Rotorway Corner
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There is also an issue with their secondary drive train (whether or not you use the 35mm upgrade). See the following for details, this guy seems to know what he's talking about (or at least has the data to back his statements)...
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm
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Pilot killed in homebuild crash
Idaho Press report
Canyon County pilot dies in crash
CALDWELL
CALDWELL
-- A longtime Canyon County pilot, aircraft designer and businessman died doing his life's passion when his helicopter crashed into the Payette River near Montour.
Buford John Schramm, known to most people as B.J., was killed Tuesday afternoon when his single passenger helicopter crashed into the Payette River above Black Canyon Reservoir.
The helicopter -- described by police as an experimental single-person aircraft -- was spotted from an airplane Wednesday afternoon, upside down in less than three feet of water, with only the skids visible.
Investigators said Schramm, who was found still strapped into the machine, died on impact.
The crash left several members of the local aviation community reflecting on the loss.
Schramm was known worldwide for his work as a helicopter pilot and designer. He had spent 35 years designing, manufacturing and test flying his own creations. His last six years were spent as owner of Eagle Research and Development, a helicopter design and manufacturing company located in Nampa.
"He was such a good pilot," said Stuart Fields, a California broker for Safari kit helicopters, who knew Schramm from summer air shows. "He knew the helicopter business as well as anybody."
Schramm's wife, Carolyn, said her husband was flying a single-person helicopter at the time of his death. The aircraft is called the Helicycle.
Schramm designed and manufactured the Helicycle and insisted on testing the models himself as a safety precaution. On several occasions, Schramm had crashed his own creations and walked away.
Carolyn indicated she was at peace with her husband's decision to be a test pilot.
"That was part of his life," she said. "That's what he did."
But Tuesday's ride in the Helicycle was not a test run.
On that particular day, Schramm was accompanied by a commercial chopper and photographer who was assisting with a promotional piece for the Helicycle. Carolyn said the first helicopter turned back, but Schramm, who stayed to get one last shot with his helmet camera, failed to return.
Gem County Sheriff Lt. Jim Barnhart said authorities became aware of the situation Tuesday just before 5 p.m., through a phone call. The caller said Schramm had left with one hour of fuel in his tank, but it had been two hours since he had taken off from the store in Montour.
Sheriff's deputies spent the remainder of Tuesday and several hours Wednesday searching for the downed aircraft. The helicopter was spotted by a state Division of Aeronautics search aircraft Wednesday afternoon.
Barnhart said the Federal Aviation Administration is conducting an investigation to determine what caused the crash.
Carolyn Schramm said she and her husband had been married for 33 years, the last 13 of those living in Caldwell. They have two grown children and two grandchildren. She said Schramm also loved to ski and was a devout Christian.
But flying and designing were all he had ever wanted to do in his life, she added.
"Some of us were meant to be farmers," she said. "Some of us were meant to fly."
Buford John Schramm, known to most people as B.J., was killed Tuesday afternoon when his single passenger helicopter crashed into the Payette River above Black Canyon Reservoir.
The helicopter -- described by police as an experimental single-person aircraft -- was spotted from an airplane Wednesday afternoon, upside down in less than three feet of water, with only the skids visible.
Investigators said Schramm, who was found still strapped into the machine, died on impact.
The crash left several members of the local aviation community reflecting on the loss.
Schramm was known worldwide for his work as a helicopter pilot and designer. He had spent 35 years designing, manufacturing and test flying his own creations. His last six years were spent as owner of Eagle Research and Development, a helicopter design and manufacturing company located in Nampa.
"He was such a good pilot," said Stuart Fields, a California broker for Safari kit helicopters, who knew Schramm from summer air shows. "He knew the helicopter business as well as anybody."
Schramm's wife, Carolyn, said her husband was flying a single-person helicopter at the time of his death. The aircraft is called the Helicycle.
Schramm designed and manufactured the Helicycle and insisted on testing the models himself as a safety precaution. On several occasions, Schramm had crashed his own creations and walked away.
Carolyn indicated she was at peace with her husband's decision to be a test pilot.
"That was part of his life," she said. "That's what he did."
But Tuesday's ride in the Helicycle was not a test run.
On that particular day, Schramm was accompanied by a commercial chopper and photographer who was assisting with a promotional piece for the Helicycle. Carolyn said the first helicopter turned back, but Schramm, who stayed to get one last shot with his helmet camera, failed to return.
