R22 Corner
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New South Wales
1.1 seconds to react or your wing falls off in the cruise? Less in the climb? You guys shouldn't let this information get out -- could give helicopters a bad name.
Oh, for a solid plank on each side of the cockpit...
QDM
Oh, for a solid plank on each side of the cockpit...
QDM
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 121
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From: Australia
1.1 seconds really is just a figure that allerts inexperienced drivers to the dangers of not getting the collective down in a hurry.
The other mechanical problem that R22 pilots faced here in Australia for many months was the rolling off of the drive belts. Two R22's, in one day, were auto'd successfully to the ground due to belts failing............by the same pilot. A bad batch of manufactured belts were sent to Oz. I remember 6 cases of belts failing. If you smell rubber whilst flying......land, as with fuel starvation, it is an instant failure.
In practice, thankfully, you would be surprised at how fast you will react. The biggest reaction to an engine failure in a robbie (most helicopters) is in the yawing of the aircraft. Even coughing engines can scew an airframe up to 10-20 degrees. I remember booting in so much peddle that I actually yawed to the right. It was an unconscious knee jerk reaction, so to speak, but it was instantaneous and the collective followed as a result of the fright. The next reaction was the overspeeding RPM of the rotor system shortly thereafter as I was holding the collective on the stop.
Moral of the story is that you shouldn't stress too much as I truly beleive that your reactions (whilst being current) will kick in well before your alloted 1.1 seconds has even started.
Cheers
The other mechanical problem that R22 pilots faced here in Australia for many months was the rolling off of the drive belts. Two R22's, in one day, were auto'd successfully to the ground due to belts failing............by the same pilot. A bad batch of manufactured belts were sent to Oz. I remember 6 cases of belts failing. If you smell rubber whilst flying......land, as with fuel starvation, it is an instant failure.
In practice, thankfully, you would be surprised at how fast you will react. The biggest reaction to an engine failure in a robbie (most helicopters) is in the yawing of the aircraft. Even coughing engines can scew an airframe up to 10-20 degrees. I remember booting in so much peddle that I actually yawed to the right. It was an unconscious knee jerk reaction, so to speak, but it was instantaneous and the collective followed as a result of the fright. The next reaction was the overspeeding RPM of the rotor system shortly thereafter as I was holding the collective on the stop.
Moral of the story is that you shouldn't stress too much as I truly beleive that your reactions (whilst being current) will kick in well before your alloted 1.1 seconds has even started.
Cheers
Last edited by rotorque; 11th July 2002 at 22:57.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 571
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From: Alderney or Lancashire UK
Rotorque, You ask for comparative examples.
Enstrom 28/280 allegedly gives about 15 seconds grace in these circumstances, before folding up, and will fly at 75% RRPM - and recover
I remember a thread on pprune where an instructor describes closing throttle and counting to ten before lowering the lever in an Enstrom.
Also, allegedly one is able to close the throttle on the ground, lift, do a 180 and land again on the energy in the rotor system. Don't try this in a R22!
I haven't tried any of these and would choose the Robbo technique with the lever if the enqine quits! The extra time allowance should not make one complacent.
Enstrom 28/280 allegedly gives about 15 seconds grace in these circumstances, before folding up, and will fly at 75% RRPM - and recover
I remember a thread on pprune where an instructor describes closing throttle and counting to ten before lowering the lever in an Enstrom.
Also, allegedly one is able to close the throttle on the ground, lift, do a 180 and land again on the energy in the rotor system. Don't try this in a R22!
I haven't tried any of these and would choose the Robbo technique with the lever if the enqine quits! The extra time allowance should not make one complacent.
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 206
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From: Asia Pacific.
Flare Dammit
A good synopsis of auto's.
If I'd had the time, I probably would have attempted to write something similar - but perhaps unwisely, I chose to write a one-para sound-bite, leaving out the detail.
I agree that relying on a rote-learned response for all situations is not ideal - i.e. (as I wrote) it depends on your height-velocity predicament.
Interesting you should equate a Robbo endorsement with having low time/no experience...
If I'd had the time, I probably would have attempted to write something similar - but perhaps unwisely, I chose to write a one-para sound-bite, leaving out the detail.
I agree that relying on a rote-learned response for all situations is not ideal - i.e. (as I wrote) it depends on your height-velocity predicament.
Interesting you should equate a Robbo endorsement with having low time/no experience...
