Something mysterious in Snowdonia
Oogle,
Don't worry about it being a mil-bashing jaunt - pretty well all the posters who've come back at Crab are ex-mil themselves (I survived 28 years working for Aunt Betty). Like Speechless Two we've made the transition with differing levels of success (and pain) into the Dark Side, aka civilian aviation. It's a process which the unwilling or unwary can find quite shocking.
Crab,
- without pretending to speak for Speechless Two (there must be some quip about getting 4 presses of the PTT here somewhere), consider the case where some numpty ex-mil bloke decides that the police task he's on is going to be done HIS way, not the way the bobbies require (and pay for). CRM breakdown = FS hazard. Just one possible example from my chosen ex-mil flying "career".
As for mandating radio for all aviators, its a sound opinion and you're fully entitled to it. You've got reasons for it which you've explained. My opinion is different - I think there's room for non-radio ops and my experience is that they can be safe to the tolerances required by most standards-monitoring organisations. As with the discussion over on the Speed Camera thread - if people think legislation is wrong then get it changed, but meanwhile live with it and make it work.
Don't worry about it being a mil-bashing jaunt - pretty well all the posters who've come back at Crab are ex-mil themselves (I survived 28 years working for Aunt Betty). Like Speechless Two we've made the transition with differing levels of success (and pain) into the Dark Side, aka civilian aviation. It's a process which the unwilling or unwary can find quite shocking.
Crab,
I would like to know how the ex-mil guys attitude compromised flight safety
As for mandating radio for all aviators, its a sound opinion and you're fully entitled to it. You've got reasons for it which you've explained. My opinion is different - I think there's room for non-radio ops and my experience is that they can be safe to the tolerances required by most standards-monitoring organisations. As with the discussion over on the Speed Camera thread - if people think legislation is wrong then get it changed, but meanwhile live with it and make it work.
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
crab,
As VHF was the main frequency band used, I used to fly around with my UHF box set at TR+G, much to the surprise of most when they kept hearing 'Securite' and the like. But thanks for the sermon anyway.
In Snowdonia, perhaps a passing a/c will more than likely monitor Valley. Don't Ops Normal calls apply any more?
In my experience, I think you'll be surprised if even passing mil traffic will have 121.5 dialled up let alone turned up! However times change!
How does that work? When you leave, your company can put its hand into the military budget?
SS
As VHF was the main frequency band used, I used to fly around with my UHF box set at TR+G, much to the surprise of most when they kept hearing 'Securite' and the like. But thanks for the sermon anyway.
In Snowdonia, perhaps a passing a/c will more than likely monitor Valley. Don't Ops Normal calls apply any more?
In my experience, I think you'll be surprised if even passing mil traffic will have 121.5 dialled up let alone turned up! However times change!
Witness Bertie Thrusters tale - but then he is ex-mil and not driven totally by money considerations.
SS
I think back to some of the flying I have done in somewhat remote places...Alaska, Somalia, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Mali, Burkina Faso, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iran, and Canada spring to mind....even in Washington and Oregon....radio flight following was not possible due to the terrain, nature of the task, and sheer distance from anyone that had a radio.
Somehow...we managed to survive despite not having radio services. We flew in some awfully inhospitable terrain in places....and over some very hostile folks in others. Talking to others around you...knowing someone will hear you if you holler for help is a comfort. But...it is only a convenience not a necessity.
On the one job in Africa.....after we cleared Bobo-Diolasso airspace we took off the headset and put on ear muffs....that was on Monday morning.....we did not need the headset again until late Friday afternoon or Saturday morning when we returned to Bobo. If you went down.....it would be a very long wait for help. The customer knew where your night stops were....thus you would only be out at most two days before someone missed you worst case.
In Somalia....the US Army always flew in pairs no matter where they went....we flew the 212 single pilot....without a second aircraft all over the country without any flight following beyond getting an arrival message sent back to your point of departure (if possible). It worked.
