R22 Corner
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Most schools charge the insurance deductable/excess, frequently £1000. 
The most likely time for an overspeed at this time of year is the first flight of the day, when checking the carb heat, now that it's done at 100% RPM again rather than 75%. Carb ice melts, and RRPM goes up...and up...and up. It can do it very quickly sometimes, and you have to be quick to catch it,. I'm surprised there aren't more overspeeds in that situation.
The most likely time for an overspeed at this time of year is the first flight of the day, when checking the carb heat, now that it's done at 100% RPM again rather than 75%. Carb ice melts, and RRPM goes up...and up...and up. It can do it very quickly sometimes, and you have to be quick to catch it,. I'm surprised there aren't more overspeeds in that situation.
The R22 has reached the limit of it growth margins, adding any further weight to the aircraft would required a substantial redesign. Therefore, since virtually all developments will add weight to the aircraft they are ruled out as a matter of policy.
Anyway, adding an overspeed protection device is a small priority compared to the other things that big-R would change if it was worth doing....but of course it is not if you have a complete monopoly on the market (91%) last time I checked. The only customer migration big R has to worry about is customers moving from R22 to R44, hardly a big problem is it, having to take twice as much money off them...
I shouldn't expect too much more to happen to the R22 until R's had is forced...and even then it many not be worth his while, R44 accounts for over 80% of aircraft sales revenue and is in slightly less risky market [i.e. not a primary trainer].
Hope this helps
CRAN
Anyway, adding an overspeed protection device is a small priority compared to the other things that big-R would change if it was worth doing....but of course it is not if you have a complete monopoly on the market (91%) last time I checked. The only customer migration big R has to worry about is customers moving from R22 to R44, hardly a big problem is it, having to take twice as much money off them...
I shouldn't expect too much more to happen to the R22 until R's had is forced...and even then it many not be worth his while, R44 accounts for over 80% of aircraft sales revenue and is in slightly less risky market [i.e. not a primary trainer].
Hope this helps
CRAN
Cool as a moosp
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Whirly and anyone else, I have not yet received the POH ammendment to carry out the carb heat check on the R22 at "100%". Can you give me the date of the new page and I can chase it up? We usually get seamail updates to HKG...
The Original Whirly
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Dohhhhhhh!!! Here I am spreading rumours again. Oh well, this is a rumours forum. I haven't seen anything in writing either, as it happens. I got told we were back to doing it at 100%, and I just believed it. After nearly getting an overspeed, maybe I'll go back to 75% if no-one else knows of any change. Sorry for the confusion.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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Overspeeds on the R22 can and do occurr when in flight also, a very well known FTO rented to me on SFH basis one of their R22's what they omitted to tell me was that it had suffered from an overspeed by one student pilot whilst with one Fi and it reached in excess of 115%, I was the lucky guy who next flew this by now heap of scrap, one problem with any helicopter is the walk round pre flight, you can look and touch and rock about and twist things around, do all you full and free and then you Ts&Ps on start up, what you cant see are the stretched and completly goosed rotor bearings that are in the teetering head, and as far as I know there really is no way these can be checked from the pre-flight.
But dear reader, once airborne and reaching the types of velocity to start flying this problem will show its self, I am only here today I think because I weigh 90Kgs and have previously wrastled big things on farms, the stick shake that was induced from about 38knts was so severe I couldnt raise my thumb to press the radio button to declare a problem, I was forced to carry on and kept to a minimum of 500ft whislt working out what I had to do, the tide was in I couldnt land on the beach so I had to fly a long gently looping arc to get back to the field, after locking off the collective and using that free hand to comm with the tower, I then concentrated on getting that giant vibrator back to the ground, whilst doing my best to fly over green field and to miss the housing and factories that abound around EGNH, the fact that I am here tells you I got down, with the help of the tower by keeping everyone well away from me until I had got back down to hover taxi speed, when at that point the giant vibrator stopped.
After I had landed and done my run down and after flight checks I still couldnt see anything wrong with the rotor, or head despite now knowing something had happened to it and was sadly wrong, but as I was very slowly walking in I was met by certain people who proffessed they had forgotten to red card the Heli.
What I wonder would have been said if I had gone in!! needless to say that crowd of cowboys has never since had any money from me.
But I still dont know how you would see overspeed damage on any preflight
Vfr
But dear reader, once airborne and reaching the types of velocity to start flying this problem will show its self, I am only here today I think because I weigh 90Kgs and have previously wrastled big things on farms, the stick shake that was induced from about 38knts was so severe I couldnt raise my thumb to press the radio button to declare a problem, I was forced to carry on and kept to a minimum of 500ft whislt working out what I had to do, the tide was in I couldnt land on the beach so I had to fly a long gently looping arc to get back to the field, after locking off the collective and using that free hand to comm with the tower, I then concentrated on getting that giant vibrator back to the ground, whilst doing my best to fly over green field and to miss the housing and factories that abound around EGNH, the fact that I am here tells you I got down, with the help of the tower by keeping everyone well away from me until I had got back down to hover taxi speed, when at that point the giant vibrator stopped.
