Sussex Police Helicopter Bird Strike
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But seriously, why low fly at 400 feet during the RETURN from a job? We were always urged not to do so for good neighbourliness reasons. It's a well documented fact that the chance of a bird strike is far greater at low level. At my unit (and the company I worked for) used to encourage operating between 1200 and 1500 feet, whenever possible, above the main low level risks (wires, LL fast jets and most birds) and below most light aircraft, whilst being a bit less noisy for the anti-police helicopter lobby on the ground near the unit.
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Skycop
Procedure at Shoreham is to enter the zone at 600' QNH below fixed wing circuit at 1100'.
This puts us at 400'agl over the downs just north of the airfield when re-joining.
Our unit policy is to fly as high as possible for the task in hand.
Glad I could clarify that for you.
We don't transit at low levels for the reason this thread is running!
Procedure at Shoreham is to enter the zone at 600' QNH below fixed wing circuit at 1100'.
This puts us at 400'agl over the downs just north of the airfield when re-joining.
Our unit policy is to fly as high as possible for the task in hand.
Glad I could clarify that for you.
We don't transit at low levels for the reason this thread is running!
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WAATP,
Thanks for that info, glad to hear it.
But why don't they allow you to join the fixed wing circuit, at the higher altitude?
I have never understood why some airfields insist on joining procedures that MUST be different for helis and light fixed wing.
They fly at similar speeds and having a similar arrival for all means less chance of confusion on both sides, especially when the heli pilot isn't familiar with the airfield.
In your case it might have meant you didn't need an expensive aircraft repair. If that bird had hit a little higher you would be talking in a very high pitched voice.
Thanks for that info, glad to hear it.
But why don't they allow you to join the fixed wing circuit, at the higher altitude?
I have never understood why some airfields insist on joining procedures that MUST be different for helis and light fixed wing.
They fly at similar speeds and having a similar arrival for all means less chance of confusion on both sides, especially when the heli pilot isn't familiar with the airfield.
In your case it might have meant you didn't need an expensive aircraft repair. If that bird had hit a little higher you would be talking in a very high pitched voice.
Better red than ...
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I have never understood why some airfields insist on joining procedures that MUST be different for helis and light fixed wing.
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Well, myself and my 3 colleagues (over 100 years of flying experience between us) must be in the minority because we all share the same opinion.
In this case, a local helicopter procedure which obliged the pilot to fly at 400 feet agl 3 miles from an airport (500 foot rule, anyone?) was a factor in a very expensive and potentially disastrous birdstrike.
Perhaps this type of join needs reconsidering.
In this case, a local helicopter procedure which obliged the pilot to fly at 400 feet agl 3 miles from an airport (500 foot rule, anyone?) was a factor in a very expensive and potentially disastrous birdstrike.
Perhaps this type of join needs reconsidering.
This issue of 'safe height to fly' always seems to be based on some mythical topographical area where land is at sea level and most GA flies at 1500 - 2000', mil jets at 500 - 700' and birds at 400' ???
Where is this mythical land?
Common sense should prevail - look at the land your flying over and apply it!
Where I fly, a mil jet doing 300kts can be 50' MSD one moment then 1500 MSD 5 seconds later??
GA same: 500' rural, then crossing a large valley: 2500'??
As for birds around here: pick a height, any height , they love to soar off all ridges??? [100' - 5000']
Obviously there are choke points [transit lanes for jets, VRP's for GA and cliffs for birdies], but outside of this, everyone is everywhere...
They most certainly DON'T adhere to specific height bands???
Where is this mythical land?
Common sense should prevail - look at the land your flying over and apply it!
Where I fly, a mil jet doing 300kts can be 50' MSD one moment then 1500 MSD 5 seconds later??
GA same: 500' rural, then crossing a large valley: 2500'??
As for birds around here: pick a height, any height , they love to soar off all ridges??? [100' - 5000']
Obviously there are choke points [transit lanes for jets, VRP's for GA and cliffs for birdies], but outside of this, everyone is everywhere...
They most certainly DON'T adhere to specific height bands???
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Sky Cop, would i be right in thinking it would be 2 miles out that you would need to be at 600' and the 500' rule doesn't apply because your following a normal joining procedure? I wait to be corrected.
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Sky Cop,
Not all heli's (type and/or pilot) could safely fly an approach at fixed wing circuit and approach speeds. (especially if the airfield has larger fixed wing traffic)
Agree a heli specific routing may make an initial visit harder work. However IMHO a phone call for a pre flight briefing would remove that issue, especially if the joining has a special noise abatement procedure/s.
