Airprox: Harrier vs. Air Ambulance (again!)
"Shairspace" yesterday. Very good presentations on the LL system and Airprox organisation and local ATC. There was no formal discussion period.
Excellent police ops presentation by a regular PPRUNER!
HEMS ops were not invited to present.
At the end I collared a senior MOD rep for £k50 x 14 (TCAS for the AA cabs). My rationale? The first hems/mil fatal would very likely seriously affect LL ops due back-lash from public, press and coroner, (total closure probably)
Anyway it's back to the collecting tin!
"Any spare change Gov?"
Excellent police ops presentation by a regular PPRUNER!
HEMS ops were not invited to present.
At the end I collared a senior MOD rep for £k50 x 14 (TCAS for the AA cabs). My rationale? The first hems/mil fatal would very likely seriously affect LL ops due back-lash from public, press and coroner, (total closure probably)
Anyway it's back to the collecting tin!
"Any spare change Gov?"
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 4th Mar 2005 at 08:15.
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All this discussion / argument about a base helipad is all very well but of course it's totally irrelevant once the heli is out on a shout at a field location.
Seems to me that TCAS for all AA helis and a bit more diligence on the mode 3/A plus C from the military chaps is probably the best way forward.
Quote: "(I would definitely have UHF if I was operating in the vicinity of a military airfield)." unquote.
Crab, By that same logic, it would as pertinent to ask that military aircraft tune to an appropriate VHF freq. in the low flying system. Most, if not all, modern military UHF sets contain a VHF facility, whilst the converse isn't true. Retrofitting a small helicopter with an additional UHF set isn't perhaps as straightforward as you seem to think it is, least of all because of the weight and space penalty.
You seem quite keen to belittle the charity Air Ambulance organisation. Do I sense that air ambulances might be seen as possible "competitors" for RAF SAR?
Seems to me that TCAS for all AA helis and a bit more diligence on the mode 3/A plus C from the military chaps is probably the best way forward.
Quote: "(I would definitely have UHF if I was operating in the vicinity of a military airfield)." unquote.
Crab, By that same logic, it would as pertinent to ask that military aircraft tune to an appropriate VHF freq. in the low flying system. Most, if not all, modern military UHF sets contain a VHF facility, whilst the converse isn't true. Retrofitting a small helicopter with an additional UHF set isn't perhaps as straightforward as you seem to think it is, least of all because of the weight and space penalty.
You seem quite keen to belittle the charity Air Ambulance organisation. Do I sense that air ambulances might be seen as possible "competitors" for RAF SAR?
Last edited by ShyTorque; 4th Mar 2005 at 14:11.
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Although it was quite a way back in this thread, I feel I must step in and defend the Aiprox Board. The comments stating that it is toothless and a waste of time are incorrect. It was pressure from the Airprox Board that got TCAS introduced in the first place and they continue to apply pressure for many other airspace users to adopt a CWS, Military and Gliders included.
The assumption that the board is RAF for the benefit of RAF is completely without foundation. The majority of the board is civilian not military.
The issues regarding low flying in the UK are bound to raise temperatures. We have very limited airspace in the UK and there is growing traffic from all areas. In addition to TCAS, we should also be looking at the mandatory carriage of SSR throughout the UK (Squeals of horror from the C172 owners) as TCAS is no good against non-squawkers and also better provision of Lower Airspace Radar Services (Who is going to pay for that?)
Have a safe weekend everyone.
The assumption that the board is RAF for the benefit of RAF is completely without foundation. The majority of the board is civilian not military.
The issues regarding low flying in the UK are bound to raise temperatures. We have very limited airspace in the UK and there is growing traffic from all areas. In addition to TCAS, we should also be looking at the mandatory carriage of SSR throughout the UK (Squeals of horror from the C172 owners) as TCAS is no good against non-squawkers and also better provision of Lower Airspace Radar Services (Who is going to pay for that?)
