What flying schools don't teach you...
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What flying schools don't teach you...
I was sitting down one day after talking to a couple of fairly newly qualified Commercial pilots and began to think about what proffessional pilots schools actually don't teach you that you really need i.e
1/ How to fly pipeline
2/ How to fly pleasure flights
3/ How to take fairly important pax to large airports without making a tit of yourself
4/ Cargo flights
5/ Parachute dropping
to name but a few general things that you probably will come up against unless you have loads of money and get an ATPLH/IR Multi and go straight to the north sea.
I would have thought that these would be basics to learn. saferty is a main concern and rightly so but basic commercial flying skills tend to be left to the first prospective employer.
Any thoughts?
1/ How to fly pipeline
2/ How to fly pleasure flights
3/ How to take fairly important pax to large airports without making a tit of yourself
4/ Cargo flights
5/ Parachute dropping
to name but a few general things that you probably will come up against unless you have loads of money and get an ATPLH/IR Multi and go straight to the north sea.
I would have thought that these would be basics to learn. saferty is a main concern and rightly so but basic commercial flying skills tend to be left to the first prospective employer.
Any thoughts?
It is because there is a difference between basic training and operational training.
If one takes ICAO an an example, Annex 1 deals with basic training and Annex 6 deals with operational. This translated into State regulations leads to the parsing of the two tasks and, for Europe, is the difference between JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS 3 Subpart N. If it were any other way, basic training would take forever and cost a fortune.
Another consideration is operational recency; some skills - long line, SAR, HEMS - have a limited currency.
Jim
If one takes ICAO an an example, Annex 1 deals with basic training and Annex 6 deals with operational. This translated into State regulations leads to the parsing of the two tasks and, for Europe, is the difference between JAR-FCL and JAR-OPS 3 Subpart N. If it were any other way, basic training would take forever and cost a fortune.
Another consideration is operational recency; some skills - long line, SAR, HEMS - have a limited currency.
Jim
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Looking back at my initial commercial training, I think the astonishing omissions were more in the ground school. We did lots of completely pointless and useless stuff for hele pilots: the design of engne air intakes for supersonic flight (!) , how to flight plan a transatlantic flight at FL nose-bleed, but there was absolutely no mention of helicopter performance categories.
As JL says, I would not expect to do operatiional famil & training as part of basic training.
On the other hand, I remember when I did my FI rating, it struck me as very strange that there was no mention of how to do a trial lesson and the hazards associated with that mad person in the right hand seat - probably one of the most risky air exercises in the syllabus, in my view. Of course, most new FIs do little other than trial lessons initially, unless they are very lucky.
As JL says, I would not expect to do operatiional famil & training as part of basic training.
On the other hand, I remember when I did my FI rating, it struck me as very strange that there was no mention of how to do a trial lesson and the hazards associated with that mad person in the right hand seat - probably one of the most risky air exercises in the syllabus, in my view. Of course, most new FIs do little other than trial lessons initially, unless they are very lucky.
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Here in Australia, each school has the Department syllabus to operate from, but it depends on what the operator adds to the Operations Manual in addition to the minimum requirment that may make all the difference.
Most schools conduct ongoing training such as aerial photography training and sling endorsements as part of a Commercial licence syllabus. Power line survey introduction also helps with the students basic training standard, but most other ongoing training is best left till after the completion of the licence. After all, a person can only be so preprered after around 125 hours.
If the school has it's smarts, then they will inform the prospective student of all the training that they shall recieve at that particular training organisaton, as most people that inquire to fly generally contact several schools prior to their decision as this gives them a idea of what they are going to recieve. The game is competitive in training so the one's with the better offerings will get to eat tonight.
There is a lot for a raw student to learn in a short number of hours, so content in the correct order will make a better prepared Commercial pilot.
The cheaper deal may not necessarily be the better deal in the long run...... but in the civil world the bank is generally a touch smaller!
Safe Flying,
FF.
Most schools conduct ongoing training such as aerial photography training and sling endorsements as part of a Commercial licence syllabus. Power line survey introduction also helps with the students basic training standard, but most other ongoing training is best left till after the completion of the licence. After all, a person can only be so preprered after around 125 hours.
If the school has it's smarts, then they will inform the prospective student of all the training that they shall recieve at that particular training organisaton, as most people that inquire to fly generally contact several schools prior to their decision as this gives them a idea of what they are going to recieve. The game is competitive in training so the one's with the better offerings will get to eat tonight.
There is a lot for a raw student to learn in a short number of hours, so content in the correct order will make a better prepared Commercial pilot.