Also worth considering that there is no real need for heli's to fly a full circuit on joining, unless flying at night.
In the early stages student pilots have enough to cope with without worrying about a quicker fixed wing approaching from behind. Again just MHO based on experience, but I think that where possible keeping heli's on a seperate procedure helps.
As a minor technical issue. The 500' rule states 500 ft clear of any person,vehicle,vessel or structure. Thats a distance not a vertical height, and actual ground clearance is not mentioned. Any responsible heli pilot will be mindful of noise abatement and will fly defensively ensuring an ability to land clear.
As FP states as the approach is a prescribed procedure at a licensed airfield you are exempt the 500' rule but not the land clear portion.
Been into SHM a few times with no problems. Regular heli routings are no probs and the ATC guys/gals are very heli aware/friendly.
Of more importance is the fact that all concerned (except the bird) are ok. Must have refocused the pilots mind a touch!
Can u bbq buzzard
Or will some wheeze stuff and mount it as a trophy.
Sure Cliff could sort it
Not all heli's (type and/or pilot) could safely fly an approach at fixed wing circuit and approach speeds. (especially if the airfield has larger fixed wing traffic)
Agree a heli specific routing may make an initial visit harder work. However IMHO a phone call for a pre flight briefing would remove that issue, especially if the joining has a special noise abatement procedure/s.
Also worth considering that there is no real need for heli's to fly a full circuit on joining, unless flying at night.
In the early stages student pilots have enough to cope with without worrying about a quicker fixed wing approaching from behind. Again just MHO based on experience, but I think that where possible keeping heli's on a seperate procedure helps.
As a minor technical issue. The 500' rule states 500 ft clear of any person,vehicle,vessel or structure. Thats a distance not a vertical height, and actual ground clearance is not mentioned. Any responsible heli pilot will be mindful of noise abatement and will fly defensively ensuring an ability to land clear.
As FP states as the approach is a prescribed procedure at a licensed airfield you are exempt the 500' rule but not the land clear portion.
Been into SHM a few times with no problems. Regular heli routings are no probs and the ATC guys/gals are very heli aware/friendly.
Of more importance is the fact that all concerned (except the bird) are ok. Must have refocused the pilots mind a touch!
Can u bbq buzzard
Or will some wheeze stuff and mount it as a trophy.
Sure Cliff could sort it
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
skycop;
And that's just what it is, an opinion!!
That doesn't necessarily make it the correct solution.
S.O.P. doesn't stand for 'Statement of the Oldest Person'!
If you care to look and read the relevant page in the AIP, you will find WAATP was following the published procedure that he mentioned earlier. It also states, that 'Helicopter arrivals and departures should follow ATC instructions closely...'
Yes, the Capt is ultimately responsible for the safety of the a/c etc, but try telling that to the birdies. What height should they be at?
Do you really think in that part of the world they are unaware of the bird problem?
Why are you trying to place blame, when it's a case of luck.
Here, from 50' up to 2000' there are swifts all over the place, collecting insects to feed their young. Please can your 'council' advise me at what speeds and heights I should be flying, in order to place luck on my side and avoid a similar fate happening to me as WAATP's, Thanks.
p.s. 100 years of flying experience = 876,000 hours
219,000 hours each,!!!! I bow down!
Do you possibly mean aviation experience?
SS
Well, myself and my 3 colleagues (over 100 years of flying experience between us) must be in the minority because we all share the same opinion.
That doesn't necessarily make it the correct solution.
S.O.P. doesn't stand for 'Statement of the Oldest Person'!
If you care to look and read the relevant page in the AIP, you will find WAATP was following the published procedure that he mentioned earlier. It also states, that 'Helicopter arrivals and departures should follow ATC instructions closely...'
Yes, the Capt is ultimately responsible for the safety of the a/c etc, but try telling that to the birdies. What height should they be at?
Do you really think in that part of the world they are unaware of the bird problem?
Why are you trying to place blame, when it's a case of luck.
Here, from 50' up to 2000' there are swifts all over the place, collecting insects to feed their young. Please can your 'council' advise me at what speeds and heights I should be flying, in order to place luck on my side and avoid a similar fate happening to me as WAATP's, Thanks.
p.s. 100 years of flying experience = 876,000 hours
219,000 hours each,!!!! I bow down!
Do you possibly mean aviation experience?
SS
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>Why are you trying to place blame, when it's a case of luck.