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
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Well Squiff ol' bean, what you actually wrote was...
"Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament?"
See, I took that as a question by someone who didn't know the correct answer. Sorry for the confusion.
"I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint."
I think you were taught wrong...or maybe just incompletely. As we've seen, it's not quite that simple.
"Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?"
Again with the ambiguity. YES!
Well anyway mate, have fun with the Robbo transition! But don't worry - I dare say you'll probably pass, even though it may be a tad bit more sophisticated and/or complicated than what you've been flying, but it'll hone and sharpen your skills as you gain knowledge and experience on your path to becoming a professional pilot. Best of luck! Let us know how it comes out.
"Surely the flare-or-not-to-flare question depends on your heigh/velocity predicament?"
See, I took that as a question by someone who didn't know the correct answer. Sorry for the confusion.
"I was always taught to just lower the bloody lever, keep it in balance and go for the correct speed - depending on your aimpoint."
I think you were taught wrong...or maybe just incompletely. As we've seen, it's not quite that simple.
"Automatically entering a flare could be risky, lest you be left at the wrong height with no speed?"
Again with the ambiguity. YES!
Well anyway mate, have fun with the Robbo transition! But don't worry - I dare say you'll probably pass, even though it may be a tad bit more sophisticated and/or complicated than what you've been flying, but it'll hone and sharpen your skills as you gain knowledge and experience on your path to becoming a professional pilot. Best of luck! Let us know how it comes out.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 267
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From: Queensland Australia
Cran,
I'll start the ball rolling, so to speak.
I'm in Aus but I'm a private pilot and don't do any commercial work but I can give you some numbers which might help.
Current AUS$1 = 57c US and 36 Euro cents
The figures I am giving are somewhat variable around the country. It's a big place with lots of local variation in services and availability of parts costs etc
A new Beta II is in the ball park of AUS$300,000
I have a late lifed Beta with a few hundred hours to run (but 1200 hours to run engine) to it's second rebuild and I've been told its worth about a $100-110K
A timed out hull (either 12yrs or 2200hrs) is worth about AUS$50K.
Cost of an overhaul kit is about AUS $130K
My LAME charges about $65 an hour and parts cost a fortune. Basically double the cost ex-Robinson factory (in US$) plus a bit for transport, local profits and costs. Say maybe 210%.
100 hourly's start at a base rate of about AUS$1K then add costs of anything that needs replacement.
Unscheduled maintenance - pick a figure from the sky.....double it......add grandma's age and granpop's shoe size. Mine's ranged from AUS$6K -$20K (ouch) per year.
Fuel here is about AUS$1 - AUS$1.10 a litre and my R22 uses about 32 litres an hour (averaged out) but the planning burn rate is 34.
Oil costs me about AUS$72 for a carton of 12 quart bottles and I'd use 2 cartons (for scheduled oil changes) plus maybe another half carton a year for top ups.
Insurance I was paying 15% of hull value when I was insuring it. I stopped and just have 3rd party/pax liability now ($1300 a year) Commercial operaters tell me they get much better rates than that.
Hangerage - a bit like unsheduled maintenance - only smaller.
Varies all over the country.
Hope that helps.
I'll start the ball rolling, so to speak.
I'm in Aus but I'm a private pilot and don't do any commercial work but I can give you some numbers which might help.
Current AUS$1 = 57c US and 36 Euro cents
The figures I am giving are somewhat variable around the country. It's a big place with lots of local variation in services and availability of parts costs etc
A new Beta II is in the ball park of AUS$300,000
I have a late lifed Beta with a few hundred hours to run (but 1200 hours to run engine) to it's second rebuild and I've been told its worth about a $100-110K
A timed out hull (either 12yrs or 2200hrs) is worth about AUS$50K.
Cost of an overhaul kit is about AUS $130K
My LAME charges about $65 an hour and parts cost a fortune. Basically double the cost ex-Robinson factory (in US$) plus a bit for transport, local profits and costs. Say maybe 210%.
100 hourly's start at a base rate of about AUS$1K then add costs of anything that needs replacement.
Unscheduled maintenance - pick a figure from the sky.....double it......add grandma's age and granpop's shoe size. Mine's ranged from AUS$6K -$20K (ouch) per year.
Fuel here is about AUS$1 - AUS$1.10 a litre and my R22 uses about 32 litres an hour (averaged out) but the planning burn rate is 34.
