R22 Corner
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 301
Likes: 16
From: Australia.
Send Clowns, a tip for you: get it in the hover, switch the governor off and SLOWLY roll the throttle off and bring the RRPM down to say 95% - listen to the engine note. Then roll it slowly on up to say 108% - listen again. Aside from a fair old change in Lift, you can learn what sounds right. Remember plenty of piston helos don't have governors and governors can fail eh?
Our school used to teach quite a simple yet effective technique. After all the pre takeoff checks are done and you are starting to raise the collective, about the time you can feel the airframe start to get light on the skids, pause and check your power AND RPM. Mainly to check the governor is working. Once you have lifted to the hover check it again. It only takes a trained glance and it teaches an awareness of power and RPM that is invaluable.
In my mind, you can't lift one off the ground and go taxying or flying without knowing beyond any doubt your power and RPM and everything else are OK. I used to say to students when doing governor off training: if they are scanning the RRPM guage a whole lot more with the governor off than they normally do, then maybe they are not looking at it enough with it on and putting a wee bit of blind faith in the hands of a circuit board.
It is a fantastic device, but not if its at the expense of basic RRPM awareness and management. RRPM is your life in any helicopter, don't just leave it to the governor.
Our school used to teach quite a simple yet effective technique. After all the pre takeoff checks are done and you are starting to raise the collective, about the time you can feel the airframe start to get light on the skids, pause and check your power AND RPM. Mainly to check the governor is working. Once you have lifted to the hover check it again. It only takes a trained glance and it teaches an awareness of power and RPM that is invaluable.
In my mind, you can't lift one off the ground and go taxying or flying without knowing beyond any doubt your power and RPM and everything else are OK. I used to say to students when doing governor off training: if they are scanning the RRPM guage a whole lot more with the governor off than they normally do, then maybe they are not looking at it enough with it on and putting a wee bit of blind faith in the hands of a circuit board.
It is a fantastic device, but not if its at the expense of basic RRPM awareness and management. RRPM is your life in any helicopter, don't just leave it to the governor.
Jet Blast Rat
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 2,081
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From: Sarfend-on-Sea
never used a manual throttle on a single - nor flown a piston helicopter. Not likely to fly any rotary for a while, but will remember to ask to do something like this when I can finally afford a PPL(H).However the Tq/RPM checks are familiar to me, same technique I was taught.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 137
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From: Dun Laoghaire
I was taught to do mag checks at 75% and 100%. The problem is, to do a mag check at 100%, cyclic friction has to be on (left hand on throttle, right hand on key). I must admit to feeling a bit nervous having the frictions on at 100%. As someone pointed out earlier, the machine is 'ready' to fly. Is their any necessity therefore to do a magcheck at 100%?? Instinct tells me that a mag check at 100% is more instructive than at 75% as it is afterall closer to normal operating RPM. But that said, I'm no expert on engines. Can anyone shed some light on that one?
Thanks!
Irlandés
P.S. Great thread, it's taught me alot!
Thanks!
Irlandés
P.S. Great thread, it's taught me alot!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 571
Likes: 0
From: Alderney or Lancashire UK
I got My PPL in an R22 and with it, the impression that the governor would keep RPM under control as long as the engine kept going. Such complacency! In training the governor was switched off occasionally during straight and level and gentle turns to make sure I could do it. I can't recall take offs or landings without it.
I then started flying aircraft with no governor and sometimes no correlator either. This instils an awesome sense of RPM awareness and I now find that when flying Robinsons, one eye on the tacho is truly automatic.
I feel that the governor - because it is so good- insulates us from the realities of how the power output is changing - which is a lot during lift, hover and transition. If your first experience of this, with no governor, is unexpected then it is not surprising that things go wrong. According to my Enstrom instructor, pilots trained in R22s have 'great difficulty' with RPM control when converting to a non governed machine. I certainly did.
It is easy to turn a R22 into a non governed aircraft - without even realising as witnessed by Whirlybird and Nr Fairy.
The unexpected makes it even more difficult to deal with.
We know of two aircraft damaged in this way and it is only good fortune that I did not do the same.
It would seem that take off with no governor is likely to damage the aircraft. Is this an argument for more or better training without the governor or just a better warning system for flight with it switched off? Maybe it should be connected to the rotor horn. That would get your attention to the right dial!
A better warning system would have saved both our friends money and heartache. How about it Frank?
(does he read this???)
