Seems a bit Stiff (no ex-military mounts)
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Seems a bit Stiff (no ex-military mounts)
CAA explains why firm's choppers remain grounded
07 April 2005
A Taranaki helicopter logging company has spent $7 million on 11 helicopters that it may not be able to use.
Civil Aviation Authority Director John Jones today briefed a parliamentary select committee on Heli-Logging Ltd's application for an exemption so it can use ex-military Westland Wessex helicopters from the United Kingdom in its Stratford based operation.
Mr Jones told the committee the model was not supported by the equivalent authority in the UK – it withdrew certification in the 1990s after serious accidents – which meant it did not qualify for normal New Zealand certification and an exemption would be required for the business to use it.
The CAA had concerns about using helicopters for a purpose they were not designed for.
"The military aircraft are designed for quite specific and different roles from civil and the design and maintenance of them is also different," Mr Jones told the committee.
"World-wide (there's) a very high accident rate for ex-military helicopters in civil operations and unfortunately in my view those accidents have resulted in a disproportionate number of fatalities."
In the United States in one 18 month period there were six logging accidents using ex-military helicopters – half those accidents were fatal taking nine lives.
In the UK a civilian model of the Wessex was involved in 27 accidents between 1976 and 1993.
And in New Zealand in 2001 Motueka pilot Peter McColl, 39, was killed when the adapted 1964 Westland Wessex helicopter he was using to recover logs near Motueka crashed.
Metro Logging Ltd, the Christchurch-based firm which owned the helicopter, was charged with running the operation in breach of the Civil Aviation Act and was fined $6000 on guilty pleas to 12 charges.
Other ex-military aircraft had been involved in several fatal accidents in New Zealand.
Mr Jones said another concern was that flight trials Heli-Logging did on the aircraft showed a 90 per cent reduction in the life of some components. Parts that would normally last 4000 hours only worked properly for 400 when the aircraft was used to carry logs.
After the briefing Mr Jones said the case was "unusual".
"Not many people would try use a special experimental category aircraft on commercial operations. It's not allowed under our laws at the moment," he said.
Mr Jones said most logging operators bought a normal certificated aircraft and do logging "and that's perfectly okay."
However Heli-Logging Ltd Managing Director Mark Ford did not see any reason against using the helicopters for logging.
"It's a very successful aircraft."
He said dealing with the CAA was like fighting a brick wall and there was "most definitely" personal animosity against him.
Other operators had told him CAA staff has said there was no chance the helicopters would be approved.
"I feel gutted," he said.
Mr Ford asked the High Court in December for an injunction to force Mr Jones to make a decision about his application but it was dismissed.
If the CAA refuse an exemption Mr Ford has vowed to keep fighting.
"We'll get there. We wouldn't have started it if we weren't confident."
At the moment Mr Ford has eight of the 40-year-old Wessex aircraft that cannot be used for anything but passenger work. Three are yet to be delivered from the UK. They were previously used by the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.
Mr Ford felt the process had taken far too long – he first applied for the exemption in January 2003 – but Mr Jones said considerable time and energy had gone into the case.
"We're doing everything we can. It takes a lot of time up to analyse this sort of stuff and we've got to be sure from a safety point of view that at the end of the day it's safe."
link
07 April 2005
A Taranaki helicopter logging company has spent $7 million on 11 helicopters that it may not be able to use.
Civil Aviation Authority Director John Jones today briefed a parliamentary select committee on Heli-Logging Ltd's application for an exemption so it can use ex-military Westland Wessex helicopters from the United Kingdom in its Stratford based operation.
Mr Jones told the committee the model was not supported by the equivalent authority in the UK – it withdrew certification in the 1990s after serious accidents – which meant it did not qualify for normal New Zealand certification and an exemption would be required for the business to use it.
The CAA had concerns about using helicopters for a purpose they were not designed for.
"The military aircraft are designed for quite specific and different roles from civil and the design and maintenance of them is also different," Mr Jones told the committee.
"World-wide (there's) a very high accident rate for ex-military helicopters in civil operations and unfortunately in my view those accidents have resulted in a disproportionate number of fatalities."
In the United States in one 18 month period there were six logging accidents using ex-military helicopters – half those accidents were fatal taking nine lives.
In the UK a civilian model of the Wessex was involved in 27 accidents between 1976 and 1993.
And in New Zealand in 2001 Motueka pilot Peter McColl, 39, was killed when the adapted 1964 Westland Wessex helicopter he was using to recover logs near Motueka crashed.
Metro Logging Ltd, the Christchurch-based firm which owned the helicopter, was charged with running the operation in breach of the Civil Aviation Act and was fined $6000 on guilty pleas to 12 charges.