Oil costs me about AUS$72 for a carton of 12 quart bottles and I'd use 2 cartons (for scheduled oil changes) plus maybe another half carton a year for top ups.
Insurance I was paying 15% of hull value when I was insuring it. I stopped and just have 3rd party/pax liability now ($1300 a year) Commercial operaters tell me they get much better rates than that.
Hangerage - a bit like unsheduled maintenance - only smaller.
Varies all over the country.
Hope that helps.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
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"Flare - D
Have you actually got much R22 time?"
None at all, mate. Thank the Lord, none at-friggin-all. I hope you don't expect me to be ashamed. But virtually all of my time is in birds powered by turbines (preferably two), the way God intended. In fact, the last piston-popper I flew was in 1982 when I went for my CPL(H) certs.
I worried there that this might be a "R-22 only" thread, but since the principles apply to *all* single-engine helis, I was sure the mighty R-22 chopper pilots couldn't be that elitist.
I used to like the fragile Robbo. But Lu Z (one "n") has convinced me not to even *look* at one ever again, which of course I won't. I will say this: People who fly R-22s are better pilots than me. Or something.
Have you actually got much R22 time?"
None at all, mate. Thank the Lord, none at-friggin-all. I hope you don't expect me to be ashamed. But virtually all of my time is in birds powered by turbines (preferably two), the way God intended. In fact, the last piston-popper I flew was in 1982 when I went for my CPL(H) certs.
I worried there that this might be a "R-22 only" thread, but since the principles apply to *all* single-engine helis, I was sure the mighty R-22 chopper pilots couldn't be that elitist.
I used to like the fragile Robbo. But Lu Z (one "n") has convinced me not to even *look* at one ever again, which of course I won't. I will say this: People who fly R-22s are better pilots than me. Or something.
Last edited by Flare Dammit!; 11th July 2002 at 15:46.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 214
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From: too near London
Good for you F-D. However, I think that the original question did relate to R22s and as much as your comments are great wrt machines that actually have some rotor inertia to speak of, I suspect that a sudden engine stoppage in a Robbie will benefit from a flare of some sort in most cases, assuming of course you have any airspeed in the first place.....
Big Snogs
Big Snogs
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 23
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From: Cambridge, England
I'd definitely go with the advice implied in VfrPilot's earlier reply - in an R22, first sign of doubt, get the lever down. It buys you a lot more time!
...Engine sounds funny? Do it now!
...Vibration? Do it now!
...T&P's look out-of-whack suddenly Do it now!
...Funny red-coloured glow from somewhere on the panel? Do it now!
THEN you figure out what your concern was, and pull the power in again if it was nothing to worry about.
..actually, I'll add to the list: ...passenger looks very pale and is making groaning noises whilst holding his hand over his/her mouth? Do it quick! (Been there, done that!)
Also true what was said earlier - first sign of an engine losing power in R22 is a yaw. I will never forget my first Practice Engine Failure with my instructor. I smile about it now. Trying to teach me in stages he explained that, first time round, HE would say "Practice Engine Failure...3...2...1...go. Somewhere in the midst of the explanation he also said that HE would chop the throttle on the word GO.
...well, my defence (your honour) is that I was inexperienced, and more than a little apprehensive of this first experience (And I KNOW that doesn't make me unique!), so therefore misunderstood. At the words "Practice Engine Failure", I chopped the throttle shut.....
....and I can say from experience, as a result, that the first reaction from the Robbo was indeed a VERY rapid yaw to the left into a diving turn as I lowered the lever.
...as for the first reaction from my instructor, well I'd better not post that here! :-)
Holly_Copter
...Engine sounds funny? Do it now!
...Vibration? Do it now!
...T&P's look out-of-whack suddenly Do it now!
...Funny red-coloured glow from somewhere on the panel? Do it now!
THEN you figure out what your concern was, and pull the power in again if it was nothing to worry about.
..actually, I'll add to the list: ...passenger looks very pale and is making groaning noises whilst holding his hand over his/her mouth? Do it quick! (Been there, done that!)
Also true what was said earlier - first sign of an engine losing power in R22 is a yaw. I will never forget my first Practice Engine Failure with my instructor. I smile about it now. Trying to teach me in stages he explained that, first time round, HE would say "Practice Engine Failure...3...2...1...go. Somewhere in the midst of the explanation he also said that HE would chop the throttle on the word GO.