I then started flying aircraft with no governor and sometimes no correlator either. This instils an awesome sense of RPM awareness and I now find that when flying Robinsons, one eye on the tacho is truly automatic.
I feel that the governor - because it is so good- insulates us from the realities of how the power output is changing - which is a lot during lift, hover and transition. If your first experience of this, with no governor, is unexpected then it is not surprising that things go wrong. According to my Enstrom instructor, pilots trained in R22s have 'great difficulty' with RPM control when converting to a non governed machine. I certainly did.
It is easy to turn a R22 into a non governed aircraft - without even realising as witnessed by Whirlybird and Nr Fairy.
The unexpected makes it even more difficult to deal with.
We know of two aircraft damaged in this way and it is only good fortune that I did not do the same.
It would seem that take off with no governor is likely to damage the aircraft. Is this an argument for more or better training without the governor or just a better warning system for flight with it switched off? Maybe it should be connected to the rotor horn. That would get your attention to the right dial!
A better warning system would have saved both our friends money and heartache. How about it Frank?
(does he read this???)
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Gaseous,
I don't know if Frank reads this, but I do know that most of what you talk about has been discussed, some of it since my incident. At the time I mentioned to Dick Sanford that I'd twice turned off the governor with my sleeve, the first time as a student on my first solo cross country. At the time I didn't realise what had happened, only saw the light come on, and nearly panicked (My first instructor's response to questions about flying without the governor had been: "Don't worry, you don't need to; they never go wrong". Can you believe that?). Anyway, Dick asked me to send MORs concerning all three incidents to the CAA, mentioning it was at his request, which I did. Apparently there had been a lot of R22 governor related problems; he was concerned about it, but the CAA were saying nothing had ever been reported to them. My reports were afterwards summarised in Gasil. And when flying with Dick, he mentioned that there had been discussions in the helicopter instructing world about what to do - have a check list with a marker so you were less likely to miss something out, a more obvious light, more governor-off training? I understand that since then the R22 safety course has had more governor-off training; I had some, but obviously not enough.
But yes, there is definitely a problem here.
I don't know if Frank reads this, but I do know that most of what you talk about has been discussed, some of it since my incident. At the time I mentioned to Dick Sanford that I'd twice turned off the governor with my sleeve, the first time as a student on my first solo cross country.
At the time I didn't realise what had happened, only saw the light come on, and nearly panicked (My first instructor's response to questions about flying without the governor had been: "Don't worry, you don't need to; they never go wrong". Can you believe that?). Anyway, Dick asked me to send MORs concerning all three incidents to the CAA, mentioning it was at his request, which I did. Apparently there had been a lot of R22 governor related problems; he was concerned about it, but the CAA were saying nothing had ever been reported to them. My reports were afterwards summarised in Gasil. And when flying with Dick, he mentioned that there had been discussions in the helicopter instructing world about what to do - have a check list with a marker so you were less likely to miss something out, a more obvious light, more governor-off training? I understand that since then the R22 safety course has had more governor-off training; I had some, but obviously not enough.But yes, there is definitely a problem here.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2,018
Likes: 73
From: Pewsey, UK
Whirly :
Can you tell me how I can go about getting this incident reported in GASIL ? Although lots of people here read it, I'm sure there's at least one or two R22 pilots in the UK who don't PPRuNe.
Can you tell me how I can go about getting this incident reported in GASIL ? Although lots of people here read it, I'm sure there's at least one or two R22 pilots in the UK who don't PPRuNe.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
From: Northern England
When I were lad (etc)........
Most pilots among rotorheads will remember R22s without governors.
We were lucky... corellators weren't available on early helicopters too, so it was another dimension that you had to keep an eye (or more importantly, a subconscious ear) on. I found that flyng a Bell47 concentrated the mind on rpm control.
Governors can hide carb icing, as they can open the throttle to keep rpm up without the pilot noticing, and the rpm only drops once max throttle is reached, at which point there is a real problem.
We were lucky... corellators weren't available on early helicopters too, so it was another dimension that you had to keep an eye (or more importantly, a subconscious ear) on. I found that flyng a Bell47 concentrated the mind on rpm control.
Governors can hide carb icing, as they can open the throttle to keep rpm up without the pilot noticing, and the rpm only drops once max throttle is reached, at which point there is a real problem.
PPRuNe Enigma
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
Governors can hide carb icing
Good point Draco - you are dead right, this is another potential shortcoming of relying on the governor.
So remember to monitor both RPM and MAP - if the manifold pressure is rising for no apparent reason that could be a clue something is wrong.
