time to 1st solo rotary

[perfrej]

"Learning" to fly or having it lured out of you naturally

OK, I'm just a PPL with 375 hrs total time and rated on the 300, 330, MD500 and B206, but I have a definate opinion about the issue of becoming a rotory wing pilot. I have been around the business since I got my PPL(H) in 1996 and have met a number of different pilots. There are two types as I see it: the ones who have LEARNED to fly, and the ones who "had it in them" and were fortunate to have an instructur who was good luring it out of them.

I once sat in a military machine with a pilot who had around 2000 hours. He had learned to fly and it was obvious that it wasn't natural to him. He flew safely, did what he had been tought and there is really no issue to it. It did, however, feel wrong. I did not feel safe.

On the other side, another military friend with about the same number of hours flies like it was built into him from day one. It feels natural, inspires confidence in the passengers and I, for one, feel very safe with him at the controls. Both guys had the same education, just a few years apart.

So, what is this? I don't know exactly what it is, but have a feeling that I am correct in stating that there are two kinds. Of course, it's not all black and white, but I still beleive that this is the way it is; two kinds with various gray ones in between.

I soloed at 11.5 hrs, but the thing that strikes me in hindsight is that because of limited funding, my 40 hrs to PPL were spread out over almost three years. I never had to back up one lesson to re-cap even once, probably because I "flew in my sleep". It was so much fun, and I had my aim set so high that my night-time reviews of flight manouvers kept me up to date.

So, low time solo guys and gals probably live on the natural side, while longer time to solo ones are slightly towards the other side.

Again, I'm not talking about safety in reality here; the military guy I am uncomfortable with is very safe, it just doesn't feel safe.

Comments from "real" pilots? I may be feeding some gasoline to a fire here, but I am firm in my beliefs until proven wrong

[rotorspeed]

Interesting looking back at old log books to check it out. First circuit solo at 13 hours, qualified after 38 hours, 5 weeks after starting. All on Enstrom. No previous flying before PPL(H).

[verticalhold]

perfrej;

You are right in most of what you say. My present boss has a couple of thousand less hours than me and less types flown. I just wish I had his smooth touch and awareness. So far I've built up 8000 + rotary hours and I regularly fly with more experienced guys who are agricultural in their handling and almost begginers where it is difficult to see where the man ends and the machine begins.

I went through my ab-initio course with very high flying grades and then found that I struggled like a drowning man during line training. A couple of very experienced trainers dragged me through the system and let me loose on the world when I had proved to them that I was worthy of their trust.

Time to solo is becoming irrelevant although I still feel that a student who hasn't soloed by 80-100 hours should be encouraged to take up golf.

[outofwhack]

Solo in 5 hours

I went solo in a Bell47 with 5.0 hours but I had an extraordinarily good instructor. I also had a PPL(A) licence with 600 hours but I think the biggest factor was that I had mastered flying radio-controlled model helicopters beforehand.

In my case going solo early did not affect how long it took to get to the required standard to acquire the licence. It still took the full mandated number of hours to get there. So, in my opinion, whether you get to solo early or late is not a significant factor.

OOW

[Flingwing207]

perfrej, I would say the idea of a "natural" helicopter pilot is a bit of an oxymoron.

However, I would say there's a big difference between a pilot who knows how a helicopter flies and one who knows how to operate a helicopter. If you can get someone to the point where they actually understand what's going on aerodynamically, physically, and mechanically around them as they operate the controls, you can teach them to be "natural".

I would place myself firmly in the camp of those who had to learn the theory and concept before I could fly "naturally", but once you learn what the machine and the air are telling you, it's as natural as riding a bike!

[Whirlybird]

I still think time to solo says more about the instructor than the student, ie do you want them just to be able to fly a circuit, or to be able to handle every conceivable emergency, or something in between?

[IFMU]

I soloed in 8 hours. I had a great instructor, I was motivated (I was paying for it), I was young, coordinated, and completely into aviation. I started with a ppl in fixed wing, taildragger, so I had a base set of skills to work with. I learned in an Enstrom F28A, which is a pretty safe and forgiving machine. Before I went solo, I shot straight in, 180, 360, low level, and run-on autos to a touchdown, so I can't agree with the argument that somebody who solos in 8 hours isn't capable of dealing with any emergencies. I did my first power recovery autos to prepare for my checkride. They were acutally a lot harder, I thought.