After I had landed and done my run down and after flight checks I still couldnt see anything wrong with the rotor, or head despite now knowing something had happened to it and was sadly wrong, but as I was very slowly walking in I was met by certain people who proffessed they had forgotten to red card the Heli.
What I wonder would have been said if I had gone in!! needless to say that crowd of cowboys has never since had any money from me.
But I still dont know how you would see overspeed damage on any preflight
Vfr
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Overspeeds
Vfr,
Dont know if this is going to be of any help to you because you may already be awear of this, but one way of checking for an over-speed on either the R22 or the R44 is to have a look at the nut that holds the cooling fan in place. There should be a line of white 'torque seal' drawn from on one side of the fan, across the nut and back onto the other side on the fan. If this line on the nut doesnt match up with the two lines on the fan then this may be an indication of an overspeed, allbeit an engine overspeed.
As to checking for brindled bearings in the blades, I dont think there is any way of checking them in a pre-flight, only when the blades come off the A/C.
PA321
Dont know if this is going to be of any help to you because you may already be awear of this, but one way of checking for an over-speed on either the R22 or the R44 is to have a look at the nut that holds the cooling fan in place. There should be a line of white 'torque seal' drawn from on one side of the fan, across the nut and back onto the other side on the fan. If this line on the nut doesnt match up with the two lines on the fan then this may be an indication of an overspeed, allbeit an engine overspeed.
As to checking for brindled bearings in the blades, I dont think there is any way of checking them in a pre-flight, only when the blades come off the A/C.
PA321
I has been taught to do always the carburetor heater check with my left hand in the throttle and the right in the "lever?" (stick between legs) , ALWAYS looking at the engine rpm , I can't see the problem with the ice and high rpm, you can always roll the throttle, but it's also true that I haven't flown in icing conditions... 
I think that there is no need for a rpm limiter , but I'm just a low time student
I think extacly the same...
A friend of mine , in the first hours almost had a overspeed but , as it should be he was with an instructor.
Regards.
I think that there is no need for a rpm limiter , but I'm just a low time student
To my mind, if the pilot follows the checklist, they're safe, and it's incumbent on the school to teach well enough to avoid it - not only in the "this is what you do and don't do" but "this is the time you concentrate on one task" sort of stuff.
A friend of mine , in the first hours almost had a overspeed but , as it should be he was with an instructor.
Regards.
Senis Semper Fidelis
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PA321,
Yes, on my preflight the white line was Ok and not cracked. have been told since that the only way a Rotor Overspeed can become known about is by those responsible being HONEST, sadly sometime Honesty is a very rare commodity.
Yes, on my preflight the white line was Ok and not cracked. have been told since that the only way a Rotor Overspeed can become known about is by those responsible being HONEST, sadly sometime Honesty is a very rare commodity.
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Absolutely right Vfrpilotpb and with the schools charging the students or instructors for the overspeeds I'm almost sure this, in most cases, will make it even harder (more expensive) to be honest.
I used to teach in school with R22's and Schweizer 300's (about 20 aircraft in total) and the boss always encouraged honesty by never charging for damage to aircraft. On the other hand everybody knew an unreported overspeed would be the fastest way out of the school and rightly so.
I used to teach in school with R22's and Schweizer 300's (about 20 aircraft in total) and the boss always encouraged honesty by never charging for damage to aircraft. On the other hand everybody knew an unreported overspeed would be the fastest way out of the school and rightly so.
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r22 rotor stall
I have a question that has been bugging me perhaps you guys can help.
In the R22 POH it states that “In the event of low RPM (indicated by horn and light I presume) the pilot must first roll on throttle and lower collective simultaneously to recover RPM before investigating problem”
I can not understand why the manual does not tell you to enter autorotation immediately as I thought that you only had 1 second to react to an engine failure. A low RPM horn and light could also indicate an engine failure. Why not enter auto and then investigate?
My question is
1 In flight how do decide whether to enter autorotation or roll throttle and lower collective given that you have one second to make your mind up?
2. How many of you have experienced the low RPM and light activating in flight? What were the conditions? How often have you experienced it?
Thanks
Raven2
In the R22 POH it states that “In the event of low RPM (indicated by horn and light I presume) the pilot must first roll on throttle and lower collective simultaneously to recover RPM before investigating problem”
I can not understand why the manual does not tell you to enter autorotation immediately as I thought that you only had 1 second to react to an engine failure. A low RPM horn and light could also indicate an engine failure. Why not enter auto and then investigate?
My question is
1 In flight how do decide whether to enter autorotation or roll throttle and lower collective given that you have one second to make your mind up?
2. How many of you have experienced the low RPM and light activating in flight? What were the conditions? How often have you experienced it?
Thanks
Raven2
The Original Whirly
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I'll pass on what I still remember Dick Sanford saying on the R22 Safety Course.