The Dark side can be a challenge sometimes....but that is why they paid the big bucks right?
Somehow...we managed to survive despite not having radio services. We flew in some awfully inhospitable terrain in places....and over some very hostile folks in others. Talking to others around you...knowing someone will hear you if you holler for help is a comfort. But...it is only a convenience not a necessity.
On the one job in Africa.....after we cleared Bobo-Diolasso airspace we took off the headset and put on ear muffs....that was on Monday morning.....we did not need the headset again until late Friday afternoon or Saturday morning when we returned to Bobo. If you went down.....it would be a very long wait for help. The customer knew where your night stops were....thus you would only be out at most two days before someone missed you worst case.
In Somalia....the US Army always flew in pairs no matter where they went....we flew the 212 single pilot....without a second aircraft all over the country without any flight following beyond getting an arrival message sent back to your point of departure (if possible). It worked.
The Dark side can be a challenge sometimes....but that is why they paid the big bucks right?
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The only reason I listen out on 121.5 is to hear any EPIRB activations.
Isn't this the first thing you would reach for if you were forced down? That is unless it hasn't gone off already.
Voice will obviously be masked by the terrain but at least an EPIRB is going spaceward towards the satellite.
Isn't this the first thing you would reach for if you were forced down? That is unless it hasn't gone off already.
Voice will obviously be masked by the terrain but at least an EPIRB is going spaceward towards the satellite.
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I never thought the day would come when I came to the defence of a Crab on PPrune. Having worked with the guy (he will not thank me for this!) I can assure you he is a highly professional operator and that his standpoint is to simply improve safety.
However, unlike him, I transitioned to commercial aviation and just like speechless2 says, had to adjust quickly to the different style of operating. Civil Operators are not usually blessed with an open chequebook and the inclusion of another radio that is not necessary would be cost prohibitive.
So Crab, I think you will have to accept the realities of life here.
Good luck and safe surfing!
Gunz.
However, unlike him, I transitioned to commercial aviation and just like speechless2 says, had to adjust quickly to the different style of operating. Civil Operators are not usually blessed with an open chequebook and the inclusion of another radio that is not necessary would be cost prohibitive.
So Crab, I think you will have to accept the realities of life here.
Good luck and safe surfing!
Gunz.
Thread Starter
Thanks flygunz that's a beer I owe you.
Sasless - if you haven't got the radio facility and can't talk to anyone then so be it, that as you say is the reason you get paid lots. But if the facility is there and you choose not to use it then that, in my book, is foolish.
I accept the economic realities of life in the cruel, harsh world of civil aviation but it don't make it right and, as flygunz said, I am only coming at this from a flight safety perspective.
SS - get with the programme - weekend, Valley shut etc - do I have to keep spelling it out?
Thud and Blunder - I think your example is more about customer feedback and satisfaction than CRM or flight safety - the answer is to only employ the non-numpty ex-mil guys! Being safe to the tolerances of the monitoring organisations means doing the absolute bare minimum to avoid being dangerous which is not the same as promoting fight safety.
Sasless - if you haven't got the radio facility and can't talk to anyone then so be it, that as you say is the reason you get paid lots. But if the facility is there and you choose not to use it then that, in my book, is foolish.
I accept the economic realities of life in the cruel, harsh world of civil aviation but it don't make it right and, as flygunz said, I am only coming at this from a flight safety perspective.
SS - get with the programme - weekend, Valley shut etc - do I have to keep spelling it out?
Thud and Blunder - I think your example is more about customer feedback and satisfaction than CRM or flight safety - the answer is to only employ the non-numpty ex-mil guys! Being safe to the tolerances of the monitoring organisations means doing the absolute bare minimum to avoid being dangerous which is not the same as promoting fight safety.
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I think the addition of a second radio adds very little for a proportionally big cost. There is of course no such thing as 100% safety and nor can it be at any cost. There will always remain an element of calculated risk. That's the reality of the civil world where commercial interests do play a leading part.