Have a safe weekend everyone.
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crab,
You are obviously a military pilot. Your possession of an ATPL(H) since 1991 is thus totally irrelevant to your experience of flying on civilian operations. I have held a degree in Marine Biology since 1965, but I know nothing about it, as I have never worked as a Marine Biologist, I've been too busy being a military, then a civil pilot.
You are obviously a military pilot. Your possession of an ATPL(H) since 1991 is thus totally irrelevant to your experience of flying on civilian operations. I have held a degree in Marine Biology since 1965, but I know nothing about it, as I have never worked as a Marine Biologist, I've been too busy being a military, then a civil pilot.
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Last call for Mr....
The assertion that the majority of the Airprox Board is civilian is numerically correct, at the last count of 23 attendees 11 were RAF.
In recent years numerous opportunities to make strong recommendations regarding the fitting of CWS to fast jets were sidestepped and lame excuses from MOD RAF about lack of space and cost were greeted with the famous Gallic shrug and the next item on the agenda.
It is understood that the Chairmanship of the Airprox Board has at last been wrested from the retired fast jet brigade, so perhaps now we shall see the excellent job that the Board does in other areas of aviation extended to this particular area of conflict.
The assertion that the majority of the Airprox Board is civilian is numerically correct, at the last count of 23 attendees 11 were RAF.
In recent years numerous opportunities to make strong recommendations regarding the fitting of CWS to fast jets were sidestepped and lame excuses from MOD RAF about lack of space and cost were greeted with the famous Gallic shrug and the next item on the agenda.
It is understood that the Chairmanship of the Airprox Board has at last been wrested from the retired fast jet brigade, so perhaps now we shall see the excellent job that the Board does in other areas of aviation extended to this particular area of conflict.
Just call me duty target...
Anjouan - I only mentioned the ATPLH to p*ss off SS and it worked. Just because I am a mil pilot doesn't mean I am ignorant of AA and police ops - quite the opposite, we work with them frequently in the SW. Also many of my ex colleagues from mil days (RAF and AAC) are current AA and police pilots.
ShyTorque - I do not belittle the valuable service AA give - I just question doing it on a shoestring, I think a national AA service that would benefit from economies of scale should be govt funded and properly equipped instead of the present charity based system. If FJ need to talk to a civvy field then I am sure they can dial up a VHF freq but be realistic about how often that is going to happen - even then it would be a major airfield as they are travelling too quickly to call every minor airfield and HLS - they just avoid protected airspace and crack on. I really don't believe FJ operate in the UKLFS without squawking 3A/C - if they don't cause a TCAS alert then there must be compatibilty issues.
Bertie - since you left there doesn't seem to be any money for anything in the military especially FS stuff so I'm not surprised that they didn't give you a cheque for the TCAS. You have no probs in your operating area because Mil ATC are used to running dual VHF/UHF frequencies unlike civvy airfields. Wattisham does the same with its Police helo while the rest of the Matz traffic operates on UHF.
Anjouan - I only mentioned the ATPLH to p*ss off SS and it worked. Just because I am a mil pilot doesn't mean I am ignorant of AA and police ops - quite the opposite, we work with them frequently in the SW. Also many of my ex colleagues from mil days (RAF and AAC) are current AA and police pilots.
ShyTorque - I do not belittle the valuable service AA give - I just question doing it on a shoestring, I think a national AA service that would benefit from economies of scale should be govt funded and properly equipped instead of the present charity based system. If FJ need to talk to a civvy field then I am sure they can dial up a VHF freq but be realistic about how often that is going to happen - even then it would be a major airfield as they are travelling too quickly to call every minor airfield and HLS - they just avoid protected airspace and crack on. I really don't believe FJ operate in the UKLFS without squawking 3A/C - if they don't cause a TCAS alert then there must be compatibilty issues.