Here, from 50' up to 2000' there are swifts all over the place, collecting insects to feed their young. Please can your 'council' advise me at what speeds and heights I should be flying, in order to place luck on my side and avoid a similar fate happening to me as WAATP's, Thanks.<
I'm not trying to place blame, it's just that I was surprised a police helicopter was at 400 ft agl 3 miles out from base returning from a job when usual advice is NOT to do so for a number of reasons. If a pilot on my unit had put himself in this situation for no good reason then he would have been given a word in his ear, both for reasons of noise abatement and considerations of unneccesarily mixing it with low level military jets that transitted our "patch", in addition to the increased risk of a birdstrike. If local ATC procedures require this type of join, as I was politely informed, I was only putting forward the suggestion that those procedures perhaps ought to be reviewed, especially in view of this fairly serious low level birdstrike which could have had more serious, even tragic, consequences.
Most birdstrikes occur below 1000 ft, not my opinion but FACT. I could direct interested parties to some statistics if you like.
Birdstrike avoidance is NOT a case of luck - I'm surprised a professional pilot made that statement!
The advice I'd give on trying to avoid swifts is - you won't; they occur in all height bands because they feed solely on insects which fly at varying heights, mainly dependent on the weather conditions. However, they will avoid you like the plague. They have potential natural airborne predators, they will see a helicopter as such and are very well equipped to get out of your way. In any event, they are only 6.5" long and weigh but a few ounces so it's almost certain that no aircraft damage will result from a collision with one. I can't recall a birdstrike report involving a swift. House martins or swallows yes (they aren't so agile, I've had birdstrikes with them myself) but they are even smaller still.
A Buzzard, on the other hand, being up to 24" in length, is likely to weigh in at up to a kilo, more if it carrying a rabbit! It has NO airborne predators and is territorial. It therefore poses a serious flight safety hazard. It has no reason to keep out of the way of a helicopter, so it might not do so. This one didn't.
Glad they are all OK.
Here, from 50' up to 2000' there are swifts all over the place, collecting insects to feed their young. Please can your 'council' advise me at what speeds and heights I should be flying, in order to place luck on my side and avoid a similar fate happening to me as WAATP's, Thanks.<
I'm not trying to place blame, it's just that I was surprised a police helicopter was at 400 ft agl 3 miles out from base returning from a job when usual advice is NOT to do so for a number of reasons. If a pilot on my unit had put himself in this situation for no good reason then he would have been given a word in his ear, both for reasons of noise abatement and considerations of unneccesarily mixing it with low level military jets that transitted our "patch", in addition to the increased risk of a birdstrike. If local ATC procedures require this type of join, as I was politely informed, I was only putting forward the suggestion that those procedures perhaps ought to be reviewed, especially in view of this fairly serious low level birdstrike which could have had more serious, even tragic, consequences.
Most birdstrikes occur below 1000 ft, not my opinion but FACT. I could direct interested parties to some statistics if you like.
Birdstrike avoidance is NOT a case of luck - I'm surprised a professional pilot made that statement!
The advice I'd give on trying to avoid swifts is - you won't; they occur in all height bands because they feed solely on insects which fly at varying heights, mainly dependent on the weather conditions. However, they will avoid you like the plague. They have potential natural airborne predators, they will see a helicopter as such and are very well equipped to get out of your way. In any event, they are only 6.5" long and weigh but a few ounces so it's almost certain that no aircraft damage will result from a collision with one. I can't recall a birdstrike report involving a swift. House martins or swallows yes (they aren't so agile, I've had birdstrikes with them myself) but they are even smaller still.
A Buzzard, on the other hand, being up to 24" in length, is likely to weigh in at up to a kilo, more if it carrying a rabbit! It has NO airborne predators and is territorial. It therefore poses a serious flight safety hazard. It has no reason to keep out of the way of a helicopter, so it might not do so. This one didn't.
Glad they are all OK.
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Three pages for teddies to fly 
Lets hope we can accept that matters may have been poorly worded but that a logical (in the writers opinion) question was asked.
Failing that I suggest a dual to the death using whats left of the buzzard
Lets hope we can accept that matters may have been poorly worded but that a logical (in the writers opinion) question was asked.
Failing that I suggest a dual to the death using whats left of the buzzard
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SS,
"And that's just what it is, an opinion!! That doesn't necessarily make it the correct solution."
I agree, we are all entitled to an opinion - so why try to belittle mine, based on a good few years of low flying - possibly more than yourself? The CAA, FAA and the military ALL share it, as it happens. All of them publicise their "opinion" that the lower you fly, the more likely you are to suffer a birdstrike. Do your own research but their "opinion" is backed up by facts gathered from birdstrike reports. 80% or so of all birdstrikes occur below 1000 feet and the lower you go, the worse it gets.