Other ex-military aircraft had been involved in several fatal accidents in New Zealand.
Mr Jones said another concern was that flight trials Heli-Logging did on the aircraft showed a 90 per cent reduction in the life of some components. Parts that would normally last 4000 hours only worked properly for 400 when the aircraft was used to carry logs.
After the briefing Mr Jones said the case was "unusual".
"Not many people would try use a special experimental category aircraft on commercial operations. It's not allowed under our laws at the moment," he said.
Mr Jones said most logging operators bought a normal certificated aircraft and do logging "and that's perfectly okay."
However Heli-Logging Ltd Managing Director Mark Ford did not see any reason against using the helicopters for logging.
"It's a very successful aircraft."
He said dealing with the CAA was like fighting a brick wall and there was "most definitely" personal animosity against him.
Other operators had told him CAA staff has said there was no chance the helicopters would be approved.
"I feel gutted," he said.
Mr Ford asked the High Court in December for an injunction to force Mr Jones to make a decision about his application but it was dismissed.
If the CAA refuse an exemption Mr Ford has vowed to keep fighting.
"We'll get there. We wouldn't have started it if we weren't confident."
At the moment Mr Ford has eight of the 40-year-old Wessex aircraft that cannot be used for anything but passenger work. Three are yet to be delivered from the UK. They were previously used by the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force.
Mr Ford felt the process had taken far too long – he first applied for the exemption in January 2003 – but Mr Jones said considerable time and energy had gone into the case.
"We're doing everything we can. It takes a lot of time up to analyse this sort of stuff and we've got to be sure from a safety point of view that at the end of the day it's safe."
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At last some common sense prevails, these ex military machines were not designed for logging, and it is another case of an operator trying to do things on the cheap.
If they were serious about safety, they would look at commercial aircraft that perform that function day in day out.
Repetitive heavy lifting shortens the life of most dynamic components and in this case, the figures quoted dont surprise me. Why on earth anyone with common sense would use a Wessex for logging is beyond me
If they were serious about safety, they would look at commercial aircraft that perform that function day in day out.
Repetitive heavy lifting shortens the life of most dynamic components and in this case, the figures quoted dont surprise me. Why on earth anyone with common sense would use a Wessex for logging is beyond me
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I know nothing about logging with Helicopters, but what I do know is that wood is reasonably cheap to buy, now unless these logs are Teak, or Mahogany or some other such exotic woods how the hell do these guys make a profit!
PeterR-B
PeterR-B
vfrpilotpb
Some of the logging in New Zealandconsists of native NZ timbers, but also logging of pine trees in areas where vehicle access is impossible. This particular operator used to log with Westland Scouts would you believe, and had a few "incidents" with those (go figure). Generally not a well regarded person in New Zealand helicopter circles.
Some of the logging in New Zealandconsists of native NZ timbers, but also logging of pine trees in areas where vehicle access is impossible. This particular operator used to log with Westland Scouts would you believe, and had a few "incidents" with those (go figure). Generally not a well regarded person in New Zealand helicopter circles.
Ghengis...
He got away with logging with Scouts did he not? At least for a while.
Huey Logging can be done relatively safely now.....the learning curve has been done. A great many of the crashes noted above came at a time when the Huey's were first being put to that work...and things broke and helicopters crashed. As the weak links were identified and improved and as the really shoddy operators went out of business....the accident rate improved quite a bit. As any other business, if adquate resources are dedicated to keeping the engineering standard up to par....the Huey can be a decent logging aircraft. High elevation and/or high temps will defeat its lifting ability very quickly.
It does take a special kind of pilot for that kind of work...I am too old and mortal myself.
He got away with logging with Scouts did he not? At least for a while.
Huey Logging can be done relatively safely now.....the learning curve has been done. A great many of the crashes noted above came at a time when the Huey's were first being put to that work...and things broke and helicopters crashed. As the weak links were identified and improved and as the really shoddy operators went out of business....the accident rate improved quite a bit. As any other business, if adquate resources are dedicated to keeping the engineering standard up to par....the Huey can be a decent logging aircraft. High elevation and/or high temps will defeat its lifting ability very quickly.
It does take a special kind of pilot for that kind of work...I am too old and mortal myself.
logging
Be interested to know what helicopters are designed or certified to do logging..apart from the K-Max, and Skycrane..
Almost all mil. helicopters are designed to carry underslung loads, from guns ,vehicles, to feather-beds and ice-cream( for the US troops!).So , what is the big deal/problem ?
