R22 Corner
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Firstly, the passenger's cyclic is removable, and I think it's always a good idea in the R22 to remove the spare set of controls when flying with pax. There's little enough room anyway, without your pax not being able to stretch their legs because of the pedals, and having a collective on either side of them in narrow seats. Secondly, I've had this happen. I was a fairly new PPL(H), with only about my second passenger. He knocked the cyclic quite hard, and it disconcerted me, but no more. I really can't imagine an accident happening this way. If one has...well, freak accidents are possible. As for letting go of the cyclic, as vfrpilot says, you just don't. When you fly an R22, the cyclic is an extension of your right hand.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: Queensland Australia
Also never heard of it happening here in Oz, at least not on the grapevine. The nearest to this I have heard of is when instructors have have had to do the sudden tug to pull the cyclic out of a panic stunned student with a death grip on the cyclic. Kind of the reverse to the one being discussed.
Most people remove the Pax cyclic and collective etc when not using it. Have heard a few times where the collective has been interfered with, usually by the seat belt being looped over it by Pax but you find out about that on lift off, it isn't a thing that suddenly appears in flight.
Most people remove the Pax cyclic and collective etc when not using it. Have heard a few times where the collective has been interfered with, usually by the seat belt being looped over it by Pax but you find out about that on lift off, it isn't a thing that suddenly appears in flight.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
From: Florida
I've often wondered if this hasn't been the cause of some accidents, particularly during instruction.
I've personally had two occasions, once in an R22 and the other in a 300 when the student simply let go of the cyclic. In the R22 a young lady had a habit of doing it if we hit some turbulence. She would simply throw her hands up in the air. If I hadn't have had my hand guarding the cyclic maybe I'd be another statistic. Eventually I gave up flying with her.
The time in the 300 scared the living **** out of me. We were in cruise flight and the student was an Italian guy who had a couple of hundred hours. I was looking out the side window, with feet and hands off the controls when suddenly we rolled over to our left. I grabbed everything I could and asked him what the hell he was doing. He had let go of the cyclic to change the volume on the radio. If it had been in trim properly then maybe it wouldn't have posed such a problem.
Obviously if this was the cause of an accident then there would be no way of knowing as mechanically the aircraft would be sound. Certainly food for thought.
I've personally had two occasions, once in an R22 and the other in a 300 when the student simply let go of the cyclic. In the R22 a young lady had a habit of doing it if we hit some turbulence. She would simply throw her hands up in the air. If I hadn't have had my hand guarding the cyclic maybe I'd be another statistic. Eventually I gave up flying with her.
The time in the 300 scared the living **** out of me. We were in cruise flight and the student was an Italian guy who had a couple of hundred hours. I was looking out the side window, with feet and hands off the controls when suddenly we rolled over to our left. I grabbed everything I could and asked him what the hell he was doing. He had let go of the cyclic to change the volume on the radio. If it had been in trim properly then maybe it wouldn't have posed such a problem.
Obviously if this was the cause of an accident then there would be no way of knowing as mechanically the aircraft would be sound. Certainly food for thought.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: W'n. USA--full time RV
Hmmm, apparently survivable
Well, so far it sounds like nobody has ALMOST died due to sudden control excursions. Anybody else got one?
Vis-a-vis removable controls: it was kind of you folks to mention the control removal angle, and of course that reduces the risk. Perhaps I should have limited the cabin occupants roster to individuals-you-trust, such as other pilots and, in a way, students. Of course, with controls removed the yoke still sticks up in the middle and is strikeable, but the hazard is reduced.
The other side of this is that I have trouble envisioning an official government report on a dual-fatality accident being of much help--how could they possibly determine that the yoke was NOT struck? Logically, I think we can only work into this from the experiences of pilots who have come close, via having the yoke stricken from their hand. So far, a null class (if I read the above posts correctly). Most Intriguing.
Keep coming, guys! (Thanks, vaquero.)
Vis-a-vis removable controls: it was kind of you folks to mention the control removal angle, and of course that reduces the risk. Perhaps I should have limited the cabin occupants roster to individuals-you-trust, such as other pilots and, in a way, students. Of course, with controls removed the yoke still sticks up in the middle and is strikeable, but the hazard is reduced.
The other side of this is that I have trouble envisioning an official government report on a dual-fatality accident being of much help--how could they possibly determine that the yoke was NOT struck? Logically, I think we can only work into this from the experiences of pilots who have come close, via having the yoke stricken from their hand. So far, a null class (if I read the above posts correctly). Most Intriguing.
Keep coming, guys! (Thanks, vaquero.)
Iconoclast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
From: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Loss of control. Whose at fault. According to Frank it is the pilots or student.
To: pa42
It is true; there is no way to tell who initiated the situation that caused the loss of control. In the situation described in your post it would depend on how far the cyclic was displaced after being struck by the wayward hand and how fast the helicopter was flying.
It would also depend on how alert the pilot was in correcting the situation but then again both the pilot and passenger are dead and the remains of the helicopter are all over the place making the accident investigation very difficult and almost impossible to determine what caused the accident. This leaves only one conclusion. Pilot error.
This or similar situations are covered in the R-22 POH in Safety Notice 20. This also sets up the accident investigation conclusions about pilot error.
The reasons for this type of accident lie in the design of the rotorhead. The SFAR and the Robinson safety course never discuss the design problem but they both outline what the pilot must do in order to keep from getting into a loss of control or mast bumping situation.
It is true; there is no way to tell who initiated the situation that caused the loss of control. In the situation described in your post it would depend on how far the cyclic was displaced after being struck by the wayward hand and how fast the helicopter was flying.
It would also depend on how alert the pilot was in correcting the situation but then again both the pilot and passenger are dead and the remains of the helicopter are all over the place making the accident investigation very difficult and almost impossible to determine what caused the accident. This leaves only one conclusion. Pilot error.