"Do you really think in that part of the world they are unaware of the bird problem?"
Not now,
"And that's just what it is, an opinion!! That doesn't necessarily make it the correct solution."
I agree, we are all entitled to an opinion - so why try to belittle mine, based on a good few years of low flying - possibly more than yourself? The CAA, FAA and the military ALL share it, as it happens. All of them publicise their "opinion" that the lower you fly, the more likely you are to suffer a birdstrike. Do your own research but their "opinion" is backed up by facts gathered from birdstrike reports. 80% or so of all birdstrikes occur below 1000 feet and the lower you go, the worse it gets.
"Do you really think in that part of the world they are unaware of the bird problem?"
Not now,
Purveyor of Egg Liqueur to Lucifer
Birdstrike avoidance is NOT a case of luck - I'm surprised a professional pilot made that statement!
Yes we know that rubbish tips, trawlers, nature reserves, coastlines etc aren't the best places to be as far as bird strikes are concerned, but I will still say that there is a vast amout of luck involved.
Either luck or this afternoon I was particularly skillful in avoiding countless swifts and the odd pidgeon and seagull by matters of only inches. How I can fly so accurately I'll never know. Just natural I suppose.....not!!
The reason you can't recall a birdstrike report involving a swift, is perhaps because the bird involved was so small it could not be identified or even found!!
I have a good share of low flying hours myself, however If I was you I, would be careful about starting a p*$$**g match on that one with anyone here!
(Then again with your 219,000 hours I might be on a stickey wicket on that!
I do not doubt the relationship between height/birdstrikes, but by nature of our job, it will happen.
When migrating, birds fly generally at about 5,000 ft, regularly up to 20,000 ft ,the record being reported to be at 29,000 ft (a flock of swans!)
So depending on the time of year all levels are fair game, although the stats do to tend to favour the lower levels for strikes.
Swifts by the way, will go as high as they need to get the insects and if the weather is not suitable in the UK for feeding, they will go to mainland Europe to feed for up to 2 days. They then return to feed the young, who in this time will have been running on fat reserves and would have lost up to 50% of their weight. (Thanks to BBC watch and learn, with signing!)
Concur with the feeling, Glad they are all OK.
SS
Better red than ...
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It has NO airborne predators and is territorial
I believe they are 'programmed' to regard the Eagle shape as an airbourne preditor ??? (as indeed are most birds on the Earth except the Eagle ??).
Most of these birds of prey (Earth form, not Klingon variety) dive at a v fast speed. I have three who patrol my local area and form a hazard to low flying helicopters (and there is nowhere to land if ......)
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Mighty Gem cracking picture of the Eagle, but it's obvious the pilot should have taken the usual advice and wrapped it in cling film first before trying to be it's friend...... Still I guess thats the price of flying glass cockpits now..you need something to kill the boredom
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Hey guys should a bird not run for cover when it sees the big mechanical birdy in the sky?? But then again it was an MD902..Guess it was so surprised to see it airborne it just gave up on life
Anyway we can laugh now but it must have been bloody scary at the time.. (I am on about the Bird not the 902)
Anyway we can laugh now but it must have been bloody scary at the time.. (I am on about the Bird not the 902)
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Sid,
"I have a good share of low flying hours myself, however If I was you I, would be careful about starting a p*$$**g match on that one with anyone here!"
I have no reason to; everyone else seems to think you have cornered the market on the "Lynx down on SPTA" topic.
"Then again with your 219,000 hours I might be on a stickey wicket on that!"
It's not quite that many - I spent some time reading, which is something you might try one day, in order to get with it a little more, instead of looking in the mirror so much.
"I do not doubt the relationship between height/birdstrikes"
So what is your argument then? That is my original point - you've just agreed with it. Thanks for your support. Goodbye.
"I have a good share of low flying hours myself, however If I was you I, would be careful about starting a p*$$**g match on that one with anyone here!"
I have no reason to; everyone else seems to think you have cornered the market on the "Lynx down on SPTA" topic.
"Then again with your 219,000 hours I might be on a stickey wicket on that!"
It's not quite that many - I spent some time reading, which is something you might try one day, in order to get with it a little more, instead of looking in the mirror so much.
"I do not doubt the relationship between height/birdstrikes"
So what is your argument then? That is my original point - you've just agreed with it. Thanks for your support. Goodbye.