SAR: Search & Rescue Ops
Guest
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And pigs can fly. What if it's only an excercise to bring the rates for standby vessels down; 10.000 a day I'm led to believe.
Figure a Tiger strapped to a northsea deck for 365 days a year; left on it's own in an Aberdeen hangar for a weekend it doesn't start on a monday; so forget about (s) crewing; as soon as the rates go down the accountants will shelve the ambitious project.
Figure a Tiger strapped to a northsea deck for 365 days a year; left on it's own in an Aberdeen hangar for a weekend it doesn't start on a monday; so forget about (s) crewing; as soon as the rates go down the accountants will shelve the ambitious project.
Guest
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Houdini is quite correct, it's turned in to bloody department accountants saving money in their little empires.
As far as all this winging going on about hovering over the sea at night, I wouldn't particularly want to do it if I was over there, but if they paid me enough, I do have a license to do it. Show me the money oil companies!
Yet again it comes down to our steely management teams to get a good rate for this offshore contract, and stop the freebies that the oil companies have had in the last few years!
L
As far as all this winging going on about hovering over the sea at night, I wouldn't particularly want to do it if I was over there, but if they paid me enough, I do have a license to do it. Show me the money oil companies!
Yet again it comes down to our steely management teams to get a good rate for this offshore contract, and stop the freebies that the oil companies have had in the last few years!
L
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Slightly off topic I know, but I think the person whose friend was nearly drowned in the BHL S-61N has gots his facts slightly wrong. I believe that the reason that the aircraft ditched was because the pilot flying did not trust the wonderful 4-axis autopilot and was trying to hover on calm water at night in hazy conditions. Perhaps if that pilot had used the kit, the aircraft would not have ditched.
It's funny, but the RAF Sea King that picked up the crew used its' auto-hover without any problems and rescued the S-61 crew.
It's funny, but the RAF Sea King that picked up the crew used its' auto-hover without any problems and rescued the S-61 crew.
Guest
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The items about night over water hovering are all correct, however, even the newest of pilots in RAF SAR has to be able to maintain a reasonable manual instrument hover at night. This skill is practiced frequently and is an aspect of a pilot's annual check.
Guest
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As the Captain of the RAF Seaking which rescued the Stornaway Bristow crew I can perhaps give the true facts about the rescue!
On reaching the incident the ditched crew were in a multi-seat dinghy. The wind was offshore and very variable in direction due to the hills. The sea state was also confused. We descended into an autohover close to the dinghy and briefed for a highline auto hover-trim recovery of the 4 man crew. The winch operator immediately reported problems with the auto trim (which feeds an error signal to the doppler to move the a/c) and I took back control. The doppler kept unlocking due to the confusing sea state which gave me problems in maintaining an accurate hover. I therefore disengaged the auto hover and flew a manual hover, successfully recovering the crew. We then flew them to Stornaway where a very relieved ex-RAF winchman told his story of being trapped in the tail. He was operating the FLIR at the time of the inadvertant ditching. The coupled system in the Seaking was good most of the time but it was/is a simplex system. All RAF SAR captains had to demonstrate they could night hover in total manual control every year and would quite often have to use that skill on real SAROPS. The skill of manual night hovering will have to be taught and practised if the BP SAR helicopters are to have the ability to react in all weathers. By the way the whiskey that Bristows sent was very enjoyable!!
On reaching the incident the ditched crew were in a multi-seat dinghy. The wind was offshore and very variable in direction due to the hills. The sea state was also confused. We descended into an autohover close to the dinghy and briefed for a highline auto hover-trim recovery of the 4 man crew. The winch operator immediately reported problems with the auto trim (which feeds an error signal to the doppler to move the a/c) and I took back control. The doppler kept unlocking due to the confusing sea state which gave me problems in maintaining an accurate hover. I therefore disengaged the auto hover and flew a manual hover, successfully recovering the crew. We then flew them to Stornaway where a very relieved ex-RAF winchman told his story of being trapped in the tail. He was operating the FLIR at the time of the inadvertant ditching. The coupled system in the Seaking was good most of the time but it was/is a simplex system. All RAF SAR captains had to demonstrate they could night hover in total manual control every year and would quite often have to use that skill on real SAROPS. The skill of manual night hovering will have to be taught and practised if the BP SAR helicopters are to have the ability to react in all weathers. By the way the whiskey that Bristows sent was very enjoyable!!