One of my co-workers soloed from scratch in 20 hours in the enstrom. I thought that was more impressive, considering he started with no concept of airspace, radio, traffic pattern, foot coordination, and so on. It took me 23 hours for my first solo in fixed wing.

-- IFMU

[clinique_happy]

Windspeed for first solo

Does anyone know what the legal wind speed has to be to fly first solo?

Does anyone know after how many hours the usual first solo occurs

[RPM AWARE]

Clinique...any particular reason you've posed you questions on Kyle2012's thread about something totally different ??

It's been a long time since I've been in that arena bit I suspect there's no actual 'law' about windspeed and first solos...more likely the school has their own rule

As far as how soon you solo..that's probably down to aptitude and school rules again..and I think you have to have passed the law test.....

Personally....I rolled up for my full time ppl(h) as a complete ab intio and was sent solo on the third day after completing 10 hours dual....

[Dennis Kenyon]

First Solo

For CH,

You won't find any 'published' wind speed limit in a PFM simply because if there's an accident at that figure, there's a legal exposure ... SO the manufacturer simply states that the helicopter ... "has been demonstrated in winds up to XXX knots." But that doesn't imply that any pilot can manage it.

As to solo time. As has been noted, that depends largely on the FI and any company rules. I've seen solos in five hours. Having said that, for a short time the Robinson factory did place a SFI limit of 20 hours on the R22. I think it was something less for fixed wing licence holders. That requirement seems to have been replaced by the factory approved safety course. Safe flying. Dennis K

[clinique_happy]

Rpm my thread was removed I wanted to start my own hence written on this thread

No, you started a vague thread which was referred to the Forum sticky: it had no reference to this question whatsoever. I have moved all relevant posts into this new thread.

Welcome to Rotorheads, but a common courtesy is not to hijack other people's threads, and also to check whether your topic has been discussed previously, before starting a new thread!

Senior Pilot


Thanks both for your response

I av done bout 15 hours completed exams got the medical etc
Instructor says she was thinking of sending me solo but then seems not to
Just conscious She's not being honest with me and don't want to waste my money!

I'm just so keen to progress and get on with it, but she always finds a reason not to even if she said ohhhh you didn't seem
To handle that do well. Please advise and reassure

[GoodGrief]

Solo in a 300 between 15 and 20 hours, in an R22 between 20 and 25, don't insist on it, if you do not meet the standards you keep going dual.
Max wind : 12KT, no gusts.

Hmmm.... 10 hours after 3 days, that's bo..ocks!

Letting someone lose after 5 hours is outright dangerous, whatever happened to emergency procedures training?
But then again, what do I know...

[alicopter]

Hi Clinique, not my business but you should trust your instructor one hundred per cent. My first solo was B16 hours (french ALAT on Alouette 2) and I thought that I was not up to it but my FI convinced me he knew better than me and it went fine. I was really scared and very nervous but did my best to put my newly aquired knowledge into practice and that was it... great day.
IMHO, patience and humility are important character traits... do not try to be more clever than your teacher, she will know when you are ready and in which conditions of wind and visi.... good luck for your career.

[fluffy5]

To send a student solo is up to the judgement of the instructor and the abilities of the student and (the students perceived abilities of themselves ).
When you are ready to go you will be sent, sometimes I would not send students almost until 30 hrs, where they have covered and demonstrated to a proficient level of all emergencies, and you would get some who talk to other people and say their friend went solo at 10 hrs, and my reply "they went at 10 and survived".
I suggest you sit down with your instructor and talk about what your expectations are, if you do not like it leave, I am sure you can find a more reckless instructor that will strap you in and send you off, and cross their fingers that you survive.

Fluffy

[rotorfan]

Flying isn't terribly difficult for most people when all is normal. It's the emergencies that will get you if you don't react quickly and properly. Perhaps you would have no trouble taking off, doing a circuit and landing. Maybe your instructor is concerned about your ability to handle an unexpected gust, or autorotate if the donk takes a break.

I recall flying a short cross-country with my instructor to an airport we didn't usually visit. Along the way, we had multiple simulated power failures. What I didn't realize was that he was assuring himself that I could enter auto and survive at the bottom (though the machine might not). As soon as we arrived at the other airport, he got out and sent me solo. By the way, this was in 2000, and I was training in the R22. In the US, you had to have 20 hours before solo. Part of the SFAR. I don't know if it is still that way.

