AS350 Astar / AS355 Twinstar [Archive Copy]
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Aser...
Rin: In basic form it's multiplying the amount of landings you make by a factor...The minimum factor being 2 ...This accounts for the high power setting for departure and arrival of a specific flight...These numbers are entered (should be) into the a/c maintenance record by the engineers and become part of timed life/RIN components histories...
Most components have a timed life as you know, this life being predicated on normal usage...If the mission requirement is, for example: logging or firefighting that gives you a demand for 15 to 60 high power events per hour, each demanding around the same requirements as a landing, but with no touchdown...The machine has worked a lot harder than say, charter ops...
So the maintenance dept will (should) factor each flight hour to simulate the additional WORK the a/c has done with all the additional power cycles...
The factor used , is variable around the world from my experience, and can be a point of serious contention between pilots and management
if you work the machines hard. Just because a component has a timed life of X hours in normal use (what's normal?) But if your mission requirement calls for 70 high/low power events per hour...The component shouldn't be expected to last the same time as if it had a comfortable 2 events per hour...
As a good example, the B747 shuttles that were tried in the LA basin years ago, failed in part from the 3 cycles (x2) per hour of RIN put on airframes designed for landings every 5.5 hours or so (that was the rumor at the time)
Hope this makes sense?
Rin: In basic form it's multiplying the amount of landings you make by a factor...The minimum factor being 2 ...This accounts for the high power setting for departure and arrival of a specific flight...These numbers are entered (should be) into the a/c maintenance record by the engineers and become part of timed life/RIN components histories...
Most components have a timed life as you know, this life being predicated on normal usage...If the mission requirement is, for example: logging or firefighting that gives you a demand for 15 to 60 high power events per hour, each demanding around the same requirements as a landing, but with no touchdown...The machine has worked a lot harder than say, charter ops...
So the maintenance dept will (should) factor each flight hour to simulate the additional WORK the a/c has done with all the additional power cycles...
The factor used , is variable around the world from my experience, and can be a point of serious contention between pilots and management
if you work the machines hard. Just because a component has a timed life of X hours in normal use (what's normal?) But if your mission requirement calls for 70 high/low power events per hour...The component shouldn't be expected to last the same time as if it had a comfortable 2 events per hour...
As a good example, the B747 shuttles that were tried in the LA basin years ago, failed in part from the 3 cycles (x2) per hour of RIN put on airframes designed for landings every 5.5 hours or so (that was the rumor at the time)
Hope this makes sense?
I have said earlier in the thread that I believe jack stall to be a negative in the 350 series, but less so than say the left pedal issues of the UH-1 series, the LTE issues apparent in the B206, teetering heads, etc etc etc. The aircraft will continue to exhibit these issues unless engineered out - ie unless big bucks spent. In the mean time, we have to fall back on warnings and training.
It is apparent from this thread that endorsement training is quite inadequate. I make that claim based on the amount of qualified AS350 pilots either hearing about jack stall, or finding out about recovery techniques for the first time here on this thread. Limitations of particular airframe types need to be demonstrated and explored during any type rating. Particualr recovery techniques for that airframe, things to avoid, and gotchas are all high on the list of MINIMUM things you need to cover in a type rating, yet that doesn't seem to be a prevalent theme. For example:
I am suprised that there are AS350 pilots out there that have not seen jack stall during type ratings.
Do we have a training issue in the industry?
It is apparent from this thread that endorsement training is quite inadequate. I make that claim based on the amount of qualified AS350 pilots either hearing about jack stall, or finding out about recovery techniques for the first time here on this thread. Limitations of particular airframe types need to be demonstrated and explored during any type rating. Particualr recovery techniques for that airframe, things to avoid, and gotchas are all high on the list of MINIMUM things you need to cover in a type rating, yet that doesn't seem to be a prevalent theme. For example:
Several pilots quoted in the report theorized Mezaki may have encountered the "jack-stall" phenomenon.
In 2000, another pilot dove into the canyon at about 120 knots. He lost control of the helicopter and the rotor nearly hit the side of the canyon. He thought he was going to die and gave up steering, which ironically returned the controls to normal.