Guest
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The 332L is stronger than you think. I was offshore in the 40s for about 5 months with one and while we had some problems with blade sail it held up well. You have to have one greenie and one A+C engineer with you but as it was your a/c it was easier to keep on top of snags as they arose. The decks chosen for the SAR helio will have to be carefully selected to give some measure of shelter . I.e 40s OK especially from a SW wind Montrose not so good as the helideck sits right on top of the rig with no shelter. The BP idea is very good so long as the right decks are chosen and the a/c and crews are prepared and trained properly for the task.
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Aerospit quite correct, the pilot involved didn’t use his autopilot. With no intention to denigrate the Captain involved, he had an apparently impeccable background; Ex - RAF, QHI and CFS Instructor!. True enough, both the Sea King & S-61N autopilots have limitations. But they will get you close enough to the hover to allow full, partial or manual hover ability once established. Hundreds of aircraft have been involved in CFIT, by some of the best aircrew since Icarus. Spatial disorientation, lack of situational awareness, and good old poor airmanship on a dark night or in poor weather can and still does catch out the best. There by good fortune go a few of you probably reading this. After all we are only ‘Human’. Back to the beginning of the thread: I think you will find the Commercial Operators with Ex-Mil/Civilian trained crews will manage without the ‘light blue’ coming to the rescue. One thing for sure, it won’t be on ‘Dream Team’ wages unfortunately.
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Its a long time since I did the Rig thing, but where are they going to park all these SAR machines? I dont recall decks capable of handling 2 Puma sized a/c or is my memory at fault?
[This message has been edited by Pinger (edited 11 June 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Pinger (edited 11 June 2000).]
Guest
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EFATO, news is the rigs concerned are 1 Thistle, deck on the SW corner, 2 Harding (almost the same), 3 North Everest, (on the West side) and 4 the West Sole, (can't comment, never been there), so far a 75% unsuccess rate on your comments rergarding the 40s!!
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Whilst not wishing to join in a military/civilian bun fight, I'd like to point out a few glaring omissions in a few of the previous replies with regard to the Senior Service.
"At least the "crabs" have a professional SAR school unlike the "wafu's" who have none and have even cut back their SAR commitments!"
Whilst it is true that the RN have no dedicated SAR School, this does not mean crews are not fully trained before taking up a SAR appointment. This is done on the Squadron by the QHI/QAI. The reason this is possible is because, unlike a significant number of RAF crews who are ab initio students, all RN SAR crews have completed a minimum of two and a half years, and normally far longer than that, on an ASW Squadron before being selected for SAR duties. As ASW warriors they spend an inordinate amount of time as their primary role, you guessed it, sitting in a hover in all weathers day and night.
To return to the civ/mil thread, I would not for one moment suggest that it is beyond the capabilities of any competent crew, civil or military, to carry out maritime SAR with the correct equipment and suiteable training. However I would caution against assuming that just because you have x thousand rotary hours and equipment is available which 'should' enable the a/c to establish a coupled hover in all weathers makes you an instant expert. I have known too many friends who are no longer with us who can bear testament to the extremely unforgiving environment within which maritime SAR is conducted.
Safe Flying.
"At least the "crabs" have a professional SAR school unlike the "wafu's" who have none and have even cut back their SAR commitments!"
Whilst it is true that the RN have no dedicated SAR School, this does not mean crews are not fully trained before taking up a SAR appointment. This is done on the Squadron by the QHI/QAI. The reason this is possible is because, unlike a significant number of RAF crews who are ab initio students, all RN SAR crews have completed a minimum of two and a half years, and normally far longer than that, on an ASW Squadron before being selected for SAR duties. As ASW warriors they spend an inordinate amount of time as their primary role, you guessed it, sitting in a hover in all weathers day and night.
To return to the civ/mil thread, I would not for one moment suggest that it is beyond the capabilities of any competent crew, civil or military, to carry out maritime SAR with the correct equipment and suiteable training. However I would caution against assuming that just because you have x thousand rotary hours and equipment is available which 'should' enable the a/c to establish a coupled hover in all weathers makes you an instant expert. I have known too many friends who are no longer with us who can bear testament to the extremely unforgiving environment within which maritime SAR is conducted.