Personally, on the military side of things, I'd much rather see them spend their money on something which really would enhance safety. For example TCAS (or similar) on low level aircraft, which they have been talking about doing for decades now but never seem to quite get around to it. Or perhaps black boxes on aircraft such as Chinooks. Real and tangible benefits would be provided for not only the military but other operators as well.
Personally, on the military side of things, I'd much rather see them spend their money on something which really would enhance safety. For example TCAS (or similar) on low level aircraft, which they have been talking about doing for decades now but never seem to quite get around to it. Or perhaps black boxes on aircraft such as Chinooks. Real and tangible benefits would be provided for not only the military but other operators as well.
Thread Starter
But then you get the same argument from the miltary bean counters - TCAS costs money and reduces payload for no military benefit - the fact that it might alert FJ to other air users is ignored since there have been few midairs (fortunately) so there is no cost benefit to the military.
HUMS and other blackboxes are already on Chinooks and are even being retrofitted to Sea King - but only because the military sees a benefit in engineering savings from doing so.
So it really is not much different on the other side of the fence since cost determines just about everything - it doesn't stop people having a healthy interest in flight safety.
However if the military really did have an unlimited budget for FS issues (which it most certainly does not) we would have had anticipators fitted to the Puma when the first board of inquiry recommended it!
HUMS and other blackboxes are already on Chinooks and are even being retrofitted to Sea King - but only because the military sees a benefit in engineering savings from doing so.
So it really is not much different on the other side of the fence since cost determines just about everything - it doesn't stop people having a healthy interest in flight safety.
However if the military really did have an unlimited budget for FS issues (which it most certainly does not) we would have had anticipators fitted to the Puma when the first board of inquiry recommended it!
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"However if the military really did have an unlimited budget for FS issues (which it most certainly does not) we would have had anticipators fitted to the Puma when the first board of inquiry recommended it!"
Or even before that - when Handling Sqn, Boscombe Down, said that the aircraft should not be allowed to enter RAF service without engine anticipators in the first place?
Or even before that - when Handling Sqn, Boscombe Down, said that the aircraft should not be allowed to enter RAF service without engine anticipators in the first place?
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
crab
Unfortunately crab, Yes. That is if you want to specify the rules as you go along!
In this case perhaps it would be more pertainant to maintain the company/operating airfield freqs as these would more than likely be monitored by the 'passing a/c' in question.
As a matter of fact in this weekends case, the R44 was in contact with crab himself during this incident on the local helicopter departure frequency, which apparently SAR used regularly to inform them of their positions.
The whole issue of this thread is about crabs misinterpretation of the events.
The mountain flying course were aware of the TDA and later asked what is all about. I suspect the broadcast did not specify why a TDA has been set up and that is why he was asked about it.
Finally, the reason the 5 out of 6 a/c weren't monitoring 121.5 (crabs figures) is because they were on a course on a company freq. The No6 (R44) was monitoring both freqs!
crab@overflys the operating base for the MF course!.
Makes me wonder what freq the course should do a 'lifting call' on!!
SS
SS- if you are flying in Snowdonia and have a problem and put out a mayday on 121.5 because you are in class G airspace without an ATC service then unless you are above 2-3000' the only people who will hear you are other aircraft in the area monitoring 121.5 - oh dear nobody wants to do that so you are stuffed until overdue action is taken.
In Snowdonia, perhaps a passing a/c will more than likely monitor Valley. Don't Ops Normal calls apply any more?
SS - get with the programme - weekend, Valley shut etc - do I have to keep spelling it out?
In this case perhaps it would be more pertainant to maintain the company/operating airfield freqs as these would more than likely be monitored by the 'passing a/c' in question.
As a matter of fact in this weekends case, the R44 was in contact with crab himself during this incident on the local helicopter departure frequency, which apparently SAR used regularly to inform them of their positions.