In 2000, another pilot dove into the canyon at about 120 knots. He lost control of the helicopter and the rotor nearly hit the side of the canyon. He thought he was going to die and gave up steering, which ironically returned the controls to normal.
Do we have a training issue in the industry?
Do we have a training issue in the industry?
When is Training for Safety Not Enough?
Checked it? I posted on it! (Borrowed from a more popular expression!).
Fair enough, design should change - show me the money. But lets be realistic, it aint gonna. Especially for such a straight forward issue that occurs only during the harshest flying, is easily recognisable, and has a simple recovery technique. Easy to demonstrate and easy to train for.
Lets reserve the redisgn dollar for much bigger killers that are complex - like CFIT.
Fair enough, design should change - show me the money. But lets be realistic, it aint gonna. Especially for such a straight forward issue that occurs only during the harshest flying, is easily recognisable, and has a simple recovery technique. Easy to demonstrate and easy to train for.
Lets reserve the redisgn dollar for much bigger killers that are complex - like CFIT.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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As far as I was aware, itwas/is a very widely known phenomena. It was shown in training, with the obvious details being;
a. what it is,
b. how you get into it,
c. how you get out of it.
Generally speaking it requires a heavy hand to get into it, albeit that DA can obviously have a negative affect.
Main problem was encountering at low level, ie rolling and applying power. The techniques of low flying were based around this.
From memory the Ba and later models with the larger chord blades and extra tab on the tail rotore blades did not make life any better !! This was also as the hyd pump and servos were not upgraded from the B model.
Basically it aerodynamic loading past the ability of the servo's to control.
God knows what fatigue affects there is/was, but after having done it and taught it for many years, I haven't seen any negative fatigue effects.
Now vortex ring is a different topic and the AS350, but I won't start on that one................
a. what it is,
b. how you get into it,
c. how you get out of it.
Generally speaking it requires a heavy hand to get into it, albeit that DA can obviously have a negative affect.
Main problem was encountering at low level, ie rolling and applying power. The techniques of low flying were based around this.
From memory the Ba and later models with the larger chord blades and extra tab on the tail rotore blades did not make life any better !! This was also as the hyd pump and servos were not upgraded from the B model.
Basically it aerodynamic loading past the ability of the servo's to control.
God knows what fatigue affects there is/was, but after having done it and taught it for many years, I haven't seen any negative fatigue effects.
Now vortex ring is a different topic and the AS350, but I won't start on that one................
I have flown mine for the last 3 to 4 years and have never experienced Jack Stall !! Maybe if you keep your aerobatics for when you are not at MAU that helps, certainly you can throw it around as much and more , than any other i have flown. As for vortex, in mine it is hard to get into that state even when trying to demo ! Being fair if you compared it to Gazelle,206,EC120 etc it comes out well on top in most areas.
Join Date: Apr 2006
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AS 355 F1/F2
Hello all, I'm looking for any useful operational and maintenance info./issues regarding the F series as operated in a VFR utility configuration.
ie: Performance, Engine(s)/component times actual vs. life.
Plus any other experience about type anyone cares to pass along,
Cheers,
Ken
ie: Performance, Engine(s)/component times actual vs. life.
Plus any other experience about type anyone cares to pass along,
Cheers,
Ken
Join Date: May 2006
Location: stateside
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Dogs..
That would be a good way to describe them
But heres the stuff i remember
Starter Gen, PTO seals leak regularly not uncommon to have to replace them every 100
Wiring is a major pain, 15 Alpha panel needs boost pump wires directed soldered to board, they burn out
Beep motor make sure it works and isnt siezed..happens
Seal up tunnel from engine bays, suck in oil leaks of which there are heaps and blows it into cooler fans
Skid springs check for flatness, like any AS350
Push on terminals come loose on engine transmitters and cause fluctuating instruments
Throttle gates, make sure the idle gate is positive or it pops back and takes the engine back to a pre-idle position that burns out turbine as re-light comes on without throttle closed.