Gem County Sheriff Lt. Jim Barnhart said authorities became aware of the situation Tuesday just before 5 p.m., through a phone call. The caller said Schramm had left with one hour of fuel in his tank, but it had been two hours since he had taken off from the store in Montour.
Sheriff's deputies spent the remainder of Tuesday and several hours Wednesday searching for the downed aircraft. The helicopter was spotted by a state Division of Aeronautics search aircraft Wednesday afternoon.
Barnhart said the Federal Aviation Administration is conducting an investigation to determine what caused the crash.
Carolyn Schramm said she and her husband had been married for 33 years, the last 13 of those living in Caldwell. They have two grown children and two grandchildren. She said Schramm also loved to ski and was a devout Christian.
But flying and designing were all he had ever wanted to do in his life, she added.
"Some of us were meant to be farmers," she said. "Some of us were meant to fly."
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Tribute from RotorWay International website
It is with great shock and sadness that we express our condolences to the family and friends of a true aviation pioneer, B. J. Schramm. Founder of RotorWay Aircraft (later to evolve into employee-owned RotorWay International), he died in a helicopter crash in Idaho. After conducting a photo shoot in his Helicycle single-seat helicopter, he was reported missing. Yesterday, he was found in a river, still strapped in his helicopter.
B. J. Schramm began working on affordable helicopters for the average man over forty years ago. His dream became a reality when he created RotorWay Aircraft and debuted the one-place Scorpion helicopter at the Oshkosh air show almost thirty-eight years ago. Eventually, the company introduced the Scorpion Too (a two-seater), which then led to even bigger successes. Soon, the Executive helicopter premiered and gave personal helicopter ownership a sleek new look and set ever-higher standards for the kit-built industry to follow.
When the company was purchased by John Netherwood and then became RotorWay International in 1990, B. J. Schramm went on to create his new company, which produced the Helicycle.
B. J. Schramm - In Memoriam April 29, 2004
It is with great shock and sadness that we express our condolences to the family and friends of a true aviation pioneer, B. J. Schramm. Founder of RotorWay Aircraft (later to evolve into employee-owned RotorWay International), he died in a helicopter crash in Idaho. After conducting a photo shoot in his Helicycle single-seat helicopter, he was reported missing. Yesterday, he was found in a river, still strapped in his helicopter.
B. J. Schramm began working on affordable helicopters for the average man over forty years ago. His dream became a reality when he created RotorWay Aircraft and debuted the one-place Scorpion helicopter at the Oshkosh air show almost thirty-eight years ago. Eventually, the company introduced the Scorpion Too (a two-seater), which then led to even bigger successes. Soon, the Executive helicopter premiered and gave personal helicopter ownership a sleek new look and set ever-higher standards for the kit-built industry to follow.
When the company was purchased by John Netherwood and then became RotorWay International in 1990, B. J. Schramm went on to create his new company, which produced the Helicycle.
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What a shocker. I spoke to B.J. over the phone a couple times last year, and he was very generous with his time. He seemed to be the kind of person that would share his in-sights and experience with anyone. I'm sure there are many on this forum who know him personally. Condolenses to the family and a great loss to small business aviation community.
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From the Helicycle Website...
There will be a funeral for BJ Schramm next Thursday, the 6th of may at 2:00pm at:
Canyon Hill Church of the Nazarene
903 North Michigan
Caldwell ID 83605
All friends and builders are welcome to attend.
Builders: Please contact the factory regarding an anti bacteria additive for kerosene and diesel fuel. 208-461-2567
Canyon Hill Church of the Nazarene
903 North Michigan
Caldwell ID 83605
All friends and builders are welcome to attend.
Builders: Please contact the factory regarding an anti bacteria additive for kerosene and diesel fuel. 208-461-2567
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Rotarway vs. Robinson?
First off guys can you tell me which is better? I'm assuming Robinson because that is what 80% of flight schools use to teach students. What is wrong with Rotarway? Is it because they are an experimental aircraft and aren't assembled by a factory? I found a 2001 Rotarway Exec. 162-F Helicopter for sale. Its only got 46 TT. I'm assuming TT stands for "Total Time"??? When looking at a used helicopter what are low hours and what are high hours? Why or why not rotary? They are a lot cheaper than Robinson. I do recall a failur rate with Rotarway though. What are your guys' thoughts on these two aircrafts? Also can someone explain the different kinds of Robinson R22's and R44's such as the R22 Alpah, R22 Betta and the R22 Beta II. Also what about the R44 Astro, R44 Clipper, R44 Clipper II and the R44 Raven? Any bad things about the Mariners? I live on a lake and thought that would be cool. Wish I could afford a robinson.