Safe Flying.
Guest
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ABZ P&J.
MPs change copter stance
by Jeremy Cresswell and David Perry
Aberdeen MPs did an about-turn last night on BP Amoco's proposals for a helicopter-based North Sea safety regime.
Their change in stance followed a private briefing from senior company executives in the Commons and raises a huge questionmark over the future of a large part of the North-east's safety vessel fleet and 6,000 on and offshore jobs.
The city's three Labour MPs were told that besides platform-based helicopters, the proposed package would include:
New wrist-watch style personal locators with a 15-mile range, vastly improving the chance of speedy location of casualties in the water.
More comfortable new technology immersion clothing worn as underwear, increasing survival time dramatically.
Fast surface safety boats launchable from platforms.
Aberdeen Central MP Frank Doran said afterwards it had been an extraordinarily good meeting at which serious concerns raised with them by the Emergency Response Rescue Vessel Association (ERRVA) were discussed in detail.
He said the BP Amoco concept was at an early stage, with implementation two to three years away depending on further research, consultations and the approval of the Health and Safety Executive.
Mr Doran said workers off-platform often failed to wear full survival suits because they were so bulky as to make normal work difficult, requiring those who did fall overboard to be reached within four minutes. New technology, which is expected on the market in August, would enable them to survive longer and be found faster, he said.
Mr Doran said: "The price is the potential removal of standby vessels in the North Sea with serious implications for jobs and vessel owners, but there is the possibility of significantly increasing safety offshore, and that has to be the priority."
Aberdeen South MP Anne Begg said MPs had been able to hear the other side of the story for the first time and believe that if what BP Amoco proposed came to fruition and everything worked as planned, it would hopefully lead to increased safety.
She said safety experts believed improvements on platforms made another Piper Alpha disaster an unreasonable possibility and that in any event, all platforms now had refuges from which rescues would more easily be performed by helicopters than by boats.
Miss Begg said: "You cannot hold back advances in safety just to protect jobs. But it is our responsibility to make sure everyone affected is able to redeploy – perhaps to manning platform-launched boats – or be retrained for other jobs."
Aberdeen North MP Malcolm Savidge called for the new equipment to be also adopted by fishermen. "The new technology clothing and locators could lead to huge improvements in safety if they were adopted by the fishing fleet."
North Sea trade unions broadly welcomed BP's initiative, which came to light at the end of last month. Since then, however, scepticism has set in, largely because of the concerns raised by ERRVA.
Last weekend, the organisation's chairman, Jeremy Daniel, said there were certain situations where a helicopter simply could not substitute for a ship. He said they could not:
Rescue survivors from beneath an offshore installation.
Operate in the vicinity of a gas cloud.
Easily provide back-up rescue capability if one is unavailable for whatever reason.
He said: "If these plans are adopted, the rescue cover offered will be significantly less than that currently
available."
Trade union OILC on Saturday called for a Scottish Parliamentary inquiry into the BP proposal, even though its leader Jake Molloy is, in principle, in favour of helicopter-based rescue systems. Other unions
are reserving final judgment pending further consultation.
MPs change copter stance
by Jeremy Cresswell and David Perry
Aberdeen MPs did an about-turn last night on BP Amoco's proposals for a helicopter-based North Sea safety regime.
Their change in stance followed a private briefing from senior company executives in the Commons and raises a huge questionmark over the future of a large part of the North-east's safety vessel fleet and 6,000 on and offshore jobs.
The city's three Labour MPs were told that besides platform-based helicopters, the proposed package would include:
New wrist-watch style personal locators with a 15-mile range, vastly improving the chance of speedy location of casualties in the water.
More comfortable new technology immersion clothing worn as underwear, increasing survival time dramatically.
Fast surface safety boats launchable from platforms.
Aberdeen Central MP Frank Doran said afterwards it had been an extraordinarily good meeting at which serious concerns raised with them by the Emergency Response Rescue Vessel Association (ERRVA) were discussed in detail.
He said the BP Amoco concept was at an early stage, with implementation two to three years away depending on further research, consultations and the approval of the Health and Safety Executive.
