and they seemed quite adamant that a CPL(H) plus IR is not the same as an ATPL(H)".
They're right, who said it was?
They're right, who said it was?
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I originally completed and passed the UK national CPL theory which is equivalent to the JAA ATPL theory I hold both a UK CPL(H) and a JAA CPL(H) issued from the UK because I never gained the IR within 36 months after the theory pass the CAA are saying
For the IR I need to do the following
(1) Attend a JAR-FCL Approved Theoretical Ground Examination training organisation and complete the JAR-FCL IR(H) theory course.
(2)Sit and pass all of the JAR-FCL IR(H) professional flight crew examinations.
(3)Complete a JAR-FCL approved IR(H) Modular Course.
(4)Pass a JAR-FCL IR(H) Skill Test with a CAA Staff Examiner.
This I agree with and confirmed it with JAR FCL 2 and LASORS.
I was also told that I need to re-pass the ATPL theory for issue of the ATPL(H) however this seams to contradict JAR FCL 2.285 with reference to my JAA CPL and LASORS A10.2 paragraph 3(b) on page 16 with reference to my national CPL.
J1.7 states “Candidates would have to re-pass the ATPL(H) or IR(H) theory knowledge examinations before an IR could be granted”
It states nothing about having to re-pass theory for the grant of the ATPL nor could I find this anywhere else in LASORS or JAR FCL 2.
JAR FCL 2.285(a) states “The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of the ATPL(H)”
In regard to a UK national CPL(H) see LASORS A10.2 Page 16 Paragraph 3(b)
If a holder holder of a UK CPL(H) & IR(H) has less than 500 hours flying experience on multi-pilot helicopters but meets the experience requirements for a UK ATPL(H) He would meet the JAA ATPL theory requirements.
It mentions nothing about obtaining the IR within 36 months after gaining a pass in the UK CPL exams, it does not state you can not complete ATPL theory and after the 36 months complete the IR theory, Gain an IR and then the ATPL this way. I can not find where it says you have to re-sit the ATPL theory however this is what the CAA have told me.
It does not state that I can not now pass the IR theory exams and then gain my IR and become eligible for the ATPL(H) theory credit in the 2 ways mentioned above.
I am waiting on some advice but then I plan on replying to the CAA, If they are correct and I need to repeat the ATPL theory then so be it but I want to know where it's written.
For the IR I need to do the following
(1) Attend a JAR-FCL Approved Theoretical Ground Examination training organisation and complete the JAR-FCL IR(H) theory course.
(2)Sit and pass all of the JAR-FCL IR(H) professional flight crew examinations.
(3)Complete a JAR-FCL approved IR(H) Modular Course.
(4)Pass a JAR-FCL IR(H) Skill Test with a CAA Staff Examiner.
This I agree with and confirmed it with JAR FCL 2 and LASORS.
I was also told that I need to re-pass the ATPL theory for issue of the ATPL(H) however this seams to contradict JAR FCL 2.285 with reference to my JAA CPL and LASORS A10.2 paragraph 3(b) on page 16 with reference to my national CPL.
J1.7 states “Candidates would have to re-pass the ATPL(H) or IR(H) theory knowledge examinations before an IR could be granted”
It states nothing about having to re-pass theory for the grant of the ATPL nor could I find this anywhere else in LASORS or JAR FCL 2.
JAR FCL 2.285(a) states “The holder of a CPL(H) and IR(H) satisfies the knowledge requirements for the issue of the ATPL(H)”
In regard to a UK national CPL(H) see LASORS A10.2 Page 16 Paragraph 3(b)
If a holder holder of a UK CPL(H) & IR(H) has less than 500 hours flying experience on multi-pilot helicopters but meets the experience requirements for a UK ATPL(H) He would meet the JAA ATPL theory requirements.
It mentions nothing about obtaining the IR within 36 months after gaining a pass in the UK CPL exams, it does not state you can not complete ATPL theory and after the 36 months complete the IR theory, Gain an IR and then the ATPL this way. I can not find where it says you have to re-sit the ATPL theory however this is what the CAA have told me.
It does not state that I can not now pass the IR theory exams and then gain my IR and become eligible for the ATPL(H) theory credit in the 2 ways mentioned above.
I am waiting on some advice but then I plan on replying to the CAA, If they are correct and I need to repeat the ATPL theory then so be it but I want to know where it's written.
Better red than ...
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I think TTTE has summed up the situation.
"Re-passing" in THIS CASE may be associated with having taken the old syllabus rather than the JAR Interim H (or the 'new' JAR sylabus whenever somebody finishes it ...)
However the Interim H is based on the old national sylabus plus some (well, quite a few actually) JAR A papers.
So how different is the content? Perhaps there will be a conversion course to cover areas not addressed in the nationals for CPL(H) - oneday
If, having taken a CPL(H), and then an IR(H), and having accumulated night, multi pilot, etc hours to ATPL(H) standard, a UK based pilot was then refused a ATPL(H) there may well be 'hell to pay' because most people go that way because of the time and cost issues.
Especially as "grandfather rights" leave people today with a ATPL(H) designation which is essentially a CPL(H) but from pre JAR .....
Hardly a level playing field by any stretch of the immagination.
Discriminatory? Perhaps
"Re-passing" in THIS CASE may be associated with having taken the old syllabus rather than the JAR Interim H (or the 'new' JAR sylabus whenever somebody finishes it ...)
However the Interim H is based on the old national sylabus plus some (well, quite a few actually) JAR A papers.
So how different is the content? Perhaps there will be a conversion course to cover areas not addressed in the nationals for CPL(H) - oneday
If, having taken a CPL(H), and then an IR(H), and having accumulated night, multi pilot, etc hours to ATPL(H) standard, a UK based pilot was then refused a ATPL(H) there may well be 'hell to pay' because most people go that way because of the time and cost issues.
Especially as "grandfather rights" leave people today with a ATPL(H) designation which is essentially a CPL(H) but from pre JAR .....
Hardly a level playing field by any stretch of the immagination.
Discriminatory? Perhaps
Hemac,
it is not correct to say "UK CAA CPL theory exams are the same as JAA ATPL", therefore one would expect to have to do all the ATPL theory exams.
An ATPL must include an MPH type.
To obtain an MPH type you must complete an MCC course (separate or integrated.)
To gain exemption from the MCC course you must have 500+ hours in an SPH but operated in a two crew environment (effectively only the 365, S-76 or B212 and with BHL or Scotia.
So I would argue that a CPL + IR + hours does not equal an ATPL.
it is not correct to say "UK CAA CPL theory exams are the same as JAA ATPL", therefore one would expect to have to do all the ATPL theory exams.
An ATPL must include an MPH type.
To obtain an MPH type you must complete an MCC course (separate or integrated.)
To gain exemption from the MCC course you must have 500+ hours in an SPH but operated in a two crew environment (effectively only the 365, S-76 or B212 and with BHL or Scotia.
So I would argue that a CPL + IR + hours does not equal an ATPL.