BTW, I have decided to finish school or go as long as I can if I don't finish it and get my private license up here in NY to see if I like it. After I am done with college I will then go on to flight school. Does anyone know of any place in NY or PA to get your private license? Thank you to everyone who helped me. I can't wait to join you guys in the sky. Take care.
Jared
BTW, I have decided to finish school or go as long as I can if I don't finish it and get my private license up here in NY to see if I like it. After I am done with college I will then go on to flight school. Does anyone know of any place in NY or PA to get your private license? Thank you to everyone who helped me. I can't wait to join you guys in the sky. Take care.
Jared
Last edited by JaredYoung; 29th Jun 2004 at 01:14.
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Rotorway = High Risk Hobby
There is a serious flaw in the secondary drive shaft. See this analysis...
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm
http://www.epi-eng.com/RW_TOC.htm
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They fly out of Stellar airpark right next to my school and Ive seen them trailered off at least 6 times, theyve had 3 failures forcing autorotation, and one rollover. All this with two ships in about 1 year. Not good statistics
The Original Whirly
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I seriously considered a Rotorway Exec. I agree - they do look good on the face of it. Then I talked to someone who'd been involved with the FAA and knew about the accident statistics. Now...I wouldn't fly one if you paid me - and I don't say that about many things that fly. 
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Somewhere on the Prune is another thread about certain mechanical problems with the Exec. Try a search.
Also, I've noticed very cheap low time Execs advertised for sale over the years in this country.
Also, I've noticed very cheap low time Execs advertised for sale over the years in this country.
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My understanding (from 'A Helicopter is Born' on Discovery) was that the Exec doesn't have an overhaul life as such; once it gets to 2500 hours, you don't return it to the factory or agent; you chuck it in a skip and buy a new one.
A test I read mentioned that on the example flown there was no low-rpm horn fitted. Reckon that if it's a good idea on the Robbo (and the JR, and (insert list here)) then it would be a good idea on the Exec.
A test I read mentioned that on the example flown there was no low-rpm horn fitted. Reckon that if it's a good idea on the Robbo (and the JR, and (insert list here)) then it would be a good idea on the Exec.
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Rotorway vs. Robinson?
A friend of mine who owns one, informs me that power available is marginal at best. Or as he described it, Two tubby buggers int front an it wor lift off.
Kit Helicopters
It's funny, over the years many of the people that I have come into contact with in the industry both in the UK and abroad have at one time given serious thought to building a Rotorway. Inevitabley the vast majority are put off by the appauling safety record and limited performance.
It would be interesting to know however, if the Rotorway were as mechanically reliable as the R22 how many R22 SFH'ers would buy and build a Rotorway?
Perhaps Heliport might consider turning this thread into a poll?
CRAN
[Edited for typos]
It would be interesting to know however, if the Rotorway were as mechanically reliable as the R22 how many R22 SFH'ers would buy and build a Rotorway?
Perhaps Heliport might consider turning this thread into a poll?
CRAN
[Edited for typos]
Last edited by CRAN; 30th Jun 2004 at 09:39.
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A few years back I was in the position of looking at this same question. Spent a couple of years looking and researching - ended up buying a used R22. Overall that was the a better financial and mechanical choice than buying a new Rotorway kit. That must say something!
This was a common thread on the the rec.aviation.rotorcraft newsgroup when I used to frequent it - so common that instead of writing out the same stuff over and over I put it on my website. have a look at:
http://helipics.homestead.com and go to the "To buy or Build" page
This was a common thread on the the rec.aviation.rotorcraft newsgroup when I used to frequent it - so common that instead of writing out the same stuff over and over I put it on my website. have a look at:
http://helipics.homestead.com and go to the "To buy or Build" page
Is the R-22 just as good as you guys are saying?? I heard that insurance companies in States are giving R-22 operators a hard time since they have been crashing left right and center over last years and many of them are changing over to 300cbi now and also that Frank Robinson is not planning to manufacture them for many years from now and focus more on the R-44. But there is no question I would choose Robby rather then Rotorway . But I would try to find an old TH-55 or Bell 47 rather than both Robby or Rotorway
The Original Whirly
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rotorrookie,
The R22 used to have a poor safety record, but it's improved in recent years...unless you know something recent that I don't. The basic problem is that it was designed originally as inexpensive personal transport, not for training. It's twitchy, somewhat unforgiving, and relatively difficult to fly. That said, many of us learned on it, and we find it easy to convert to other helicopters for just that reason; there's something to be said for learning on a difficult machine. Certainly other helicopters are easier to fly...or so they tell me; I haven't flown the Schweizer or Bell 47 or any of the other usual training alternatives. But with adequate training and flown sensibly it's not inherently dangerous, IMHO.