This or similar situations are covered in the R-22 POH in Safety Notice 20. This also sets up the accident investigation conclusions about pilot error.
The reasons for this type of accident lie in the design of the rotorhead. The SFAR and the Robinson safety course never discuss the design problem but they both outline what the pilot must do in order to keep from getting into a loss of control or mast bumping situation.
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: AUSTRALIA
A number of years ago a mustering type in Queensland lost control and rolled over on take off because he had a bed roll (swag) on the pax seat not secured that rolled foreward and pushed the cyclic over. Personally I had a big guy in who couldn't get the foot operated PTT to work so started stomping up and down with heavy size 14's on the button that did surprising things to the stability, alrming but controllable, other than that I have had numerous time when a pax has bashed the cyclic even with the dual out, to no lasting affect other than laundry costs.
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
One for the instructors or lawyers maybe but isnt there a legal obligation to remove the dual when the pax is a non-pilot. I'm low on hours an experience and i always do.
Seems to make sense to me both for safety and comfort
Seems to make sense to me both for safety and comfort
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
From: Gaithersburg, MD
RobboOnly, welcome to the forum. I don't believe there is a FAA (read legal) requirement to remove the controls when a non-pilot passenger sits up front. In fact, that's not a requirement within the "Limitations" section of the POH, either. Some companies make it a requirement or part of their SOP, which may or may not be driven by their insurance company. Nevertheless, I also remove the controls (unless they are a pilot).
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
From: W'n. USA--full time RV
for further comments, please assume Heli-Rated Pilots both seats
All: as we pprune-ily drift off the question posed, let us please assume, for future comments, that the left side controls are IN and that both seats are occupied by Helicopter Rated Pilots.
I hope this formal shift in emphasis will confine the survey results to reports of what HAS OCCURRED by accidental arm movements (in momentary excitement, viz. "Thar She Blows!"), and minimize hypothetical sermons about who and what should be installed or de-installed on the left side.
I do agree with the majority, de-installing left controls is frequently appropriate. That's a pre-flight issue. The question is, whether they're there or not, have we any anecdotal incidents of near-death that suggest accidental arm movements may be a fatal accident cause?
=======
Insurance companies vary, when I had Pathfinder they mandated control removal if left seat occupant not helicopter rated. Subsequent companies are ignorant enough not to care. None require tying left seat occupant's hands behind back, the only sure remedy for my proposed scenario!
I hope this formal shift in emphasis will confine the survey results to reports of what HAS OCCURRED by accidental arm movements (in momentary excitement, viz. "Thar She Blows!"), and minimize hypothetical sermons about who and what should be installed or de-installed on the left side.
I do agree with the majority, de-installing left controls is frequently appropriate. That's a pre-flight issue. The question is, whether they're there or not, have we any anecdotal incidents of near-death that suggest accidental arm movements may be a fatal accident cause?
=======
Insurance companies vary, when I had Pathfinder they mandated control removal if left seat occupant not helicopter rated. Subsequent companies are ignorant enough not to care. None require tying left seat occupant's hands behind back, the only sure remedy for my proposed scenario!
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 41
Likes: 0
From: UK
There was one fairly recent accident in which a passenger bashing the controls was a possible cause of the mast bumping which resulted in 2 deaths.
The report is here G-VFSI Report
F.O.M
The report is here G-VFSI Report
F.O.M
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: UK
I have once had it demonstrated to me by an instructor (loss of cyclic control).
It was demonstrated for roughly 2 seconds, by that time the aircraft was in a roughly a 20 degree nose up attitude and begining to roll quickly to the left.
Suggest knowbody tries it, I certainly won't be!
It was demonstrated for roughly 2 seconds, by that time the aircraft was in a roughly a 20 degree nose up attitude and begining to roll quickly to the left.
Suggest knowbody tries it, I certainly won't be!
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
From: UK
Hi Guys,
I have had experience in trailering many R22's and R44's generally from fields were pilots have put them down due to technical problems.
The key is to try and NOT trailer the aircraft unless you have no other choice.
If you are going to then my suggestion would be to definately remove the blades and either support or even better remove the tail boom, as it carries a high risk of developing fatigue problems if it's not!
A have seen a tail boom crack on an R22 before which was not supported during road transport, thank god I didn't have to foot the bill!
Happy Flying Guys!
I have had experience in trailering many R22's and R44's generally from fields were pilots have put them down due to technical problems.
The key is to try and NOT trailer the aircraft unless you have no other choice.
If you are going to then my suggestion would be to definately remove the blades and either support or even better remove the tail boom, as it carries a high risk of developing fatigue problems if it's not!
A have seen a tail boom crack on an R22 before which was not supported during road transport, thank god I didn't have to foot the bill!
Happy Flying Guys!
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 267
Likes: 0
From: Queensland Australia
I wuld have thought he would have been able to close the door with the left (collective) hand without too much trouble - Why let go the cyclic?
If you really truly-rooley have to let go the cyclic with your right hand the easiest way to control the cyclic with the left hand is to plonk it on top of the centre upright and hold it steady like that not by the normal hand grip part. Changes it to control in just one plane rather than two.
Not that I'm advocating it of course but it works if you get a cramp etc.
If you really truly-rooley have to let go the cyclic with your right hand the easiest way to control the cyclic with the left hand is to plonk it on top of the centre upright and hold it steady like that not by the normal hand grip part. Changes it to control in just one plane rather than two.
Not that I'm advocating it of course but it works if you get a cramp etc.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 153
Likes: 0
From: In my skin, strapped to my Helo...
I seem to recall a Safety Notice in the R22/R44 POH stating that the dual controls should be removed when a non-qualified person is occupying the left hand seat. Any comments?