Bertie - since you left there doesn't seem to be any money for anything in the military especially FS stuff so I'm not surprised that they didn't give you a cheque for the TCAS. You have no probs in your operating area because Mil ATC are used to running dual VHF/UHF frequencies unlike civvy airfields. Wattisham does the same with its Police helo while the rest of the Matz traffic operates on UHF.
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No it didn't. I am as qualified as you are crab in that department and dare I say it, more up to date. 
TTFN
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Crab,
Good to see you seemed to have wound it in a little.... appreciate that. Of course most of us are actually in agreement in most areas.
I agree about the non-compatibility / impracticability of disparate RT freqs, that's why I countered your statement that civvy air should listen on UHF.
The more of us (both sides of the barbed wire) that have TCAS the better and ALL aircraft interested in self preservation should have at least SSR with mode C and use it. With a FJ coming inbound at LL, the usual pilot lookout can be ineffective and both parties need all the help they can get.
BTW, I would estimate that about 40% of military traffic we encounter doesn't appear on the TCAS fitted to our aircraft. It isn't a type related thing, more random, so I can only assume it's because the IFF wasn't on at the time...
A subject in itself, but I couldn't agree more that the Air Ambulance and Police Air Support would be much better if a national organisation had been formed for each some years ago. Economy of scale, fewer aircraft types etc = a better deal for the public all round. The sad ethos in UK is to try to do everything piecemeal and on the cheap to the point where the whole thing becomes unworkable - military included these days (where ARE they spending our taxes?). The fact that AA has to rely on voluntary contributions from the public is a national disgrace.
Good to see you seemed to have wound it in a little.... appreciate that. Of course most of us are actually in agreement in most areas.
I agree about the non-compatibility / impracticability of disparate RT freqs, that's why I countered your statement that civvy air should listen on UHF.
The more of us (both sides of the barbed wire) that have TCAS the better and ALL aircraft interested in self preservation should have at least SSR with mode C and use it. With a FJ coming inbound at LL, the usual pilot lookout can be ineffective and both parties need all the help they can get.
BTW, I would estimate that about 40% of military traffic we encounter doesn't appear on the TCAS fitted to our aircraft. It isn't a type related thing, more random, so I can only assume it's because the IFF wasn't on at the time...
A subject in itself, but I couldn't agree more that the Air Ambulance and Police Air Support would be much better if a national organisation had been formed for each some years ago. Economy of scale, fewer aircraft types etc = a better deal for the public all round. The sad ethos in UK is to try to do everything piecemeal and on the cheap to the point where the whole thing becomes unworkable - military included these days (where ARE they spending our taxes?). The fact that AA has to rely on voluntary contributions from the public is a national disgrace.
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Hello again folks, couple of points - BAS moved to Staverton after AA was based at Strensham, some considerable expense was incurred at the base (hanger, offices etc) and also the political problem of the customer being co-located with the services provider (what happens if they lose the contract? more expense incurred to move out)
No performance advantage with airfield use, the EC135 can perform Helipad profile at MAUW
One last thing - Forget choke points, line features etc, if a FJ hits an AA in flight the FJ will have flown directly into an object in front of it. It is extremely unlikely that the reverse will be true.
And one further last point, when I fly I am working, possibly about to save someones life, you are just training, the moral onus is on you not to place me and my crew in danger.
Train somewhere else
No performance advantage with airfield use, the EC135 can perform Helipad profile at MAUW
One last thing - Forget choke points, line features etc, if a FJ hits an AA in flight the FJ will have flown directly into an object in front of it. It is extremely unlikely that the reverse will be true.
And one further last point, when I fly I am working, possibly about to save someones life, you are just training, the moral onus is on you not to place me and my crew in danger.
Train somewhere else
EC135 - a simplistic view to say the least - and other people said this wasn't an anti mil low flying thread! When I go flying I am usually in the process of saving someone's life (SAR) but I don't insist on having the whole airspace to myself.