Watch for clutch slippage, start one engine then wind it up to 80% then start other engine to idle and bring first one back, otherwise sudden engagement of second engine induces clutch slipping and torque spikes later
Good luck
That would be a good way to describe them
But heres the stuff i remember
Starter Gen, PTO seals leak regularly not uncommon to have to replace them every 100
Wiring is a major pain, 15 Alpha panel needs boost pump wires directed soldered to board, they burn out
Beep motor make sure it works and isnt siezed..happens
Seal up tunnel from engine bays, suck in oil leaks of which there are heaps and blows it into cooler fans
Skid springs check for flatness, like any AS350
Push on terminals come loose on engine transmitters and cause fluctuating instruments
Throttle gates, make sure the idle gate is positive or it pops back and takes the engine back to a pre-idle position that burns out turbine as re-light comes on without throttle closed.
Watch for clutch slippage, start one engine then wind it up to 80% then start other engine to idle and bring first one back, otherwise sudden engagement of second engine induces clutch slipping and torque spikes later
Good luck
Join Date: Apr 2002
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Just regard it as an overly expensive way to transport old Jetranger engines around the countryside. Pitiful Grp A performance. High number of start-up failures. Lots of old dogs out there. Increasingly expensive spares with long wait times. Get used to the expression "AOG".
Why go for a twin when you can get way better performance & costs from a 350B3 or a Koala ?
Why go for a twin when you can get way better performance & costs from a 350B3 or a Koala ?
Join Date: Jan 2001
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It's the cheapest twin to buy, along with the Bo 105. If your local regulator more or less requires a twin in order to do anything useful (as in JAA countries), it is the one to go for, if you are short of money. But in the real world (i.e. not the regulatory world) the singles are much better.
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Heard of a 355FX?
From their website:
Heli-Lynx Helicopter Services
From their website:
PROGRAM SUMMARY...
355FX1…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F1
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20F Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5291 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5511 lbs
355FX2…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F2
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20F+ Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5600 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
355FX3…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F2
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20R Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
355FX Series…
Ø Installation of new Generation FX VFR Electrical System
o elimination of entire original electrical system and master boxes
o design incorporates +200% duty sealed relays and components
o modular design allows for ease of maintenance and troubleshooting
o north american procured with readily available system parts
o dedicated avionics buss allowing easy mission system integration
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Instrument Console and Overhead Panel
o Eliminates original style panel and support
o Eliminates all overhead fuses and switches
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Engine Control and Trim Cables
o eliminates original bowden type cables and springs
o provides immediate engine response without NR droop
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Electro Luminescent Instrument Lighting
o provides improved instrument visibility with a soft blue-green tint
o eliminates all fiber light cables, light generator and diffusers
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Heat and Demist Valve Control Relocation
o relocates heat and demist control valves to forward 350 location
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Tailboom Strake
o provides improved hover performance and cross wind controllability
Ø Installation of AS355N Increased Cord Tail Rotor and Accumulator System
o Provides increased tail rotor thrust in heavy weight / low speed conditions
o Optional installation on 355FX1, mandatory on 355FX2 and 355FX3
Ø Installation of electrically acutated engine anti-ice valves
Ø Installation of custom water jet cut instrument panel
Ø Installation of independent door and cowling warning switches
355FX Kit Options…
Ø 150 Amp External Mission Bus
Ø Generation FX Additional Airframe Anti-Ice/Debris Fuel Filter
Ø Generation FX Additional Engine Scavenge Oil Filter
355FX1…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F1
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20F Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5291 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5511 lbs
355FX2…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F2
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20F+ Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5600 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
355FX3…
Ø Modification Eligible for Eurocopter AS355F2
Ø Rolls-Royce 250-C20R Powerplant X 2
Ø Internal Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
Ø External Gross Weight of 5732 lbs
355FX Series…
Ø Installation of new Generation FX VFR Electrical System