Concerning the Rotorway Exec, I knew two guys who built one. They were small and light, so weight wasn't a problem. They were both engineers, and enjoyed the building and maintaining side - When I met them, they obligingly practically took it to bits to show me everything they could. Even so, they said they'd never do it again. It had cost them far more and taken far longer than it was supposed to. And they said for every hour flown it needed an hour of maintenance or more! We didn't even discuss the safety aspects.
So for me anyway, it's a definite thumbs down for the Rotorway.
The R22 used to have a poor safety record, but it's improved in recent years...unless you know something recent that I don't. The basic problem is that it was designed originally as inexpensive personal transport, not for training. It's twitchy, somewhat unforgiving, and relatively difficult to fly. That said, many of us learned on it, and we find it easy to convert to other helicopters for just that reason; there's something to be said for learning on a difficult machine. Certainly other helicopters are easier to fly...or so they tell me; I haven't flown the Schweizer or Bell 47 or any of the other usual training alternatives. But with adequate training and flown sensibly it's not inherently dangerous, IMHO.
Concerning the Rotorway Exec, I knew two guys who built one. They were small and light, so weight wasn't a problem. They were both engineers, and enjoyed the building and maintaining side - When I met them, they obligingly practically took it to bits to show me everything they could. Even so, they said they'd never do it again. It had cost them far more and taken far longer than it was supposed to. And they said for every hour flown it needed an hour of maintenance or more!
We didn't even discuss the safety aspects. So for me anyway, it's a definite thumbs down for the Rotorway.
In defence of Rotorways.
What's interesting about this thread, and most crewroom/flying club discussions about Rotorways is that in general the overall view is to stay away from them. The accident statistics alone would lead most people to this course of action.
What I cannot accept however, is that with the exception of one person on this thread, no-one has even hovered a Rotorway and most have probably never even seen one in the flesh. Yet, like sheep, peolple continue to make derogatory remarks. What's also interesting is that if any other aircraft was going to get disparaged (take the R22 for example) there would be a band of supporters who'd defend it vociferously. So why not the Rotorway?
There are several good reasons why people don't stick up for the Rotorway:
- the vast majority of people have never seen one, let alone flown in one, so are unlikely to stand in its defence.
- of the few (Brits) I know that fly Rotorways, few post on here.
- many Rotorway owners know the limitations of the helicopter and fly it accordingly, they know it's kit built and don't try to compare it with an R22 in terms of reliability or funtionality - they leave the comparisons for the ill-informed.
- there seems to be a stigma attached to the Rotorway caused by the type of comments that have appeared on this thread, so few people will voluntarily stick their head above the parapet.
So let me try and clear up a few misconceptions (and I will make comparisons to the R22 as this is what the mojority of this audience will be able to relate to):
1. The Rotorway is a kit built helicopter - designed on a budget for enthusiasts that enjoy weilding a spanner as much as gripping a cyclic.
2. The Rotorway has almost identical performance to an R22 - if the R22 is operated in accordance with the the Flight Manual limitations. (The difference is, no-one flies the R22 within the factory prescribed Limit Manifold Pressure. It's just systematically ignored at all levels from basic stude right up to CAA examiners).
3. The Rotorway has very forgiving autorotation characteristics and plenty of time to lower the lever if the engine quits. RRPM control in auto is easy.
4. It has a smooth rotor system; when correctly balanced.
5. It is stable in the hover and forward flight and can often be flown 'hands off' if correctly set-up.
6. When hovered in a cross-wind it is a doddle to maintain a steady heading, just like proper helicopters should be.
7. The Exec162F has a sophisticated fuel injection and engine management system so Carb Heat doesn't exist and malfunctions can be tracked, identified and easily rectified.