On various Flight Safety courses I have seen videos of HUD tapes where a non-conflicting dot on the horizon becomes wall to wall Cessna/microlight/helicopter in under 2 seconds and only becomes an apparent threat in less than 1. So saying that the FJ will have just flown into something in front of it in the event of a mid air is rather fatuous. The fact that it doesn't happen on a regular basis is a testament to their training and their lookout.
Helicopters are easy to see when you are another helicopter (we managed at Boscastle with 7 and didn't bump into each other) but very difficult to spot from 250' at 420 kts, especially if it is moving slowly to or from the hover.
TCAS, bright colour scheme, one yellow rotor blade, white strobes and as many lights shining in as many directions as possible; have as many of these as possible if you want to protect yourself.
On various Flight Safety courses I have seen videos of HUD tapes where a non-conflicting dot on the horizon becomes wall to wall Cessna/microlight/helicopter in under 2 seconds and only becomes an apparent threat in less than 1. So saying that the FJ will have just flown into something in front of it in the event of a mid air is rather fatuous. The fact that it doesn't happen on a regular basis is a testament to their training and their lookout.
Helicopters are easy to see when you are another helicopter (we managed at Boscastle with 7 and didn't bump into each other) but very difficult to spot from 250' at 420 kts, especially if it is moving slowly to or from the hover.
TCAS, bright colour scheme, one yellow rotor blade, white strobes and as many lights shining in as many directions as possible; have as many of these as possible if you want to protect yourself.
Crab. Glad to see you list TCAS first in your list of protective measures. The others only make the helo stand out better to the FJ pilot. (and only visually, in that 2 second 'dot to splat' moment)
TCAS is the only measure, available at the moment, that will make the FJ stand out better to the helo pilot. ( and very often I have found, on police choppers, with up to 10-15 seconds warning)
So TCAS for HEMS please.
"Any spare change Gov(ernment)?"
TCAS is the only measure, available at the moment, that will make the FJ stand out better to the helo pilot. ( and very often I have found, on police choppers, with up to 10-15 seconds warning)
So TCAS for HEMS please.
"Any spare change Gov(ernment)?"
Bertie, glad to see you're working weekends as well as representing the AA during the week 
I hope they're paying you enough!! I don't know why Shy gets so many FJs that don't trigger the TCAS - use of a serviceable transponder is a requirement in the milAIP for operating in the UKLFS - if they are turning them off then they should be shopped as it is clearly a dangerous practice.
Shytorque - not so much wound in as not rising to SS's baiting - I wouldn't want to defeat an unarmed man in a battle of wits!
I hope they're paying you enough!! I don't know why Shy gets so many FJs that don't trigger the TCAS - use of a serviceable transponder is a requirement in the milAIP for operating in the UKLFS - if they are turning them off then they should be shopped as it is clearly a dangerous practice.Shytorque - not so much wound in as not rising to SS's baiting - I wouldn't want to defeat an unarmed man in a battle of wits!
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crab@,
Not only, as you say, the "use of a serviceable transponder is a requirement in the milAIP for operating in the UKLFS", I am led to believe that;
"Use of a serviceable transponder is now MANDATORY for military flights within the United Kingdom Low Flying System (UKLFS)"
If TCAS is not alerting these FJs coming 'your way', then something must be done to investigate why not.
If an AirProx is put in by a TCAS equipped a/c and no warning was given, then the board MUST surely be investigating why.
Just off to sort out my arsenal of wits!
SS
Not only, as you say, the "use of a serviceable transponder is a requirement in the milAIP for operating in the UKLFS", I am led to believe that;
"Use of a serviceable transponder is now MANDATORY for military flights within the United Kingdom Low Flying System (UKLFS)"
If TCAS is not alerting these FJs coming 'your way', then something must be done to investigate why not.
If an AirProx is put in by a TCAS equipped a/c and no warning was given, then the board MUST surely be investigating why.
Just off to sort out my arsenal of wits!
