Training, hours building and first job prospects in America
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 52
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From: Canada
Hi, there is a school in NJ called pegasus
www.pegasus-flight.com
or you could find more fixed base operators on
www.landings.com
I used to work at pegasus when it was called a different name buts its about 30 min drive from newyork 10/15 min flight time.
machines were always well looked after.
Cheers Lee...
www.pegasus-flight.com
or you could find more fixed base operators on
www.landings.com
I used to work at pegasus when it was called a different name buts its about 30 min drive from newyork 10/15 min flight time.
machines were always well looked after.
Cheers Lee...
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: U.S.A.
Horizon Helicopters in northren DE. The owner is the best helicopter pilot I know of and their lowest time pilot has like 7,000 hours. My dad flies for them on the side and they have some nice helicopters.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Need B47 Advice...
Howdy! I'm an R22 pilot who is trying to learn from a broader base of experience in a few other types (B47, 280FX, B2B, 300CB). Towards that goal, I spent my 2nd hour in the B47 and I'm still having an issue coordinating throttle control and other actions during quick-stop. For example, one time I focused too much on throttle control and didn't apply enough right pedal and spent too much time correcting that (before leveling the ship, etc, etc). Although the Robbie has me very spoiled with the governor, I don't seem to have any problems with other B47 maneuvers (autos, max perf, etc). I'm just beginning to get used to the "play" in the throttle control, but I could really use a few pointers from you B47 veterans out there. Any suggestions?
B47 Flight
Thanks in advance!
B47 Flight
Thanks in advance!
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
From: Australia
RDRickster,
As mentioned above, coming from an ungoverned R22 in the past to a B47 was easier back then. You usually knew to lead with the throttle when you reduced collective in any manouvre outside the norm.
I have two rules for driving a 47 -
1) Always lead with the throttle. For example if you are about to do a quick stop, role the throttle back till you can feel a slight back pressure coming from the correlation box. When you feel the correlation come into play you can be pretty sure that any further reduction in throttle will produce an RPM response. Read on for the rest.....
2) Always control RRPM with the collective. This is by far the easiest (and safest) way to control the RPM in a 47 no matter whether it has heavy weight blades or not. In the mustering game conducting quick stops, it is normal to completely role off the throttle alltogether and control the RRPM soley with the collective. It is also easier to feel the engine re-engage with the rotor system when you wind the throttle back on to fly away.
As you probably know the biggest difference between an R22 and a B47 is the correlation. It is well documented that it you find yourself in a low RRPM situation in a 22 you must wack on the throttle before lowering the collective. This is due to the exceptional correlation of the Robbo, when you lower collective you also reduce ERPM. This inherently teaches you a mind set to control RRPM with the throttle. In 47's, the only effective way to control RRPM is with collective, as the higher inertia in the rotor system makes the throttle response lag so far behind.
The only other suggestion is to Listen to the RPM whilst doing any manouvre. In the end you won't even need to watch the gauge.
Hope this helps
Cheers
As mentioned above, coming from an ungoverned R22 in the past to a B47 was easier back then. You usually knew to lead with the throttle when you reduced collective in any manouvre outside the norm.
I have two rules for driving a 47 -
1) Always lead with the throttle. For example if you are about to do a quick stop, role the throttle back till you can feel a slight back pressure coming from the correlation box. When you feel the correlation come into play you can be pretty sure that any further reduction in throttle will produce an RPM response. Read on for the rest.....
2) Always control RRPM with the collective. This is by far the easiest (and safest) way to control the RPM in a 47 no matter whether it has heavy weight blades or not. In the mustering game conducting quick stops, it is normal to completely role off the throttle alltogether and control the RRPM soley with the collective. It is also easier to feel the engine re-engage with the rotor system when you wind the throttle back on to fly away.
As you probably know the biggest difference between an R22 and a B47 is the correlation. It is well documented that it you find yourself in a low RRPM situation in a 22 you must wack on the throttle before lowering the collective. This is due to the exceptional correlation of the Robbo, when you lower collective you also reduce ERPM. This inherently teaches you a mind set to control RRPM with the throttle. In 47's, the only effective way to control RRPM is with collective, as the higher inertia in the rotor system makes the throttle response lag so far behind.