If , however, the operator/crew go outside the aircraft performance and handling limitations then that is another story,and that is the same whether it`s civil or ex-mil.......!!
Almost all mil. helicopters are designed to carry underslung loads, from guns ,vehicles, to feather-beds and ice-cream( for the US troops!).So , what is the big deal/problem ?
If , however, the operator/crew go outside the aircraft performance and handling limitations then that is another story,and that is the same whether it`s civil or ex-mil.......!!
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Sycamore,
plenty of helicopters can do logging, the problem with logging is that the helicopter performs repetitive cycles, 40 or so an hour, hour after hour after hour. This max power/min power cycle does reduce the life on components "on condition" over the years, manufacturers have developed specific inspections for high cycle helicopters, such as the S64, 214 B, 332L etc.
I cant imagine a Wessex has been re engineered for repetitive heavy lifting by Westland.
plenty of helicopters can do logging, the problem with logging is that the helicopter performs repetitive cycles, 40 or so an hour, hour after hour after hour. This max power/min power cycle does reduce the life on components "on condition" over the years, manufacturers have developed specific inspections for high cycle helicopters, such as the S64, 214 B, 332L etc.
I cant imagine a Wessex has been re engineered for repetitive heavy lifting by Westland.
Wood (!) have thought that Walter was ideal for logging, rugged and tested in all environments etc.
No one care to elaborate on the fact that the logging Wessex that crashed had been operating on one engine for quite some time!!
Was it the engineering, pilot or weather to blame? Seems crazy to suggest that the type of helicopter is not suitable as I would imagine there is very little that it hasn't lifted.
No one care to elaborate on the fact that the logging Wessex that crashed had been operating on one engine for quite some time!!
Was it the engineering, pilot or weather to blame? Seems crazy to suggest that the type of helicopter is not suitable as I would imagine there is very little that it hasn't lifted.
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It would appear that the suggestion was a little more serious than "the type of helicopter is not suitable (for logging)". As I read it the Director of Civil Aviation (NZ) is saying that the aircraft is not even suitable to hold a Type Certificate - "UK – it withdrew certification in the 1990s after serious accidents" - and should not therefore be flown as a commercial civilian helicopter.
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$7mil for 11 aircraft including, one would assume, a parts package , now there's a clue in itself.
I dont agree with Mr Jones that just because its an ex military Aircraft it automaticly fits into a dangerous catagory. Most heli designs have been with Military contracts in mind, the exception would be the AS350. However like anything we buy from aircraft to TV's there is always some better suited than others for a particular job. Some continue on to greater things ie .B206, Hughes/MD369 etc however we would maybe not include the Hiller in that group.
In the field for which an aircraft was designed it could be said they were relatively successful but change their role and it all becomes very different. Not too many were built with logging in mind and when used for such other criterier come into play. There is always an hour and or cycle penalty. This is where the dollars may not add up so shortcuts need to be made. Initial capital cost etc being the first.
I feel that it is time that the NZ CAA stood its ground and not allow itself to pushed by operators who feel they have a special case because they are'better' or they have gone out and spent their (banks) money on something that has not been properly researched. If these machines were a real good deal and suited for the logging job, I think that Ericson would have bid more for them. Let the buyer beware.
I dont agree with Mr Jones that just because its an ex military Aircraft it automaticly fits into a dangerous catagory. Most heli designs have been with Military contracts in mind, the exception would be the AS350. However like anything we buy from aircraft to TV's there is always some better suited than others for a particular job. Some continue on to greater things ie .B206, Hughes/MD369 etc however we would maybe not include the Hiller in that group.
In the field for which an aircraft was designed it could be said they were relatively successful but change their role and it all becomes very different. Not too many were built with logging in mind and when used for such other criterier come into play. There is always an hour and or cycle penalty. This is where the dollars may not add up so shortcuts need to be made. Initial capital cost etc being the first.
I feel that it is time that the NZ CAA stood its ground and not allow itself to pushed by operators who feel they have a special case because they are'better' or they have gone out and spent their (banks) money on something that has not been properly researched. If these machines were a real good deal and suited for the logging job, I think that Ericson would have bid more for them. Let the buyer beware.
Whilst not logging, IIRC the S58T and the Wessex twin have been very succesful at sling loading throughout the years. I recall that Bristow went very close to getting a contract for the Wessex 60 to be used to offload ships in Egypt, when the Suez Canal was closed in the mid/late 70's. Long lining out of the holds of the freighters at anchor, in ME temperatures, would have put a fair strain on the tranny, yet it wasn't deemed unusual or outlandish.