Mr Doran said workers off-platform often failed to wear full survival suits because they were so bulky as to make normal work difficult, requiring those who did fall overboard to be reached within four minutes. New technology, which is expected on the market in August, would enable them to survive longer and be found faster, he said.
Mr Doran said: "The price is the potential removal of standby vessels in the North Sea with serious implications for jobs and vessel owners, but there is the possibility of significantly increasing safety offshore, and that has to be the priority."
Aberdeen South MP Anne Begg said MPs had been able to hear the other side of the story for the first time and believe that if what BP Amoco proposed came to fruition and everything worked as planned, it would hopefully lead to increased safety.
She said safety experts believed improvements on platforms made another Piper Alpha disaster an unreasonable possibility and that in any event, all platforms now had refuges from which rescues would more easily be performed by helicopters than by boats.
Miss Begg said: "You cannot hold back advances in safety just to protect jobs. But it is our responsibility to make sure everyone affected is able to redeploy – perhaps to manning platform-launched boats – or be retrained for other jobs."
Aberdeen North MP Malcolm Savidge called for the new equipment to be also adopted by fishermen. "The new technology clothing and locators could lead to huge improvements in safety if they were adopted by the fishing fleet."
North Sea trade unions broadly welcomed BP's initiative, which came to light at the end of last month. Since then, however, scepticism has set in, largely because of the concerns raised by ERRVA.
Last weekend, the organisation's chairman, Jeremy Daniel, said there were certain situations where a helicopter simply could not substitute for a ship. He said they could not:
Rescue survivors from beneath an offshore installation.
Operate in the vicinity of a gas cloud.
Easily provide back-up rescue capability if one is unavailable for whatever reason.
He said: "If these plans are adopted, the rescue cover offered will be significantly less than that currently
available."
Trade union OILC on Saturday called for a Scottish Parliamentary inquiry into the BP proposal, even though its leader Jake Molloy is, in principle, in favour of helicopter-based rescue systems. Other unions
are reserving final judgment pending further consultation.
Guest
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Oh well, you probably can put this plan to bed and continue with the preparations to join an airline!
ABZ P&J 14 July 2000
MPs call a halt on oilrig safety switch
MPs told oil giant BP Amoco last night to halt plans to replace stand-by boats with helicopters, pending industry-wide talks on North Sea safety.
The united front was established at a meeting at Westminster of MPs in favour of considering the proposals, those backing safety boats, boat operators and the main offshore unions.
After the near two-hour meeting, Inter-Union Offshore Oil Committee (IUOOC) secretary Rab Wilson said: "There were forcible arguments on the safety issue." It had been a very positive meeting.
Mr Wilson denied the unions were totally opposed to the use of helicopters, claiming there could be instances where they were better and others where boats were the answer.
He said: "One positive move would be for the company to cease their helicopter rescue plans so we can have an industry-wide discussion about safety offshore."
Aberdeen North Labour MP Frank Doran, who convened the meeting, said : "There was unanimity that BP Amoco's proposals will affect the whole of the North Sea oil and gas industry.
"It is not appropriate for such an important proposed development in offshore safety to be handled by one company alone. The whole process should be opened up and be transparent."
He said there was agreement at the meeting to approach ministers and the Health and Safety Executive, adding: "The aim is for BP Amoco to open up this whole process and make the research they are doing available."
Western Isles Labour MP Calum Macdonald, who broke ranks earlier to demand the retention of safety vessels, confirmed the agreement for an industry-wide approach. He said: "If BP's proposals go forward it will affect other oil companies as well. We are writing to encourage them to engage in these discussions and will ask the Government to ask the company to do so."
Aberdeen South Labour MP Anne Begg said: "I have a number of constituents working offshore. My first concern is not just upholding the existing safety regime, but improving on it.
"That may mean a mix of helicopters and safety boats – the answer may not lie with just one or the other."
Falkirk East Labour MP Michael Connarty said: "There was concern on my part that BP have not thought this through."
David Hekelaar, managing director of Viking Stand-by, with 28 boats and 600 employees, said: "I am pleased that the MPs and the IUOOC representatives have taken the view that this is an industry-wide problem and not just a BP Amoco issue.