In the event of engine failure, you will get a violent yaw to the left. That is apparently the most obvious sign, so if you get that AND the horn, then enter auto-rotation immediately. But what Dick said was that there are other reasons for low rotor RPM. The most common one is over-riding the governor. He gave a likely scenario...you're on a cross country, the weather starts closing in, you're not sure where you are and perhaps a bit worried about your endurance. You start to worry and get tense, which means you grip the collective too hard and inadvertantly over-ride the governor. The next thing you know is the horn goes off. Already stressed, you enter auto-rotation...
He said there had been accidents from unsuccessful attempted forced landings in this sort of situation. So what he told us was: if the horn goes off, with no other indications, roll on throttle and flare. The flare will raise the RPM anyway, thereby giving you slightly longer to see if it works, or if you really do need to enter auto-rotation.
The only time I've experienced the horn and going off in flight is during governor-off training. You might say that doesn't count. However, it is also a good thing to practise (with an instructor, not allowed otherwise), just so that you don't immediately panic as soon as the horn goes off. Governor failure is of course another possible cause of low RRPM, and I gather is not unknown...if something can fail, then one day it will.
I hope that helps. And if you haven't been on a Robinson Safety Course, I'd highly recommend it; one of the best things I've ever done.
In the event of engine failure, you will get a violent yaw to the left. That is apparently the most obvious sign, so if you get that AND the horn, then enter auto-rotation immediately. But what Dick said was that there are other reasons for low rotor RPM. The most common one is over-riding the governor. He gave a likely scenario...you're on a cross country, the weather starts closing in, you're not sure where you are and perhaps a bit worried about your endurance. You start to worry and get tense, which means you grip the collective too hard and inadvertantly over-ride the governor. The next thing you know is the horn goes off. Already stressed, you enter auto-rotation...
He said there had been accidents from unsuccessful attempted forced landings in this sort of situation. So what he told us was: if the horn goes off, with no other indications, roll on throttle and flare. The flare will raise the RPM anyway, thereby giving you slightly longer to see if it works, or if you really do need to enter auto-rotation.
The only time I've experienced the horn and going off in flight is during governor-off training. You might say that doesn't count. However, it is also a good thing to practise (with an instructor, not allowed otherwise), just so that you don't immediately panic as soon as the horn goes off. Governor failure is of course another possible cause of low RRPM, and I gather is not unknown...if something can fail, then one day it will.
I hope that helps. And if you haven't been on a Robinson Safety Course, I'd highly recommend it; one of the best things I've ever done.
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Raven,
The reason for your confusion is your predisposition to think that the rpm is low because the engine failed. Remember that rpm drops when the demand for power is more than the power you have.
The demand for power is determined by many things, but collective setting is primary. As written, the rpm recovery procedure is telling you to demand less power (lower collective) and be sure you are at high throttle (increase throttle).
This procedure has nothing to do with autorotaion, in other words. The British term for the condition is overpitching, a really good way to say you are asking for more power than the engine can deliver, and so you are dragging the rotor down.
In a hover, this is a nice way to start an LTE event (I do not like that term, but it is with us). This means you are likely to hit the pedal stops during an overpitch because you have now demanded max power (max main torque means max tail torque to counter it) and at the same time you have limited the tail rotor thrust because the rpm is reduced (and rotor thrust is reduced by the square of the rpm).
The reason for your confusion is your predisposition to think that the rpm is low because the engine failed. Remember that rpm drops when the demand for power is more than the power you have.
The demand for power is determined by many things, but collective setting is primary. As written, the rpm recovery procedure is telling you to demand less power (lower collective) and be sure you are at high throttle (increase throttle).
This procedure has nothing to do with autorotaion, in other words. The British term for the condition is overpitching, a really good way to say you are asking for more power than the engine can deliver, and so you are dragging the rotor down.
In a hover, this is a nice way to start an LTE event (I do not like that term, but it is with us). This means you are likely to hit the pedal stops during an overpitch because you have now demanded max power (max main torque means max tail torque to counter it) and at the same time you have limited the tail rotor thrust because the rpm is reduced (and rotor thrust is reduced by the square of the rpm).
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Helibiggles
Judging by a recent discussion in this forum about training in the UK, the R22 rental price you quote doesn't seem very different from prices in the UK.
Training in an R22 here costs about £210 pr/hr plus tax.
Fuel is very expensive because of our extremely high fuel tax, and FI costs are about £40 pr/hr even for a newly qualified QFI with nothing like the 17000 hours you mention.
£170 for an R22 + £40 for the FI plus tax @ 17.5% = £246.75 per hour.
Not surprisingly, if family/work commitments allow, many Brits train in America where fuel is much cheaper and FI hourly rates are less than half here.
Judging by a recent discussion in this forum about training in the UK, the R22 rental price you quote doesn't seem very different from prices in the UK.
Training in an R22 here costs about £210 pr/hr plus tax.
Fuel is very expensive because of our extremely high fuel tax, and FI costs are about £40 pr/hr even for a newly qualified QFI with nothing like the 17000 hours you mention.
£170 for an R22 + £40 for the FI plus tax @ 17.5% = £246.75 per hour.
Not surprisingly, if family/work commitments allow, many Brits train in America where fuel is much cheaper and FI hourly rates are less than half here.