The inexplicable (or unexplained) civil losses in the late 70's/early 80's put the kibosh on the Wx60, yet the mil version soldiered on for years after that. As a lifter, the Wessex did very nicely, regardless of Mr Jones' opinion. Whilst his motive may (or may not) be ultimately correct, his reasoning leaves a lot to be desired if the CAA NZ is to maintain any form of credibility.
The inexplicable (or unexplained) civil losses in the late 70's/early 80's put the kibosh on the Wx60, yet the mil version soldiered on for years after that. As a lifter, the Wessex did very nicely, regardless of Mr Jones' opinion. Whilst his motive may (or may not) be ultimately correct, his reasoning leaves a lot to be desired if the CAA NZ is to maintain any form of credibility.
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When I was flying in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia in 1976, Carsons were using the S58T to long line nets of cement out from the ship's cargo hold as the docks had a waiting time of months. The pilots flew 4 hour shifts all day & night. The only accident I can remember was when a net was grossly overloaded and the pilot was a bit too slow to notice, the NR drooped, he wobbled a bit, hit the mast and sadly crashed back into the hold.
Otherwise the S58T did a great job as did the twin Wessex.
Otherwise the S58T did a great job as did the twin Wessex.
John,
Yep the 58T/Wessex is a good lifter, and yes it did soldier on in military service for quite a while. I also bet it did some lifting in the military, but no where near as much as this operator will be doing. When I was military working on the UH-1D/H, our fleet would average one or two underslung loads EACH per week. This logging operator is looking at 40 loads per hour for each machine that is flying. And that is only for the hours that manage to make it into the logbook, if you get my drift. I don't think Mr Jones is saying that the Wessex is a bad helicopter that had its civil cert removed, even though that might be implied, from what I would say is and edited interview. I think the main push behind what he is saying is that the machine is not really capable of sustained logging operations in the conditions that the operator wants to operate it.
When the Wessex crashed in the South Island whilst logging (with only one engine operative), CAA was hauled over the coals for not investigating allegations of scullduggery within this company. The pilots widow really went to town, as you would expect. So now, when CAA are confronted with an application for the same type of operation, from an operator who is "friendly" with the operator who operated the Wessex that crashed in dubious circumstances, and with parts sourced from that same person, what do you think they should do?? They have investigated for a long time, and I bet they don't want to be bitten again when another Wessex crashes. And don't say if it crashes, say when. Because it will happen. Logging operators in NZ cut corners. Like the 205 that spat a TT strap, in flight. Or the 205 that broke up in flight, or the 205 that was flying with a main rotor blade that had been hacked with machetes when it reached finite life, but was found flying in NZ after being repaired with body filler, or the blade on the other side of that same machine that was scrapped as finite life expired (I know cos I scrapped it!!). Those are only the ones that don't get hushed up within these little companies. The ****e that doesn't make the news would make you go pale. I think it's about time that CAA had a bit more bite than bark. Especially concerning this idiot
noooby
Yep the 58T/Wessex is a good lifter, and yes it did soldier on in military service for quite a while. I also bet it did some lifting in the military, but no where near as much as this operator will be doing. When I was military working on the UH-1D/H, our fleet would average one or two underslung loads EACH per week. This logging operator is looking at 40 loads per hour for each machine that is flying. And that is only for the hours that manage to make it into the logbook, if you get my drift. I don't think Mr Jones is saying that the Wessex is a bad helicopter that had its civil cert removed, even though that might be implied, from what I would say is and edited interview. I think the main push behind what he is saying is that the machine is not really capable of sustained logging operations in the conditions that the operator wants to operate it.
When the Wessex crashed in the South Island whilst logging (with only one engine operative), CAA was hauled over the coals for not investigating allegations of scullduggery within this company. The pilots widow really went to town, as you would expect. So now, when CAA are confronted with an application for the same type of operation, from an operator who is "friendly" with the operator who operated the Wessex that crashed in dubious circumstances, and with parts sourced from that same person, what do you think they should do?? They have investigated for a long time, and I bet they don't want to be bitten again when another Wessex crashes. And don't say if it crashes, say when. Because it will happen. Logging operators in NZ cut corners. Like the 205 that spat a TT strap, in flight. Or the 205 that broke up in flight, or the 205 that was flying with a main rotor blade that had been hacked with machetes when it reached finite life, but was found flying in NZ after being repaired with body filler, or the blade on the other side of that same machine that was scrapped as finite life expired (I know cos I scrapped it!!). Those are only the ones that don't get hushed up within these little companies. The ****e that doesn't make the news would make you go pale. I think it's about time that CAA had a bit more bite than bark. Especially concerning this idiot
noooby