SS
We did a 3 year review of close proximity activities for BHAB ( 2000-2003) so that they could remind the DOT and the MOD what the state of play was. It concerned emergency services helicopter operations Vs puddle jumpers and military FW and RW activities.
Observations:
Most HEMS outfits failed to submit sufficient data.
Most police units relied heavily on TCAS
The MOD made the right noises but couldn't convert words to action (citing IRAQ on both occasions as an excuse for no cash).
Ironically, I have a letter here from Portillo when he was defence secretary (in early 90's) defending his position which was that there wasn't enough of a threat to take precautionary action.
AIRPROX and its machinery is a joke . A toothless waste of government money. I have lost count of how many people have filed for near misses only to be issued with the standard response letter stating that it has been looked into and the incident has been declared category C (no risk of collision).
We recently, nearly collided with a pair of jaguars which were flying at 420 kts at 250' in below minimum weather limits (4km)and they admitted it - no risk of collision?????
As I said some time back, On average there is a mid air between mil and civvy every 6 years. We are a year overdue
Cat A takeoffs.
Crab - normally you come out with some sterling stuff. But this time you really are talking bollocks mate.
You might have an ATPL(H) but you've never practiced it in anger so you haven't a clue what you're on about. The mil take off going fwd. If something happens (not necessarily the donk stopping) then a mil pilot is committed to landing into unknown territory AND at relatively high fwd speed.
Commercial helos transition backwards, because its been proven that the landing spot is (a) safe (you've just taken off from it) and (b) there is little or no run on speed. Guess which is safer. The CAA care about passengers, the Mil don't.
Don't slag off civvy performance profiles unless you understand them. Now get back to talking sense
And the threat of being taken out from behind whilst transitioning, by a FJ is ludicrous. Do you know of any FJ's at 300+ knots transitting at <120' ???
Observations:
Most HEMS outfits failed to submit sufficient data.
Most police units relied heavily on TCAS
The MOD made the right noises but couldn't convert words to action (citing IRAQ on both occasions as an excuse for no cash).
Ironically, I have a letter here from Portillo when he was defence secretary (in early 90's) defending his position which was that there wasn't enough of a threat to take precautionary action.
AIRPROX and its machinery is a joke . A toothless waste of government money. I have lost count of how many people have filed for near misses only to be issued with the standard response letter stating that it has been looked into and the incident has been declared category C (no risk of collision).
We recently, nearly collided with a pair of jaguars which were flying at 420 kts at 250' in below minimum weather limits (4km)and they admitted it - no risk of collision?????
As I said some time back, On average there is a mid air between mil and civvy every 6 years. We are a year overdue
Cat A takeoffs.
Crab - normally you come out with some sterling stuff. But this time you really are talking bollocks mate.
You might have an ATPL(H) but you've never practiced it in anger so you haven't a clue what you're on about. The mil take off going fwd. If something happens (not necessarily the donk stopping) then a mil pilot is committed to landing into unknown territory AND at relatively high fwd speed.
Commercial helos transition backwards, because its been proven that the landing spot is (a) safe (you've just taken off from it) and (b) there is little or no run on speed. Guess which is safer. The CAA care about passengers, the Mil don't.
Don't slag off civvy performance profiles unless you understand them. Now get back to talking sense
And the threat of being taken out from behind whilst transitioning, by a FJ is ludicrous. Do you know of any FJ's at 300+ knots transitting at <120' ???
Now this has gone far enough....
I know you Brits can complicate anything beyond belief....but listen to what you are saying here. We are down to the point that in the middle of a takeoff from a helipad....you expect the guy to check his TCAS to see if he is going to get whacked by some nimrod (person not aircraft) zipping along at nought feet and 400 Kts?
Somewhere around page two this thread has become silly.
Plot the base on the map....notify the uniformed mafia of the location by letter, e-mail, phone call, or personal visit. The umaf then does it thing to make sure the boys and gals in blue give that location some room.....