When I trained, governors had just been introduced and the system at that time was I was not allowed to use the governor until completing all my training: even the GFT was done with governor off.
So remember to monitor both RPM and MAP - if the manifold pressure is rising for no apparent reason that could be a clue something is wrong.
When I trained, governors had just been introduced and the system at that time was I was not allowed to use the governor until completing all my training: even the GFT was done with governor off.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 166
Likes: 0
Whirly?
Only Ł12,000 worth of damage from your Governor adventures, I can top that one! A couple of years ago one of our students had just reached the solo stage. He was a very rich man, with lots of cars who would have gone on to do at least a 206 conversion and doubtless bought himself a machine. We all liked him very much! He was also very elegant sartorially, always turning up to fly in nice expensive clothes. And a lovely pair of yellow kid leather gloves. But I digress.
Come the day of the solo, the instructor took him round a couple of times, and decided he was happy with his performance. Gave him his final brief, told him to enjoy it, and the student was off around the circuit. The circuit looked good, but he came in a bit too fast, and the tail wobbled a bit as he pulled the power in. However, he caught it, and the R22 stabilised for a moment before descending, drifting sideways, catching the skid and rolling over. Oops.
Happily the student was OK, but the R22 was a complete write-off. There then followed the amusing sight of three (yes 3) ambulances turning up, as the airfield was on the corner of three different ambulance areas, and they all wanted the business. The instructor wisely found out which hospitals the ambulances would be going to before choosing the one which would drop them both off closest to home-base! (not the DIY suprstore)
So, where does the governor come in? Remember the gloves? And the cars? Well they weren't flying gloves, but very expensive driving gloves. And they had a shiny little "D"-ring on one glove, and a shiny little spring clip on the other so you could clip them together when not in use. As the student pushed the carb heat in at the end of the approach and then transferred his hand to the collective, the clip caught the governor and turned it off. The governor light illuminated, and the student was so distracted by wondering what the hell this light was doing on, that he forgot to fly the heli.
So, a few years on, and what are they doing now?
The helicopter. The only good thing to come out of this was that we now have a real R22 in the briefing room which we plonk the punters in whilst giving the trial lesson briefings. (We actually describe it as a "static simulator", which has a more customer-friendly ring than "crashed helicopter")
The student went straight back into the air, but about 5 hours later decided he wasn't enjoying it and packed in, taking all his lovely money with him. Sad.
The instructor is now flying holiday planks.
I'm still here, watching, listening and (hopefully) learning.
ST
Only Ł12,000 worth of damage from your Governor adventures, I can top that one! A couple of years ago one of our students had just reached the solo stage. He was a very rich man, with lots of cars who would have gone on to do at least a 206 conversion and doubtless bought himself a machine. We all liked him very much! He was also very elegant sartorially, always turning up to fly in nice expensive clothes. And a lovely pair of yellow kid leather gloves. But I digress.
Come the day of the solo, the instructor took him round a couple of times, and decided he was happy with his performance. Gave him his final brief, told him to enjoy it, and the student was off around the circuit. The circuit looked good, but he came in a bit too fast, and the tail wobbled a bit as he pulled the power in. However, he caught it, and the R22 stabilised for a moment before descending, drifting sideways, catching the skid and rolling over. Oops.
Happily the student was OK, but the R22 was a complete write-off. There then followed the amusing sight of three (yes 3) ambulances turning up, as the airfield was on the corner of three different ambulance areas, and they all wanted the business. The instructor wisely found out which hospitals the ambulances would be going to before choosing the one which would drop them both off closest to home-base! (not the DIY suprstore)
So, where does the governor come in? Remember the gloves? And the cars? Well they weren't flying gloves, but very expensive driving gloves. And they had a shiny little "D"-ring on one glove, and a shiny little spring clip on the other so you could clip them together when not in use. As the student pushed the carb heat in at the end of the approach and then transferred his hand to the collective, the clip caught the governor and turned it off. The governor light illuminated, and the student was so distracted by wondering what the hell this light was doing on, that he forgot to fly the heli.
So, a few years on, and what are they doing now?
The helicopter. The only good thing to come out of this was that we now have a real R22 in the briefing room which we plonk the punters in whilst giving the trial lesson briefings. (We actually describe it as a "static simulator", which has a more customer-friendly ring than "crashed helicopter")
The student went straight back into the air, but about 5 hours later decided he wasn't enjoying it and packed in, taking all his lovely money with him. Sad.