The only other suggestion is to Listen to the RPM whilst doing any manouvre. In the end you won't even need to watch the gauge.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
From: North
Helicopter in NY-NJ area
You may want to all Panarama Flight support at The Westchester County Airport. They have a 300C helicopter. Also Centenial helicopters in Danbury Ct. Which has R-22's. Westchester Airport is located 20 minutes North of NY City and Danbury airport about 90 minutes north of NY City. I think the Wx will be out of the area by Sunday Sept. 21.
Good luck.
Skycop9
Good luck.
Skycop9
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 217
Likes: 0
From: TI
While you are at it next time try changing the RRPM with a fixed MP. Brings in something different in the way you do things. It will also help on approach's. Being able to maintain a fixed MP and alter the RPM to suit makes for very clean stable approach's. Every time you change the MP means you will have to change the pedal input accordingly. PIO in the yaw channel!
End 2 bob -
End 2 bob -
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: USA
Rick
My 2 cents is to strongly echo Rotortorque' s last tip for ERPM
Mother Rucker used the OH-13T for Instrument transition (YES, simulated IFR, frosted bubbles and all in 1965)
The crusty old Warrant CFI's required us (especially brown bar lieutenants) to be able to call out engine RPM by sound alone..suction cup shield on my view of tach.
After a few days of calling, and comparing, it made the division of attention during maneuvers much easier, tach became crosscheck to fine tune, ears were primary
W-4 would carry a baton like wand, and whack my APH-5 helmet to interrupt my fixation and signal his desire for me to call out what I heard the engine RPM to be
Got so ingrained that the first couple oh rounds hitting my Huey in RVN (Post Graduate School for most 1965 Rotorheads), I was thinking my RPM was too high or low checking
Also, Why not a B2A....those egg bumps in the bubble over the pilot heads are real nostalgia items for us old gaseous guys
My 2 cents is to strongly echo Rotortorque' s last tip for ERPM
Mother Rucker used the OH-13T for Instrument transition (YES, simulated IFR, frosted bubbles and all in 1965)
The crusty old Warrant CFI's required us (especially brown bar lieutenants) to be able to call out engine RPM by sound alone..suction cup shield on my view of tach.
After a few days of calling, and comparing, it made the division of attention during maneuvers much easier, tach became crosscheck to fine tune, ears were primary
W-4 would carry a baton like wand, and whack my APH-5 helmet to interrupt my fixation and signal his desire for me to call out what I heard the engine RPM to be
Got so ingrained that the first couple oh rounds hitting my Huey in RVN (Post Graduate School for most 1965 Rotorheads), I was thinking my RPM was too high or low checking
Also, Why not a B2A....those egg bumps in the bubble over the pilot heads are real nostalgia items for us old gaseous guys
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
B2A Egg Bumps...
I don't think there's any B2A's in my area. In fact, just to fly the B2B (with a B2B CFI) - I have to drive about five hours. I'm doing that next weekend for a half-day of training, and I think their bubble has the egg bumps, too. I'll let you know. If you are really nestalgic, take a look at this restored ship...
Restored B2B
Restored B2B
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 0
From: London
RDR
As you know I don't have much B47 time but, based on very limited experience, I think there's a little more 'play' in the throttle of the B47 we flew at Blue Ridge than the others I've flown. Apparently they all give with use so it may depend upon when the cable was last replaced.
The play may increase the time lag between adjustment and effect. Those of us who trained on the R22 are instinctively paranoid about RRPM so I suspect we're inclined to make a further adjustment instead of waiting for the initial input to take effect. If you wait for your initial small adjustment to take effect, you'll probably find it's enough.
I found it easier in most circumstances to control RRPM with collective.
I began to get used to the sound of the engine RPM, but I'm a long way off being able to rely upon sound alone!
Great fun - enjoyed meeting you. Thanks for sending me the photograph.
BTW, I've posted a few pics from my flight down the Shenandoah Valley and back along the Blue Ridge Mountains on the 'Rotorheads Around the World' thread. Wonderful trip - highly recommended.
Tudor
As you know I don't have much B47 time but, based on very limited experience, I think there's a little more 'play' in the throttle of the B47 we flew at Blue Ridge than the others I've flown. Apparently they all give with use so it may depend upon when the cable was last replaced.
The play may increase the time lag between adjustment and effect. Those of us who trained on the R22 are instinctively paranoid about RRPM so I suspect we're inclined to make a further adjustment instead of waiting for the initial input to take effect. If you wait for your initial small adjustment to take effect, you'll probably find it's enough.
I found it easier in most circumstances to control RRPM with collective.