Run your strobes....do a clearing turn before takeoff....for what good that does with some pointy headed rascal getting his jolly by hugging the trees in violation of policy....and make your takeoff. Fer Chrissakes guys....this is not all that complicated.
Talking about profiles...TCAS...who has an ATPL ....who doesn't. It sounds like the MOD has too much money for internet access and the civvies have a case of envy.
It is a very small country but the sky there is still pretty big yet. Big sky...small aircraft.....maybe the odds are not as bad as one thinks. Still the odds of one mid-air between civvy aircraft and a military aircraft.....once every six years....sounds a bit much to me. Must be we have a lot more sky here.
Lord knows....I had the pants scared off me numerous times around the Isle of Skye...Rassay Sound area and the glens on the way back to Inverness by Jags...Buccs...and Phantoms in the late 70's but you learn to live with it.
I know you Brits can complicate anything beyond belief....but listen to what you are saying here. We are down to the point that in the middle of a takeoff from a helipad....you expect the guy to check his TCAS to see if he is going to get whacked by some nimrod (person not aircraft) zipping along at nought feet and 400 Kts?
Somewhere around page two this thread has become silly.
Plot the base on the map....notify the uniformed mafia of the location by letter, e-mail, phone call, or personal visit. The umaf then does it thing to make sure the boys and gals in blue give that location some room.....
Run your strobes....do a clearing turn before takeoff....for what good that does with some pointy headed rascal getting his jolly by hugging the trees in violation of policy....and make your takeoff. Fer Chrissakes guys....this is not all that complicated.
Talking about profiles...TCAS...who has an ATPL ....who doesn't. It sounds like the MOD has too much money for internet access and the civvies have a case of envy.
It is a very small country but the sky there is still pretty big yet. Big sky...small aircraft.....maybe the odds are not as bad as one thinks. Still the odds of one mid-air between civvy aircraft and a military aircraft.....once every six years....sounds a bit much to me. Must be we have a lot more sky here.
Lord knows....I had the pants scared off me numerous times around the Isle of Skye...Rassay Sound area and the glens on the way back to Inverness by Jags...Buccs...and Phantoms in the late 70's but you learn to live with it.
Sasless; we have learnt to live with it over here; once every 6 years!
We would like the average to get very much longer.
As you probably know there are two main types of civil parapublic helo ops in the UK; police (funded by taxpayer) and HEMS(funded by charity).
Several years ago the police operators were offered TCAS funding by the government after a very close call, Police AS355 (v) Tucano (The aircraft actually touched.)
HEMS Charities were not offered any aid.
Quite a few of the pilots here alternate in police/hems duties. We experience the value of TCAS in FJ awareness in the police role and would dearly appreciate its help during HEMS work.
I am not talking base work but field work under the main LL transit routes.
We would like the average to get very much longer.
As you probably know there are two main types of civil parapublic helo ops in the UK; police (funded by taxpayer) and HEMS(funded by charity).
Several years ago the police operators were offered TCAS funding by the government after a very close call, Police AS355 (v) Tucano (The aircraft actually touched.)
HEMS Charities were not offered any aid.
Quite a few of the pilots here alternate in police/hems duties. We experience the value of TCAS in FJ awareness in the police role and would dearly appreciate its help during HEMS work.
I am not talking base work but field work under the main LL transit routes.
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 5th Mar 2005 at 17:53.
TC - I am fully aware of the pros and cons of Cat A departures and I understand why they are used for public transport ops - my concern on this topic was that flying those profiles was putting the aircraft at more risk from a mid air than from an unlikely engine failure (and it was HEMS operators who voiced this concern first not me). I agree that at 100 to 150' you should not encounter a fast mover but I have seen them below that as, I am sure, have you. I suggested lookout turns and curving departures but was promptly rubbished by the 'we must fly Cat A with no deviations' brigade.