The cheaper deal may not necessarily be the better deal in the long run...... but in the civil world the bank is generally a touch smaller!
Safe Flying,
FF.
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The ability to fly the machine and do the prescribed commercial/ATP maneuvers is what allows you to get your pilot's certificate. The ability to do some more complex job with the machine is into the gray area of operational training, and is much less legal, and much harder to regulate (if it needs regulation at all).
How do you teach torpedo dropping? Crop spraying? Test flying new blades? Landing on a white snow-covered glacier?
The list of things you do with helos will always be longer than the list of flight school lesson plans, because what we do is by definition different, and innovative.
Regulators who want to latch onto this new rich area of rules-waiting-to-be written just might just spend a bit more time making the right instrument approaches and routes for helicopters. I think this black hole of regulatory concern has been gaping for a few decades, and has been waiting for those helpful rule makers to jump in.
How do you teach torpedo dropping? Crop spraying? Test flying new blades? Landing on a white snow-covered glacier?
The list of things you do with helos will always be longer than the list of flight school lesson plans, because what we do is by definition different, and innovative.
Regulators who want to latch onto this new rich area of rules-waiting-to-be written just might just spend a bit more time making the right instrument approaches and routes for helicopters. I think this black hole of regulatory concern has been gaping for a few decades, and has been waiting for those helpful rule makers to jump in.
I lucky did my training(practical) with an flightshcool who is also commercial operator, and got the change to do some work with them both flying but mostly as ground crew and it was the best shcool ever, but thats not the case in theory terms.
Since there is no JAA ATPL helicopter course ongoing you have to go on a fixed wing course and then convert over to rotary by taking one single bridge exam, wich is very exciting to do after you have done 14 of them mostly about trans Alantic plannig at +30000feet,supersonic flying,jetstreams,pressurisation
and lots of other useful stuff to becoming a helicopter pilot.
So it not like they are not teaching it, just not the things you need to know but everything else.
Like I have said before the JAA syllabus is 20% NEEDTOKNOW, 40% NICETOKNOW and 40%TOTALBUL****T
But there are guys like Shawn Coyle that wrote this brilliant book so we the beginners could get some knowledge on helicopters in theory. Thanks Shawn.
Since there is no JAA ATPL helicopter course ongoing you have to go on a fixed wing course and then convert over to rotary by taking one single bridge exam, wich is very exciting to do after you have done 14 of them mostly about trans Alantic plannig at +30000feet,supersonic flying,jetstreams,pressurisation
and lots of other useful stuff to becoming a helicopter pilot. So it not like they are not teaching it, just not the things you need to know but everything else.
Like I have said before the JAA syllabus is 20% NEEDTOKNOW, 40% NICETOKNOW and 40%TOTALBUL****T
But there are guys like Shawn Coyle that wrote this brilliant book so we the beginners could get some knowledge on helicopters in theory. Thanks Shawn.
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Alternatively, you could download LASORS for free from here:
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
http://www.caa.co.uk/application.asp...detail&id=1591
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I suspect one of the reasons, if not the primary reason, none of this is taught is because the instructors don't know it. Brand new CFIs are mostly clueless about this stuff, and unless they know it, they can't teach it. The blind are generally being led by the blind.
Another reason is that it is impossible to teach everything, because no one knows everything. The pilot will be taught what he needs to know for the job, if the company's training department (which may consist of only the owner) is any good at all. One of the largest helicopter segments is offshore support, and you won't find that taught in any school other than the training departments on the Gulf coast of the US, or comparable departments in other countries. It's just not feasible to teach that stuff - how to find a platform a hundred miles offshore, with no navigation equipment other than a compass and a watch. Today there is GPS, but it can fail. I flew offshore in 206s for years with no GPS, no LORAN, just my watch, a mag compass, and a map which didn't help a whole lot. You learn on the job, not in school, and that isn't likely to change.
Another reason is that it is impossible to teach everything, because no one knows everything. The pilot will be taught what he needs to know for the job, if the company's training department (which may consist of only the owner) is any good at all. One of the largest helicopter segments is offshore support, and you won't find that taught in any school other than the training departments on the Gulf coast of the US, or comparable departments in other countries. It's just not feasible to teach that stuff - how to find a platform a hundred miles offshore, with no navigation equipment other than a compass and a watch. Today there is GPS, but it can fail. I flew offshore in 206s for years with no GPS, no LORAN, just my watch, a mag compass, and a map which didn't help a whole lot. You learn on the job, not in school, and that isn't likely to change.