What lets the Rotorway down:
1. They're built by amateurs who range from someone you wouldn't let loose to put up a shelf through to highly experienced Formula One engineers. Consequently, build quality is patchy.
2. The engine valve train is basic and requires careful monitoring and adjustment every 25hrs (1/2 hour job if you know what you're doing).
3. The Secondary drive-shaft has suffered from several premature failures as a result of flawed design or installation. Rotorway have reportedly fixed this problem with the upgraded 35mm shaft provided the factory chain drive is used.
4. If they're not balanced properly, and many aren't, they can feel crude and unrefined.
I don't think people should lose sight of what the Rotorway is - a home-built helicopter. It's great fun and relatively affordable to fly but they need regular TLC if you want to rely on them. In fact the R22/Rotorway comparison isn't dissimilar to a C152/Kitfox one.
One final request. If you've never flown one before, please don't give advice about something you probably know nothing about. (I don't comment on S76 threads because I've never flown one but I'd happily give advice on Pumas, A109s or Ec120 for example). If you feel the urge to make comments, do yourself a favour and get behind the sticks of a Rotorway and prepare to be suprised! They're great fun and a whole lot better than most would have you believe.
J
What I cannot accept however, is that with the exception of one person on this thread, no-one has even hovered a Rotorway and most have probably never even seen one in the flesh. Yet, like sheep, peolple continue to make derogatory remarks. What's also interesting is that if any other aircraft was going to get disparaged (take the R22 for example) there would be a band of supporters who'd defend it vociferously. So why not the Rotorway?
There are several good reasons why people don't stick up for the Rotorway:
- the vast majority of people have never seen one, let alone flown in one, so are unlikely to stand in its defence.
- of the few (Brits) I know that fly Rotorways, few post on here.
- many Rotorway owners know the limitations of the helicopter and fly it accordingly, they know it's kit built and don't try to compare it with an R22 in terms of reliability or funtionality - they leave the comparisons for the ill-informed.
- there seems to be a stigma attached to the Rotorway caused by the type of comments that have appeared on this thread, so few people will voluntarily stick their head above the parapet.
So let me try and clear up a few misconceptions (and I will make comparisons to the R22 as this is what the mojority of this audience will be able to relate to):
1. The Rotorway is a kit built helicopter - designed on a budget for enthusiasts that enjoy weilding a spanner as much as gripping a cyclic.
2. The Rotorway has almost identical performance to an R22 - if the R22 is operated in accordance with the the Flight Manual limitations. (The difference is, no-one flies the R22 within the factory prescribed Limit Manifold Pressure. It's just systematically ignored at all levels from basic stude right up to CAA examiners).
3. The Rotorway has very forgiving autorotation characteristics and plenty of time to lower the lever if the engine quits. RRPM control in auto is easy.
4. It has a smooth rotor system; when correctly balanced.
5. It is stable in the hover and forward flight and can often be flown 'hands off' if correctly set-up.
6. When hovered in a cross-wind it is a doddle to maintain a steady heading, just like proper helicopters should be.
7. The Exec162F has a sophisticated fuel injection and engine management system so Carb Heat doesn't exist and malfunctions can be tracked, identified and easily rectified.
What lets the Rotorway down:
1. They're built by amateurs who range from someone you wouldn't let loose to put up a shelf through to highly experienced Formula One engineers. Consequently, build quality is patchy.
2. The engine valve train is basic and requires careful monitoring and adjustment every 25hrs (1/2 hour job if you know what you're doing).
3. The Secondary drive-shaft has suffered from several premature failures as a result of flawed design or installation. Rotorway have reportedly fixed this problem with the upgraded 35mm shaft provided the factory chain drive is used.
4. If they're not balanced properly, and many aren't, they can feel crude and unrefined.
I don't think people should lose sight of what the Rotorway is - a home-built helicopter. It's great fun and relatively affordable to fly but they need regular TLC if you want to rely on them. In fact the R22/Rotorway comparison isn't dissimilar to a C152/Kitfox one.
One final request. If you've never flown one before, please don't give advice about something you probably know nothing about. (I don't comment on S76 threads because I've never flown one but I'd happily give advice on Pumas, A109s or Ec120 for example). If you feel the urge to make comments, do yourself a favour and get behind the sticks of a Rotorway and prepare to be suprised! They're great fun and a whole lot better than most would have you believe.
J