The whole issue of this thread is about crabs misinterpretation of the events.
The mountain flying course were aware of the TDA and later asked what is all about. I suspect the broadcast did not specify why a TDA has been set up and that is why he was asked about it.
Finally, the reason the 5 out of 6 a/c weren't monitoring 121.5 (crabs figures) is because they were on a course on a company freq. The No6 (R44) was monitoring both freqs!
crab@overflys the operating base for the MF course!.
Makes me wonder what freq the course should do a 'lifting call' on!!
SS
Thread Starter
Ah SS - now you have started quoting yourself to try and make your case (the bit about monitoring Valley and ops normals) - there is a job for you in the tabloid press!
You obviously know someone who was on the det but still haven't got your facts right
Not true - when we went back in during the afternoon on a training trip, we talked to the R44 on their company frequency which we had obtained from their hotel. During the SAROP in the morning, we only made broadcasts on 121.5.
Not true - more about other people (who were not there) misinterpreting the events and jumping to conlcusions.
They only questioned it long after the job was complete (again on the telephone). The broadcast for a TDA only says it is for SAROPs which should be enough for anyone.
But all you guys have told me no-one would pay for a second radio and wouldn't listen on 121.5 anyway - clearly the R44 number 6 is a top operator and all round good bloke.
Given the circumstances, the course were most at risk from one of their own helis, as far as arriving and departing from the hotel is concerned - therefore they used their company frequency (as did we) plus information calls to Caernafon Radio. There is a DEPCOM frequency but I don't suppose that gets used much in civvystrasse despite it being there for exactly that reason......bit like 121.5 really
PS - nice picture
You obviously know someone who was on the det but still haven't got your facts right
As a matter of fact in this weekends case, the R44 was in contact with crab himself during this incident on the local helicopter departure frequency, which apparently SAR used regularly to inform them of their positions.
The whole issue of this thread is about crabs misinterpretation of the events.
The mountain flying course were aware of the TDA and later asked what is all about. I suspect the broadcast did not specify why a TDA has been set up and that is why he was asked about it.
Finally, the reason the 5 out of 6 a/c weren't monitoring 121.5 (crabs figures) is because they were on a course on a company freq. The No6 (R44) was monitoring both freqs!
Given the circumstances, the course were most at risk from one of their own helis, as far as arriving and departing from the hotel is concerned - therefore they used their company frequency (as did we) plus information calls to Caernafon Radio. There is a DEPCOM frequency but I don't suppose that gets used much in civvystrasse despite it being there for exactly that reason......bit like 121.5 really
PS - nice picture
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Can that be the end then ? Can we just agree that everyone knew what they were doing ? And that until we catch up with the century and have a text-based, regionalised, automatic delivery of TDAs we will have to live with the fact that TDAs are bound to be an inefficient way to protect SAROPS and others.
And maybe SAROPS might want to reconsider why they use TDAs on such a regular basis when they actually serve little purpose in protecting you from non-mil traffic.
BTW: Edinburgh TRA July 2,3,4 & 6 just creeping out into the system. 2nm rad to 2000 ft. As of yesterday the NOTAM system didn't have the full details and the police tel no was wrong.
See what we mean Crab ? It's a bit of a black art out here.
And maybe SAROPS might want to reconsider why they use TDAs on such a regular basis when they actually serve little purpose in protecting you from non-mil traffic.
BTW: Edinburgh TRA July 2,3,4 & 6 just creeping out into the system. 2nm rad to 2000 ft. As of yesterday the NOTAM system didn't have the full details and the police tel no was wrong.
See what we mean Crab ? It's a bit of a black art out here.
Thread Starter
headsethair - if it is notified in advance then it is probably for an airshow/red arrows type event (the other and main use for a TRA) and will have little to do with the military - if the info is wrong ring the AUS at the CAA.
These TRAs are regularly infringed by GA traffic.
We will continue to use TDAs because, as I said earlier, they protect us from FJ traffic.