As it happens I frequently depart HLS and field sites using a towering take-off technique to give my self a vertical reject option should a donk stop - I don't need to see the landing area to go straight back down onto it - but I lookout before I transition and start to turn (and look) as soon as I am safe single.
I understand (from personal experience) how shocking it can be to have a FJ whizz past you when you weren't expecting it and the natural assumption is that he didn't see you. The fact is that most of the time they did and that is why there aren't more mid-airs. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying a miss is a miss is a miss but what seems adequate avoidance margin to a FJ mate might not seem 'safe' or adequate when you are on the receiving end.
As it happens I frequently depart HLS and field sites using a towering take-off technique to give my self a vertical reject option should a donk stop - I don't need to see the landing area to go straight back down onto it - but I lookout before I transition and start to turn (and look) as soon as I am safe single.
I understand (from personal experience) how shocking it can be to have a FJ whizz past you when you weren't expecting it and the natural assumption is that he didn't see you. The fact is that most of the time they did and that is why there aren't more mid-airs. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying a miss is a miss is a miss but what seems adequate avoidance margin to a FJ mate might not seem 'safe' or adequate when you are on the receiving end.
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Crab
As someone who has been on both sides of the fence, I admire your defence of the UK LFS. However, have you ever called West Drayton to register a CANP? No, you have RCC to do that. If you did you would find out what a cake and a..e party it is. Generally in this situation you, alone, are dealing with aircraft logistics, engineering, passengers, freight and where you will sleep tonight on your own - not at all like having an ops clerk and six engineers pandering to your needs.
I use the CANP system when I can as it is the only means of defence when USLing. These ops are very intensive as you know and trying to keep an eye on a load in a mirror, the aircraft performance, ground handlers etc, etc doesn't leave much time for avoiding FJs. I have now lost count of the number of times that these CANPs have been infringed, I have even been "wazzed" at low level when I was talking to the same mil radar unit as the FJ (subsequent investigation showed he had come for a closer inspection little knowing I had 50' of wire strop beneath the aircraft). They have even been infringed by mil helos - heaven forbid. None of us are perfect (apart from A2 QHIs) and plans often change without much notice but when the next FJ/rotary midair happens as it surely will who will be to blame? I doubt very much if it will be the helo operator.
There needs to be a place for the FJs to operate at LL. I know that it is very controlled at the moment from an admin point of view and when the accident occurs the MOD will have all the paperwork to show exactly how it happened but once let loose in LFA ? are the pointy ones really doing their best to avoid us? We crop up in the most unusual places you know, a lot of the time even a SAR God would be suprised to see us
As someone who has been on both sides of the fence, I admire your defence of the UK LFS. However, have you ever called West Drayton to register a CANP? No, you have RCC to do that. If you did you would find out what a cake and a..e party it is. Generally in this situation you, alone, are dealing with aircraft logistics, engineering, passengers, freight and where you will sleep tonight on your own - not at all like having an ops clerk and six engineers pandering to your needs.
I use the CANP system when I can as it is the only means of defence when USLing. These ops are very intensive as you know and trying to keep an eye on a load in a mirror, the aircraft performance, ground handlers etc, etc doesn't leave much time for avoiding FJs. I have now lost count of the number of times that these CANPs have been infringed, I have even been "wazzed" at low level when I was talking to the same mil radar unit as the FJ (subsequent investigation showed he had come for a closer inspection little knowing I had 50' of wire strop beneath the aircraft). They have even been infringed by mil helos - heaven forbid. None of us are perfect (apart from A2 QHIs) and plans often change without much notice but when the next FJ/rotary midair happens as it surely will who will be to blame? I doubt very much if it will be the helo operator.
There needs to be a place for the FJs to operate at LL. I know that it is very controlled at the moment from an admin point of view and when the accident occurs the MOD will have all the paperwork to show exactly how it happened but once let loose in LFA ? are the pointy ones really doing their best to avoid us? We crop up in the most unusual places you know, a lot of the time even a SAR God would be suprised to see us