The instructor is now flying holiday planks.
I'm still here, watching, listening and (hopefully) learning.
ST
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Nr Fairy,
I don't know exactly how to get something in Gasil, but I suggest you contact them and ask: 01293.573225, e-mail [email protected]. You might also want to get a form from CHIRP (Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme), on their website at www.chirp.co.uk, and send it to them.
I don't know exactly how to get something in Gasil, but I suggest you contact them and ask: 01293.573225, e-mail [email protected]. You might also want to get a form from CHIRP (Confidential Human Factors Incident Reporting Programme), on their website at www.chirp.co.uk, and send it to them.
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
From: 5 nM S of TNT, UK
Whirly
I flew one last week where the governor switch was recessed right back inside the end of the collective lever. In fact, when the time came to switch it on I could not find the thing at first and had to bend forward and look at the end of the lever to see if there was one there. It was the normal small toggle switch, but recessed in so that only the very tip of it protruded past the end of the lever.
I don't know if this is a modification, but I have not seen it before on any of the other R22s that I have flown.
Incidentally, I think that in the POH it says that flight with the governor off is prohibited except for training. So that should put people off practising it.
I flew one last week where the governor switch was recessed right back inside the end of the collective lever. In fact, when the time came to switch it on I could not find the thing at first and had to bend forward and look at the end of the lever to see if there was one there. It was the normal small toggle switch, but recessed in so that only the very tip of it protruded past the end of the lever.
I don't know if this is a modification, but I have not seen it before on any of the other R22s that I have flown.
Incidentally, I think that in the POH it says that flight with the governor off is prohibited except for training. So that should put people off practising it.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
Likes: 0
From: UK
It is open to anyone to make a voluntary MOR report, if they consider the incident worth reporting. I think both of the incidents mentioned above would be useful reports. If an incident is MOR'ed it very often also gets reported in GASIL etc. too.
I remember when I was instructing on the R22 and the governor came in - we had lots of discussions about what was the best way to teach. I think we were pretty sure that the addition of the governor would reduce accidents when pilots were distracted from RRPM control going into confined areas, for example. However, we wanted to teach throttle-twisting during the PPL course, as we were sure it ought to be part of a pilot's tool bag.
Initially, there were two schools of thought:
1. You should leave the governor off for all/most of the dual flying, thereby giving the student lots of non-governor experience. Put the governor ON for solo flying to give that added degree of protection when the stude was off by himself.
2. Fly it generally with the governor ON, with some governor OFF training.
The POH changes more or less forced us down route 2. I don't do R22 training anymore (unfortunately), but I imagine that the amount of governor-off training will be much reduced now - at least partly because most R22 instructors will not be as familiar/comfortable as those who learnt without a governor.
However, I am not sure that this is quite the same as a governor being inadvertently left off/turned off. Pre and After take-off checks and a gentle lift into the hover are more likely to catch these, aren't they??
I remember when I was instructing on the R22 and the governor came in - we had lots of discussions about what was the best way to teach. I think we were pretty sure that the addition of the governor would reduce accidents when pilots were distracted from RRPM control going into confined areas, for example. However, we wanted to teach throttle-twisting during the PPL course, as we were sure it ought to be part of a pilot's tool bag.
Initially, there were two schools of thought:
1. You should leave the governor off for all/most of the dual flying, thereby giving the student lots of non-governor experience. Put the governor ON for solo flying to give that added degree of protection when the stude was off by himself.
2. Fly it generally with the governor ON, with some governor OFF training.
The POH changes more or less forced us down route 2. I don't do R22 training anymore (unfortunately), but I imagine that the amount of governor-off training will be much reduced now - at least partly because most R22 instructors will not be as familiar/comfortable as those who learnt without a governor.
However, I am not sure that this is quite the same as a governor being inadvertently left off/turned off. Pre and After take-off checks and a gentle lift into the hover are more likely to catch these, aren't they??
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
From:
Hi All,
First congrats to Whirly for being brave enough to post.
Wish you could name the school that treated you so badly then we could all avoid them....
It good that we can learn from other peoples' 'mistakes' and that no one was hurt.
Personally I never flown tired or stressed but have become bored or changed my mind to thinking about other things and then my concentration drops and that's not just when I m flying either.