Mostafa - am I through to the semi finals yet?
These TRAs are regularly infringed by GA traffic.
We will continue to use TDAs because, as I said earlier, they protect us from FJ traffic.
Mostafa - am I through to the semi finals yet?
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Semi-Finals crab !!!!
Goodness me, IMHO you are the Tim Henman of PPRuNe.
You get us all worked up and then let us down with the realisation that you could never really cut it with the 'real players!!!
Heads Up!
SS
Goodness me, IMHO you are the Tim Henman of PPRuNe.
You get us all worked up and then let us down with the realisation that you could never really cut it with the 'real players!!!
Heads Up!
SS
Somehow I can see Crab in a policy making position at the CAA upon his retirement from the mob.
Does that mean when I demand a TDA for my HEMS...you have to keep out too, crab?
There's always the AIRPROX board to come out to Crab. Now thats a real toothless tiger.
If you are constantly monitoring 121x5, who's on 123x1??????
There's always the AIRPROX board to come out to Crab. Now thats a real toothless tiger.
If you are constantly monitoring 121x5, who's on 123x1??????
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Crab: "These TRAs are regularly infringed by GA traffic."
If they are, then the c**p dissemination of information is largely to blame. I'm certain that no GA pilot would knowingly fly through a TRA, bearing in mind the consequences.
Roll on mode S, maybe, and roll on someone with half a brain who can improve on the information distribution.
When I'm in my car I can call a simple 3-digit number on my phone - the system senses where I am and gives me relevant up-to-date traffic info.
So the tech is there and cheaply available - but yet again aviation is held back by its own rules. The intransigence of the certification rules is making life more dangerous for all.
If they are, then the c**p dissemination of information is largely to blame. I'm certain that no GA pilot would knowingly fly through a TRA, bearing in mind the consequences.
Roll on mode S, maybe, and roll on someone with half a brain who can improve on the information distribution.
When I'm in my car I can call a simple 3-digit number on my phone - the system senses where I am and gives me relevant up-to-date traffic info.
So the tech is there and cheaply available - but yet again aviation is held back by its own rules. The intransigence of the certification rules is making life more dangerous for all.
Thread Starter
Headsethair - I didn't make it up about TRAs -see this site
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/infstats.asp
Your phone is clever but unless it is mandated by the CAA will anyone fit it to their aircraft?
TC - yes, I have to keep out too - you'll be pleased to know. But I can monitor 121.5 and use 123.1, all at the same time( that superfluous TR+G setting civvies won't pay for) - and UHF, HF and VHF marine - but despite years of requests, we still don't have direct comms with the police ground units or ambulance control.
SS - better than being the ball-boy though!
SASless - now that could be a fun job................
http://www.flyontrack.co.uk/infstats.asp
Your phone is clever but unless it is mandated by the CAA will anyone fit it to their aircraft?
TC - yes, I have to keep out too - you'll be pleased to know. But I can monitor 121.5 and use 123.1, all at the same time( that superfluous TR+G setting civvies won't pay for) - and UHF, HF and VHF marine - but despite years of requests, we still don't have direct comms with the police ground units or ambulance control.
SS - better than being the ball-boy though!
SASless - now that could be a fun job................
Crab,
Wulfsberg makes some wonderful radio's.....you can talk to just about everyone in the world shy of the Almighty on the things....but it costs money. Lots of money...to have that capability.
I have flown them in the US....very nice pieces of kit...but it takes coordination between all the agencies involved to work out a signals plan that works.
The usual major road block to that success was the "my way or the highway attitudes held by some of the agencies".
Wulfsberg makes some wonderful radio's.....you can talk to just about everyone in the world shy of the Almighty on the things....but it costs money. Lots of money...to have that capability.
I have flown them in the US....very nice pieces of kit...but it takes coordination between all the agencies involved to work out a signals plan that works.
The usual major road block to that success was the "my way or the highway attitudes held by some of the agencies".