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I suspect one of the reasons, if not the primary reason, none of this is taught is because the instructors don't know it. Brand new CFIs are mostly clueless about this stuff, and unless they know it, they can't teach it. The blind are generally being led by the blind.
Another reason is that it is impossible to teach everything, because no one knows everything. The pilot will be taught what he needs to know for the job.
Another reason is that it is impossible to teach everything, because no one knows everything. The pilot will be taught what he needs to know for the job.
The guy I turn loose on the world with a commercial-helicopter rating will have zero experience finding an oil rig with a watch and a compass, but he will have training and experience in dead reckoning. He won't have made a 0/0 whiteout landing on a 10,000' pinnacle, but he will know how to make a steep approach to the ground, and when to do it. About the only real "job" training they get from me is at the CFI level, because that is the job they will have for the next year or two (or three). Why train somebody to hover next to a power line when they may well never do it?
My students will (most likely) never have started a turbine helicopter - there's a good chance they have never been in a turbine helicopter. They also will not be in a turbine for the next 800 hours.
If operators were having problems with us "blind" pilots, they'd do something about it. However, I've had some interesting chats with a few operators, and for most "entry level" jobs, they actually prefer the CFII who's been going around the pattern and teaching students to fly XC and the bazillionth GPS-A approach. Why? Because these folks usually have the basic skills very well honed, but have no prior habits/training/whatever to inhibit the training they need to do the job for which they are being hired.
In an ideal world, major operators would have their own academies to assure a pipeline of pilots trained to the specific needs of that job. The IPs would be experienced pilots rotated out of operational positions to teach one or two "classes" of new pilots, and they would maintain their level of pay while doing so. The new pilots would fly SIC for a few hundred hours, the PIC in less-demanding missions, then finally PIC wherever they were needed. Oh wait - I just invented military aviation! Of course even a pilot trained in such an environment will have difficulty in jobs outside his/her training. Putting someone who is used to flying an UH-60 into an AS350B full of tourists at 11,500'DA is no less challenging than putting someone in who has done 1,792 power-recovery autos in an R22.
I suggest that before you try to pin blame on the CFIs who are working hard to produce the best pilots we're allowed to (given the business models in place), that you look to the folks who created these business models. Those folks are your employers, gang - the PHI's and ERA's and Air Methods and so on. They don't always do what's best for aviation, pilots, or safety, until it affects the bottom line. You may see a valid need to change the system, now all you have to do is convince them. Meanwhile, I'll keep turning out the best "raw material" possible, because that's my job.
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Don't get me wrong. Perhaps I didn't word that post as well as I could have. I'm not blaming CFIs for not teaching this stuff, I'm saying it's not their job, and they couldn't even if it were. There are just too many diverse jobs out there for anyone to teach all of it, and nobody, and I mean nobody, knows all of it. The expense would be far beyond what anyone could afford even if someone tried. I agree with you that all a commercial course can, or should, teach is the basics. Job-specific skills are learned on the job, as needed. In an ideal world, all CFIs would be highly experienced, with many thousands of hours, but that isn't the way it works. The industry is the way it is, and won't change soon. I don't blame CFIs for this, I blame the people with money.
If the pilot can't pick up the required skills quickly, then he won't last long. Flying helicopters commercially requires intelligence, judgement, and adaptability, and not everyone with the money to pay for a license will have all those in the required proportions and amounts, just as not everyone who goes to work as a car salesman will be able to be successful at it. The school can only take the money and turn out a pilot who can perform to the minimum required levels, and then the pilot has to learn as he goes.
If the pilot can't pick up the required skills quickly, then he won't last long. Flying helicopters commercially requires intelligence, judgement, and adaptability, and not everyone with the money to pay for a license will have all those in the required proportions and amounts, just as not everyone who goes to work as a car salesman will be able to be successful at it. The school can only take the money and turn out a pilot who can perform to the minimum required levels, and then the pilot has to learn as he goes.
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Good Question!
Now I'm going to beat my favourite drum in response.
The number one killer of helicopter pilots is power lines.
The amount of training new helicopter pilots get in managing powerlines is almost zip.
First, I was a helicopter mustering pilot. Did a year of that in the early eighties then did a fixed-wing ag rating. The amount of instruction I received in finding then avoiding powerlines showed me just how deficient my helicopter training was.
Why? Most Helicopter pilots spend their working lives in the same environment.
Think about it. Spending 50 hours teaching new pilot's to navigate has cut the death-rate from getting lost to almost nothing. Lets do the same for wire-strikes.