"I am hopeful that an acceptable solution will be found where the best method of providing offshore safety is established."
Jeremy Daniel, chairman of the Emergency Rescue Vessels Association, said he was "delighted at the unanimity of view that there has been – that before we can start building the right safety structure we have to call a halt to the plans which BP Amoco are making on their own".
BP Amoco's proposals involve replacing 17 stand-by vessels with four helicopters offshore and two onshore, improved survival underwear and wrist-watch size personal radio locators and platform-launched fast rescue boats.
The fear was other companies would follow, putting the future of 115 boats and 6,000 staff at risk.
ABZ P&J 14 July 2000
MPs call a halt on oilrig safety switch
MPs told oil giant BP Amoco last night to halt plans to replace stand-by boats with helicopters, pending industry-wide talks on North Sea safety.
The united front was established at a meeting at Westminster of MPs in favour of considering the proposals, those backing safety boats, boat operators and the main offshore unions.
After the near two-hour meeting, Inter-Union Offshore Oil Committee (IUOOC) secretary Rab Wilson said: "There were forcible arguments on the safety issue." It had been a very positive meeting.
Mr Wilson denied the unions were totally opposed to the use of helicopters, claiming there could be instances where they were better and others where boats were the answer.
He said: "One positive move would be for the company to cease their helicopter rescue plans so we can have an industry-wide discussion about safety offshore."
Aberdeen North Labour MP Frank Doran, who convened the meeting, said : "There was unanimity that BP Amoco's proposals will affect the whole of the North Sea oil and gas industry.
"It is not appropriate for such an important proposed development in offshore safety to be handled by one company alone. The whole process should be opened up and be transparent."
He said there was agreement at the meeting to approach ministers and the Health and Safety Executive, adding: "The aim is for BP Amoco to open up this whole process and make the research they are doing available."
Western Isles Labour MP Calum Macdonald, who broke ranks earlier to demand the retention of safety vessels, confirmed the agreement for an industry-wide approach. He said: "If BP's proposals go forward it will affect other oil companies as well. We are writing to encourage them to engage in these discussions and will ask the Government to ask the company to do so."
Aberdeen South Labour MP Anne Begg said: "I have a number of constituents working offshore. My first concern is not just upholding the existing safety regime, but improving on it.
"That may mean a mix of helicopters and safety boats – the answer may not lie with just one or the other."
Falkirk East Labour MP Michael Connarty said: "There was concern on my part that BP have not thought this through."
David Hekelaar, managing director of Viking Stand-by, with 28 boats and 600 employees, said: "I am pleased that the MPs and the IUOOC representatives have taken the view that this is an industry-wide problem and not just a BP Amoco issue.
"I am hopeful that an acceptable solution will be found where the best method of providing offshore safety is established."
Jeremy Daniel, chairman of the Emergency Rescue Vessels Association, said he was "delighted at the unanimity of view that there has been – that before we can start building the right safety structure we have to call a halt to the plans which BP Amoco are making on their own".
BP Amoco's proposals involve replacing 17 stand-by vessels with four helicopters offshore and two onshore, improved survival underwear and wrist-watch size personal radio locators and platform-launched fast rescue boats.
The fear was other companies would follow, putting the future of 115 boats and 6,000 staff at risk.
Guest
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Although MPs have said this the offshore workforce is generally in favour of offshore based SAR helios as the standby boats only cover the immediate rig area and provide no viable cover should a passenger helio ditch more than 15nms from their rig. Also in sea states above 30kts and at night the SAR helio is more effective than a boat. The only advantage a boat perhaps has is to inform an OIM (rig manager) of fire damage to his rig should the unthinkable happen and a rig catch fire and everybody is confined to the "safe refuge". I would like to see the deployment of the SAR helios plus a "super" boat responsible for a cluster of rigs. (remember the ESV Iolair!!)
Guest
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The SAR helicopter is the safest way to pick people out of the water. The standby boat my give the impression of being there on hand all the time but it is a nonsense to think you could be safely picked out of the water at night in a 30+kt wind and associated sea state by a safety boat. Bring on the SAR helicopters ASAP. As far as crews goes there are a few of us waiting the call to do the professional job that is needed to improve safety for the boys offshore.