You must understand that the instructor has to feel comfortable with letting you go on your own. If you cock it up, your instructor will probably be paid a visit by the authorities. (Perhaps your family's attorneys, too.)

[tu154]

It's all down to you not giving your instructor a reason to not send you solo. If the instructor is hesitating, they are just not quite confident that you won't get yourself in trouble and be able to recover. There must be no doubt!
There should be no hurry in this, remember you have never done this before, she has.

[RPM AWARE]

"Hmmm.... 10 hours after 3 days, that's bo..ocks"

I'm not a Billy Bullshiner mate...I speak the truth...how was I to know it might be deemed too soon...sorry if that makes you unhappy

[LOZZ]

I am currently in a similar position. PUT flying R22.

Today will be hour 40, and no doubt still no solo on account of conditions, quite likely to be gusty.

My instructors appear to have a number of rules, all of which I am very happy with:

1. Less than 10 knots wind inc gusts.
2. Demonstrate 3 good consecutive circuits.
3. Cant be a Sunday for noise abatement purposes and flying circuits.
4. Greater than 20 hours logged PUT.

Therefore on account of the day job means only Saturday is available.

Its was over 3 months ago that the CFI said we can start talking about you going solo. I have flown 1 hour per week since then but as we all know the weather has been cr*p.

I need to ask him whether the min 10 hours solo flying required for the rest of the PPL(H) also requires such conditions, as finishing my license could be a very long affair.

A point to make is that the airfield I train at is near the coast and when comparing to other more inland sites is often windier when comparing TAFs/METARs.

So add all this up in terms of odds for the right conditions at the right time and where I am right now is to be expected.

Going solo is not a big deal for me anymore since realising some people go solo just by doing a lift, hover and touch down exercise (to appreciate C of G changes); whereas I always had it in mind that it meant the aforementioned exercise and: safely completing an airfield circuit with competence in all emergency procedures.

If there were to be an accident and conditions were not appropriate for first solo flight, then my instructor at the time would be for the high jump and the owner of the aircraft would be out of pocket no doubt as insurance wouldnt cough up. Let alone what state I might be in. So not worth the candle pushing against these rules IMHO.

In the meantime I get on with my navex exercises which are a blast, and sometimes ask to spend an hour doing airfield exercises in gusty conditions to improve my handling near the ground. Most dangerous aspect with a heli I think.

At this rate I will be a PPL(H) with about 60hrs possibly more, I would rather that than be a PPL(H) with 45 hours.

I had been giving myself a real hard time recently, turning the whole situation on myself thinking somehow I wasnt making the grade (whatever that is subjectively) and found an old thread on PPRuNe about the frustration of wanting to go solo which helped immensely, some very wise words indeed.

Another thing that helped was that I asked my CFI point blank (having achieved 3 good circuits with him) whether, had the conditions not turned gusty on us half way through the exercise, he would have been happy to have me go solo. He said emphatically yes. That waylaid any concerns around making any "grade".

For all of that, when I have gone solo, even when I have my license, it wont make much difference. I will still be popping down every Saturday or Sunday flying for an hour or so, from time to time with an instructor to make sure I'm not forming bad habits as I start the real learning, which as everyone knows is what a PPL(H) enables. I hope to hour build and follow the commercial route, not so much to make a living as is doubtful at my age, but to raise my flying standard and keep the passion burning. So hours achieved whether within the PPL(H) course or hour building doesnt matter as all counts towards 155 hrs. Yes I know there is a financial aspect between the two, but seen in the overall scheme of things it doesn't add up to a hill of beans.

I hope you find something of value in this reply, I have to confess has done me some good composing it. Chin up.

Loz

Land away from the fish.

[Hughes500]

If it is any help ( I am examiner as well as instructor) none of my students will go solo until the following achieved
1. Spot turns done
2. Engine off landing to ground can be done with little instructor help
3. All emergency drills off pat
4. LTE in the hover shown with appropriate actions
5. 3 good circuits +/- 100 ft
6. As for the wind, find above 20 kts things are too exciting !!!

[Arrrj]

I think it was a) 18 knots max and b) 45 hours when I went solo. Cannot believe anyone would let a student go solo under 40 hours.

Arrrj

(PS - that was in AUS).