Now I'm going to beat my favourite drum in response.
The number one killer of helicopter pilots is power lines.
The amount of training new helicopter pilots get in managing powerlines is almost zip.
First, I was a helicopter mustering pilot. Did a year of that in the early eighties then did a fixed-wing ag rating. The amount of instruction I received in finding then avoiding powerlines showed me just how deficient my helicopter training was.
Why? Most Helicopter pilots spend their working lives in the same environment.
Think about it. Spending 50 hours teaching new pilot's to navigate has cut the death-rate from getting lost to almost nothing. Lets do the same for wire-strikes.
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Let us not forget who we are dealing with here, humans!
We only have the capability to learn at a certain rate, so with only one hundred and something hours under our belt when we get a commercial licence, there is one hell of a lot of learning to be completed with on the job training (provided that we can get a job).....as already stated in this arena.
This also is the fact for a new instructor with a limited amount of instructional hours. A low houred instructor has to be able to teach the "basics" to a student, while all the time he\she is honing his\her skills at the same time. After a few hundred hours in the seat with a student, the instructor generally has a totally different approach to their own instructional skills and technique.
With my enquiries into training, some countries of the world have a varied approach to the syllabus of training to other countries, but the end result arrives at basicly the same mark.
One only hopes that if that elusive job comes along, that the pilot flys to their capability and not to the companies capability until they have the skills to do so!
FF
We only have the capability to learn at a certain rate, so with only one hundred and something hours under our belt when we get a commercial licence, there is one hell of a lot of learning to be completed with on the job training (provided that we can get a job).....as already stated in this arena.
This also is the fact for a new instructor with a limited amount of instructional hours. A low houred instructor has to be able to teach the "basics" to a student, while all the time he\she is honing his\her skills at the same time. After a few hundred hours in the seat with a student, the instructor generally has a totally different approach to their own instructional skills and technique.
With my enquiries into training, some countries of the world have a varied approach to the syllabus of training to other countries, but the end result arrives at basicly the same mark.
One only hopes that if that elusive job comes along, that the pilot flys to their capability and not to the companies capability until they have the skills to do so!
FF
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lowlevldevl
Would love to teach more about detecting and avoiding wires..
You say that the fixed wing training was 10 times better than the helicopter training. Where can we get this information from so that we can apply it to the helicopter world???
The most difficult thing to teach students is SA and ADM. If anyone has unusual ideas as to how to go about it then please let me know.
What is sad is when bad decision making kills pilots. It happens time and again to supposedly sensible people.
The best thing we can teach students is when to say NO. When to admit that the are scared of flying in weather that is life threatening. When to admit that they do not have the training to do the job and to demand that training. Just because we are doing a job that we love it doesn't mean that we should sacrifice our lives for it.
Scud running in a single engine at 200ft agl over the ocean with no rad-alt fits into this category... Nobody should be agreeing to do this.... It does make it cheap for the operator/ customer though... When this is perceived as normal by those entering the industry we have a big, big problem ahead of us to make this a safe industry.
SA and ADM is the most important thing we can attempt to teach. I just wish it wasn't so damn difficult!!!
Would love to teach more about detecting and avoiding wires..
You say that the fixed wing training was 10 times better than the helicopter training. Where can we get this information from so that we can apply it to the helicopter world???
The most difficult thing to teach students is SA and ADM. If anyone has unusual ideas as to how to go about it then please let me know.
What is sad is when bad decision making kills pilots. It happens time and again to supposedly sensible people.
The best thing we can teach students is when to say NO. When to admit that the are scared of flying in weather that is life threatening. When to admit that they do not have the training to do the job and to demand that training. Just because we are doing a job that we love it doesn't mean that we should sacrifice our lives for it.
Scud running in a single engine at 200ft agl over the ocean with no rad-alt fits into this category... Nobody should be agreeing to do this.... It does make it cheap for the operator/ customer though... When this is perceived as normal by those entering the industry we have a big, big problem ahead of us to make this a safe industry.
SA and ADM is the most important thing we can attempt to teach. I just wish it wasn't so damn difficult!!!
Last edited by splodge; 23rd Feb 2005 at 02:28.
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splodge said it all! "The best thing we can teach students is when to say NO."
There is NO comparison between real-world helo flying and real-world airplane flying, because anyone who can spell "H" can make a heliport, while airplanes live in a world tailored for them. Every runway 27 is the same, everywhere on the planet, because airplanes insist that they be that way. There is no 747 pilot on earth who would take passengers to a rig, because all his alarm bells would be ringing as he landed.