I began to get used to the sound of the engine RPM, but I'm a long way off being able to rely upon sound alone!
Great fun - enjoyed meeting you. Thanks for sending me the photograph.
BTW, I've posted a few pics from my flight down the Shenandoah Valley and back along the Blue Ridge Mountains on the 'Rotorheads Around the World' thread. Wonderful trip - highly recommended.
Tudor
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 30th September 2003 at 08:04.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 121
Likes: 0
From: Australia
FL,
Just for a bit of info the 47 uses push pull tubes only to control the throttle as apposed to cables. The correlation box used to ‘try’ and give a relationship between RRPM and ERPM is a fairly interesting bit of kit. The slop you feel in the throttle of a 47 is predominately associated with this correlation box and the wear and tear inside.
Cheers
Cheers
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
Blueridge B47 Flying...
Tudor,
Great fun, that B47! I'll be going back there soon to practice some of the recommendations above. Nice meeting you, as well. Now that I've tasted the B47 and B2B, I'll try my hand at the 280FX and 300Cbi next.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. If any other PPRuNe rotorhead is in the Washington, D.C. area - send me a PM if you're interested in a beer or possibly some flying.
Great fun, that B47! I'll be going back there soon to practice some of the recommendations above. Nice meeting you, as well. Now that I've tasted the B47 and B2B, I'll try my hand at the 280FX and 300Cbi next.
Regards,
Rick
P.S. If any other PPRuNe rotorhead is in the Washington, D.C. area - send me a PM if you're interested in a beer or possibly some flying.
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 2,913
Likes: 0
From: London
Thanks for the correction Rotorque.
BTW, if anyone is interested in flying a Bell 47 at American prices when visiting the East Coast, I highly recommend:
Blue Ridge Helicopters near Winchester, Virginia about 1.5 hrs drive West of Washington, DC. The Blue Ridge Mountains and Shenandoah Valley are stunningly beautiful. I've posted some photographs in 'Rotorheads Around the World' - they don't do justice to the scenery, but give some idea.
Dutch Country Helicopters at Lancaster, Pennsylvania is about 1.5 hrs West of Philadelphia in the heart of Amish country - not as scenic as Virginia, but very interesting. There can't be many places in the Western world where you can still see people ploughing fields with mules and riding around in buggies.
Nothing to choose between the two schools. Both helicopters were well-maintained, both instructors were excellent and very experienced on the B47 and both charge $250 pr hr dual (no tax) - about £150!
BTW, if anyone is interested in flying a Bell 47 at American prices when visiting the East Coast, I highly recommend:
Blue Ridge Helicopters near Winchester, Virginia about 1.5 hrs drive West of Washington, DC. The Blue Ridge Mountains and Shenandoah Valley are stunningly beautiful. I've posted some photographs in 'Rotorheads Around the World' - they don't do justice to the scenery, but give some idea.
Dutch Country Helicopters at Lancaster, Pennsylvania is about 1.5 hrs West of Philadelphia in the heart of Amish country - not as scenic as Virginia, but very interesting. There can't be many places in the Western world where you can still see people ploughing fields with mules and riding around in buggies.
Nothing to choose between the two schools. Both helicopters were well-maintained, both instructors were excellent and very experienced on the B47 and both charge $250 pr hr dual (no tax) - about £150!
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 2nd October 2003 at 14:54.
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 321
Likes: 0
From: Pennsylvania, USA
Dutch Country Helicopters
Just a correction to Tudor Owen's posting about Dutch Country Helicopters, Their price, all in is $220 per hour. At the moment that is 132 pounds an hour! They will give you a car and put you up. They have 3 Bell 47's.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 563
Likes: 1
From: queensland australia
the early model 47's had a cable throttle as do the tomcats today.
it is a better system than the later throttle cam box but alas they changed it.
47's throttles are pretty much all different depending on the degree of wear in the cam box, you get used to it after a while.
for the best control you should always remember to take up the slack in the mechanical linkage after you have reduced power, that way you will have less chance of the rotor rpm decaying when you raise the collective, especially on approach.
think ahead.
it is a better system than the later throttle cam box but alas they changed it.
47's throttles are pretty much all different depending on the degree of wear in the cam box, you get used to it after a while.
for the best control you should always remember to take up the slack in the mechanical linkage after you have reduced power, that way you will have less chance of the rotor rpm decaying when you raise the collective, especially on approach.
think ahead.