...well, my defence (your honour) is that I was inexperienced, and more than a little apprehensive of this first experience (And I KNOW that doesn't make me unique!), so therefore misunderstood. At the words "Practice Engine Failure", I chopped the throttle shut.....
....and I can say from experience, as a result, that the first reaction from the Robbo was indeed a VERY rapid yaw to the left into a diving turn as I lowered the lever.
...as for the first reaction from my instructor, well I'd better not post that here! :-)
Holly_Copter
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
It seems that the R22 is the worst of the bunch in not giving much time to react to engine failures. Any one have any experice, "hopefully not" with engine failures in a 206 or r44?
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 528
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From: London
First throttle chop I ever had was sprung on me, unbriefed, by the factory test pilot at Torrance ten years ago; as a low-time UK-based pilot I'd never even HEARD of such a thing. And yes, I sat there like an idiot with my thumb in my mouth thinking, now what's it doing? while the horn blared and the nose went off on its own. Taught me a lot - firstly, that's what it looks like, and you know what you have to do. But also, it must have been three seconds after the chop before I did the right thing, and the factory pilot didn't have to intervene. Thank you Mr D Tompkins (just looked it up) for the most valuable four seconds flying I ever did.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Georgia
It seems that the R22 is the worst of the bunch in not giving much time to react to engine failures. Any one have any experice, "hopefully not" with engine failures in a 206 or r44?
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
I was wondering about the reaction time needed in some of the other heli's.
I've never had problems in the r22, "knocks on wood", but I do fly them with a bit of a pucker just to stay sharp.
thanks.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 187
Likes: 0
From: Blackpool, UK
R22 Autos
From what I remember of a 1-day safety course given by Dick Sandford, the 1.1 seconds is based on how much momentum is in the blades - and something to do with it taking 75hp to push them round one revolution at cruise speed/configuration.
As said before though, this 1.1 seconds is purely if you sit there like a dumbass (to use an americanism) listening to the horn and going "derrrrrrr... what do I do".
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
Don't forget in the flare you'll need to check the rrpm with the lever to stop it going off the top of the scale.
If the RRPM by the time you finish doing all this is 75% or above. Great! You just have to land it. If its less ....Game over.
R44 has a lot more mass in the blades = more momentum = more time to think = safer. IMHO.
If you haven't done the Dick Sanford 1 day 'safety appreciation' course - you should. Especially if you're a R22 driver. You'll come out thinking "Holy !!!!!". Very sobering stuff. Including the video of a bloke and his wife plummeting vertically downwards in a Robbo with both rotor blades folded upwards in a vee shape.
You CANT be too careful in these things. They can kill you.
The course had a lasting impression on me - as you can see from the above. But I've never taken safety for-granted since.
Don't have nightmares. Just practice practice practice.
p.s. holly_copter - you weren't the only one to chop the throttle and THEN dump the lever on his first auto. Oops.
As said before though, this 1.1 seconds is purely if you sit there like a dumbass (to use an americanism) listening to the horn and going "derrrrrrr... what do I do".
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
Don't forget in the flare you'll need to check the rrpm with the lever to stop it going off the top of the scale.
If the RRPM by the time you finish doing all this is 75% or above. Great! You just have to land it. If its less ....Game over.
R44 has a lot more mass in the blades = more momentum = more time to think = safer. IMHO.
If you haven't done the Dick Sanford 1 day 'safety appreciation' course - you should. Especially if you're a R22 driver. You'll come out thinking "Holy !!!!!". Very sobering stuff. Including the video of a bloke and his wife plummeting vertically downwards in a Robbo with both rotor blades folded upwards in a vee shape.
You CANT be too careful in these things. They can kill you.
The course had a lasting impression on me - as you can see from the above. But I've never taken safety for-granted since.
Don't have nightmares. Just practice practice practice.
p.s. holly_copter - you weren't the only one to chop the throttle and THEN dump the lever on his first auto. Oops.
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Turangi
Compared to a high-inertia rotor, low rotor RPM in a low-inertia rotor is easier to recover, so would this be an advantage for the R22, compared to a H300, when rotor RPM has been left to decay momentarily???
Joined: Sep 2000
Aviation Qualifications: Military (Retired)
Posts: 206
Likes: 0
From: Asia Pacific.
Rotor Horn
Your instinctive reaction at the sound of the horn should be to slam the lever down, correct the yaw with the pedals, pull the cyclic back to 60knts and sort yourself out. (All this assumes previous comments about being within a suitable part of the height velovity curve).