The nearest I ve come to doing damage was when I was flying, with pax, was taking off with a partly misted screen at night! The screen wouldn't clear with the heater, (in an R22), and I was 2nd in a flight of 2 ships. I didn't want to lose the leader as it was an airfield I d only flown into once before and in day light. Stuopidly I thought the forward motion would ais the complete demisting. Unfortunately I misjudged the height and caught a skid on the ground. Large amount of collective resolved the problem by which time the screen had cleared and we were able to proceed.
VERY shaken, and very quiet for return to base!
How many lessons have I learnt? BL**DY LOTS!!!!
And a good few hours later I still can't believe how stupid I was.
On a lighter note I drank about as much rum that night as I will at the Gatbash!!!!!!
First congrats to Whirly for being brave enough to post.
Wish you could name the school that treated you so badly then we could all avoid them....
It good that we can learn from other peoples' 'mistakes' and that no one was hurt.
Personally I never flown tired or stressed but have become bored or changed my mind to thinking about other things and then my concentration drops and that's not just when I m flying either.
The nearest I ve come to doing damage was when I was flying, with pax, was taking off with a partly misted screen at night! The screen wouldn't clear with the heater, (in an R22), and I was 2nd in a flight of 2 ships. I didn't want to lose the leader as it was an airfield I d only flown into once before and in day light. Stuopidly I thought the forward motion would ais the complete demisting. Unfortunately I misjudged the height and caught a skid on the ground. Large amount of collective resolved the problem by which time the screen had cleared and we were able to proceed.
VERY shaken, and very quiet for return to base!
How many lessons have I learnt? BL**DY LOTS!!!!
And a good few hours later I still can't believe how stupid I was.
On a lighter note I drank about as much rum that night as I will at the Gatbash!!!!!!
The Original Whirly
Joined: Feb 1999
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
Posts: 4,327
Likes: 2
From: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
pilotwolf,
I did actually name the airfield that school operates from though.
But if anyone wants the name of the school, feel free to e-mail me. It's just that I didn't post this in order to put down the school, but so that people could perhaps learn something from what happened to me.
I did actually name the airfield that school operates from though.
But if anyone wants the name of the school, feel free to e-mail me. It's just that I didn't post this in order to put down the school, but so that people could perhaps learn something from what happened to me.
Helicopter Pilots Get It Up Quicker
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 885
Likes: 0
From:
Hi Whirly!
I know you did post airfield but not too familar with that area but guess there can't be too many heli ops from there.
Appreachiate your reasons for not naming school.
I know you did post airfield but not too familar with that area but guess there can't be too many heli ops from there.
Appreachiate your reasons for not naming school.
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
From: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
Until someone posted it I hadn't thought the gov switch might be in a different position on some birds. All of ours are recessed on the end of the collective as muffin indicated...
Of course the reason the robbie received a gov in the first place was pilot innatention to RPM during flight. Was a simple fix to perform. I'm one who flew one a couple of times without one back then, but then had to give up the training due to lack of funds.
There really is no DANGER of flying the heli with it off at all, and all those who flew it prior to the gov being introduced would agree with me on that one, you just have to manage that RPM.
Irlandés,
Certainly you have apoint on 100% and moving it, however if you do not jat it at 100%, with frictions on it is safe to do, only takes a minute or so. The reduction to 75% RPM for the mag checks, according to RHC itself was more for noise reduction to those around you than the issue of possibly moving the cyclic at 100%. Since our operations are on our own ramp area, we still do it at 100%.
Of course the reason the robbie received a gov in the first place was pilot innatention to RPM during flight. Was a simple fix to perform. I'm one who flew one a couple of times without one back then, but then had to give up the training due to lack of funds.
There really is no DANGER of flying the heli with it off at all, and all those who flew it prior to the gov being introduced would agree with me on that one, you just have to manage that RPM.
Irlandés,
Certainly you have apoint on 100% and moving it, however if you do not jat it at 100%, with frictions on it is safe to do, only takes a minute or so. The reduction to 75% RPM for the mag checks, according to RHC itself was more for noise reduction to those around you than the issue of possibly moving the cyclic at 100%. Since our operations are on our own ramp area, we still do it at 100%.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: Caribbean
It's been a while since I flew Robinsons
but once I had a governor failure in a 44.
Switched it off, flew it back to base, where the lads worked on it. Now I could be mistaken here, but if I remember rightly,it turned out to be a mag problem. Could anyone verify that?
but once I had a governor failure in a 44.
Switched it off, flew it back to base, where the lads worked on it. Now I could be mistaken here, but if I remember rightly,it turned out to be a mag problem. Could anyone verify that?