Teaching everything to helo pilots is impossible, because we do everything, and every day is different. The most important thing we can teach people is when to say "Stop!" and "No!" which are functions of the limitations of the crew, machine and environment.
There is NO comparison between real-world helo flying and real-world airplane flying, because anyone who can spell "H" can make a heliport, while airplanes live in a world tailored for them. Every runway 27 is the same, everywhere on the planet, because airplanes insist that they be that way. There is no 747 pilot on earth who would take passengers to a rig, because all his alarm bells would be ringing as he landed.
Teaching everything to helo pilots is impossible, because we do everything, and every day is different. The most important thing we can teach people is when to say "Stop!" and "No!" which are functions of the limitations of the crew, machine and environment.
And going back to the original question, 'what flying schools don't teach you...':
How to park multiple helis in a hangar that would initially seem to be too small to fit them all.
2 blades, 3 blades, 4 & 5. All with heads at different heights. It can seem like a jumbo game of Tetris at times...!
(And only something else that has to be picked up 'on the job').
Regards,
B73
How to park multiple helis in a hangar that would initially seem to be too small to fit them all.
2 blades, 3 blades, 4 & 5. All with heads at different heights. It can seem like a jumbo game of Tetris at times...!
(And only something else that has to be picked up 'on the job').
Regards,
B73
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Splodge,
When I was doing my low level helicopter mustering training most of the focus was on wind. Not turning downwind in the treetops without sufficient speed/altitude. The only thing I remember being told about wires was to cross them at a pole if possible.
When I did my fixed wing ag training I was taught among other things:
a. Never fly where a powerline could conceivably be strung without determining for certain that one hadn't been. This to include between peaks no matter how remote. Draw a line in your minds eye between the tops and fly over it. After a while it becomes instinctive.
b. I was taught how to check whether a line was high enough to fly under by flying beside it initially. Then, if there is, not to watch it as you go under 'cause you'll tend to pull up into it if you do.
c. A lot of wires are made of aluminium which reflects sunlight well. So if its possible to spray a field so that you only cross the wire flying in one direction. Make it so the sun is behind you (early morning, late afternoon). That way you'll see the wire more easily and if you can see it you've a better chance of not hitting it.
d. Mostly I was taught that they are bloody killers and to take them seriously. This was reinforced on every training sortie.
e. Another hint. When you're driving. Study the wires that you can see beside the road. The orientation of insulators, stay wires, transformers etc; can give vital information about where the actual wires are when you're flying and can't see them as easily. If you can drive in the same area as you fly, make mental notes about where they run. More than once I've known to look for a wire from the air because I've remembered seeing it from the ground.
Find yourself a fixed wing ag-pilot to talk to about wires and how they manage them. Ag-pilots spend most of their working lives down in the wire environment (like many helicopter pilots) yet on a strike per hours exposure basis hit far fewer than any most other sector of GA. There has to be a reason for this and I believe its training.
DB
When I was doing my low level helicopter mustering training most of the focus was on wind. Not turning downwind in the treetops without sufficient speed/altitude. The only thing I remember being told about wires was to cross them at a pole if possible.
When I did my fixed wing ag training I was taught among other things:
a. Never fly where a powerline could conceivably be strung without determining for certain that one hadn't been. This to include between peaks no matter how remote. Draw a line in your minds eye between the tops and fly over it. After a while it becomes instinctive.
b. I was taught how to check whether a line was high enough to fly under by flying beside it initially. Then, if there is, not to watch it as you go under 'cause you'll tend to pull up into it if you do.
c. A lot of wires are made of aluminium which reflects sunlight well. So if its possible to spray a field so that you only cross the wire flying in one direction. Make it so the sun is behind you (early morning, late afternoon). That way you'll see the wire more easily and if you can see it you've a better chance of not hitting it.
d. Mostly I was taught that they are bloody killers and to take them seriously. This was reinforced on every training sortie.
e. Another hint. When you're driving. Study the wires that you can see beside the road. The orientation of insulators, stay wires, transformers etc; can give vital information about where the actual wires are when you're flying and can't see them as easily. If you can drive in the same area as you fly, make mental notes about where they run. More than once I've known to look for a wire from the air because I've remembered seeing it from the ground.
Find yourself a fixed wing ag-pilot to talk to about wires and how they manage them. Ag-pilots spend most of their working lives down in the wire environment (like many helicopter pilots) yet on a strike per hours exposure basis hit far fewer than any most other sector of GA. There has to be a reason for this and I believe its training.
DB