I think it is a good way to stop those flimsy little blades doing a Hills Foldable Clothes Line impression.
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
206 autorotative characteristics
kissmysquirrel noted:
(Heyyyy, watch your goddam language, squirrel! My teenage daughter reads this board.)
Yes, the 206 is a great bird, no doubt. But many pilots are lulled into a false sense of security by the 206's seemingly benign autorotative characteristics during the practice autos they see during the checkout. This is especially true if the applicant comes from a ship with not-so-great autorotative characteristics (let's not mention any names).
The fuel control of the RR/Allison 250-C20 series engine in 206B has a decelleration schedule whereby it must take a minimum of two seconds to go from full-throttle to idle. Many C-20 engines take even longer, and there is no maximum figure specified. I've had them take as long as six or seven seconds.
So no matter how quick you are at twisting the throttle off during a practice auto, the power is only going to come down at the scheduled decelleration rate. What happens is, the power comes off "softly" compared to the snap you feel in a recip. In 206 (or any a/c powered by the 250-C20 series), this gives you an erroneous indication of what a "for real" engine failure will feel like.
Secondly, once the auto has stabilized, if the N2 needle is still married with the NR needle (and in a C-20 it will be), the engine is still providing power. It may not be much...only ten h.p. or so, but it is something. And that "something" will help lengthen your glide. It is the equivalent of being 100 pounds lighter or more, according to world renowned helicopter expert, Senator Dr. Raymond Xavier Prouty III, esq. Oh, and me.
Pilots who've had real engine failures in such a/c report that the power came off rather violently and with a lot of yaw-snap (compared to what they had been used to in practice) and that the glide was a LOT steeper than they expected. Fortunately, I haven't had that happen yet, although as I say that I am knocking on my head as you can imagine.
So be careful, all you new 206 pilots out there! Things may not be what you've been prepared for. Sure, when the inevitable happens it might seem like you'll have enough time to pull out the RFM and read up on the engine-out procedures. But I guarantee that it'll take you by surprise.
Forewarned is foreskinned.
I had throttle chop auts demo'd to me a while back. NOT NICE!!!!! Flare like f**k to regain rpm or die also whilst trying to peel yourself off right hand door!!!! this was of course in the r22. Twice I have now seen just over 75% rrpm and I don't particularly want to see it again.
Just completed the B206 rating today and have to say "engine failure?" "what engine failure?" Can someone please give me a 206 to fly full time please?
Just completed the B206 rating today and have to say "engine failure?" "what engine failure?" Can someone please give me a 206 to fly full time please?
Yes, the 206 is a great bird, no doubt. But many pilots are lulled into a false sense of security by the 206's seemingly benign autorotative characteristics during the practice autos they see during the checkout. This is especially true if the applicant comes from a ship with not-so-great autorotative characteristics (let's not mention any names).
The fuel control of the RR/Allison 250-C20 series engine in 206B has a decelleration schedule whereby it must take a minimum of two seconds to go from full-throttle to idle. Many C-20 engines take even longer, and there is no maximum figure specified. I've had them take as long as six or seven seconds.
So no matter how quick you are at twisting the throttle off during a practice auto, the power is only going to come down at the scheduled decelleration rate. What happens is, the power comes off "softly" compared to the snap you feel in a recip. In 206 (or any a/c powered by the 250-C20 series), this gives you an erroneous indication of what a "for real" engine failure will feel like.
Secondly, once the auto has stabilized, if the N2 needle is still married with the NR needle (and in a C-20 it will be), the engine is still providing power. It may not be much...only ten h.p. or so, but it is something. And that "something" will help lengthen your glide. It is the equivalent of being 100 pounds lighter or more, according to world renowned helicopter expert, Senator Dr. Raymond Xavier Prouty III, esq. Oh, and me.
Pilots who've had real engine failures in such a/c report that the power came off rather violently and with a lot of yaw-snap (compared to what they had been used to in practice) and that the glide was a LOT steeper than they expected. Fortunately, I haven't had that happen yet, although as I say that I am knocking on my head as you can imagine.
So be careful, all you new 206 pilots out there! Things may not be what you've been prepared for. Sure, when the inevitable happens it might seem like you'll have enough time to pull out the RFM and read up on the engine-out procedures. But I guarantee that it'll take you by surprise.
Forewarned is foreskinned.
Last edited by Flare Dammit!; 12th July 2002 at 14:38.