o elimination of entire original electrical system and master boxes
o design incorporates +200% duty sealed relays and components
o modular design allows for ease of maintenance and troubleshooting
o north american procured with readily available system parts
o dedicated avionics buss allowing easy mission system integration
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Instrument Console and Overhead Panel
o Eliminates original style panel and support
o Eliminates all overhead fuses and switches
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Engine Control and Trim Cables
o eliminates original bowden type cables and springs
o provides immediate engine response without NR droop
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Electro Luminescent Instrument Lighting
o provides improved instrument visibility with a soft blue-green tint
o eliminates all fiber light cables, light generator and diffusers
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Heat and Demist Valve Control Relocation
o relocates heat and demist control valves to forward 350 location
Ø Installation of new Generation FX Tailboom Strake
o provides improved hover performance and cross wind controllability
Ø Installation of AS355N Increased Cord Tail Rotor and Accumulator System
o Provides increased tail rotor thrust in heavy weight / low speed conditions
o Optional installation on 355FX1, mandatory on 355FX2 and 355FX3
Ø Installation of electrically acutated engine anti-ice valves
Ø Installation of custom water jet cut instrument panel
Ø Installation of independent door and cowling warning switches
355FX Kit Options…
Ø 150 Amp External Mission Bus
Ø Generation FX Additional Airframe Anti-Ice/Debris Fuel Filter
Ø Generation FX Additional Engine Scavenge Oil Filter
AS 350 BB CofG GRAPH
One of our students has asked a question which we don't know the answer to. On the 350 BB CofG graph there is a white triangle to the right of the graph with a number 1 in. There appears to be no reference to what this is for in the legend. Just to keep this student quiet, does anyone know the answer, please?
Dick
I rather confidently took out my flight manual copy from the bookshelf hoping to give you a quick answer, but...........
My best guess is that the first step to take when using the graph is to enter along the diagonal from the base line (and not the vertical).
Hope all are well at Shawbs
JJ
I rather confidently took out my flight manual copy from the bookshelf hoping to give you a quick answer, but...........
My best guess is that the first step to take when using the graph is to enter along the diagonal from the base line (and not the vertical).
Hope all are well at Shawbs
JJ
Join Date: Mar 2003
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as350 airworthiness directive
http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi...ction=retrieve
quote
the manufacturer of the console, has stated that it will supply left- and right-side cyclic sticks at no charge to current
owners of Geneva P132 consoles, regardless of when they purchased the console.
In my experience this is a first ( I am prepared to be corrected ) , most manufacturers charge for the mod kits .
quote
the manufacturer of the console, has stated that it will supply left- and right-side cyclic sticks at no charge to current
owners of Geneva P132 consoles, regardless of when they purchased the console.
In my experience this is a first ( I am prepared to be corrected ) , most manufacturers charge for the mod kits .
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GCN I have read the entire AD , it was refreshing to see them ( Geneva ) paying for parts , nearly every AD I have seen ( including the eurocopter hydraulic belt ) has required the operator to purchase the parts . Were all the BELL parts required for the 407 tail rotor problems supplied free of charge ?
a couple of examples:-
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...E?OpenDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...1?OpenDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...3?OpenDocument
a couple of examples:-
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...E?OpenDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...1?OpenDocument
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...3?OpenDocument
Last edited by widgeon; 3rd Jun 2006 at 17:32.
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Yeah its strange how after years of use these ADs come up.
There was one a couple of years ago for the 350 where you had to check the cyclic floor stops because they found one aircraft at the factory without enough travel.
Turned out it wasnt an uncommon situation and once again had only shown up at extreme CG ranges.
Its not unusual to have manufacturers provide free kits before a certain date for things like this to assist operators.
On the 350 most Turbomeca major mods were provided free, ie TU208, TU 255/259 etc.
Good to see Geneva doing the right thing.
Its a great mod too, should be a factory fit.
There was one a couple of years ago for the 350 where you had to check the cyclic floor stops because they found one aircraft at the factory without enough travel.
Turned out it wasnt an uncommon situation and once again had only shown up at extreme CG ranges.
Its not unusual to have manufacturers provide free kits before a certain date for things like this to assist operators.
On the 350 most Turbomeca major mods were provided free, ie TU208, TU 255/259 etc.
Good to see Geneva doing the right thing.
Its a great mod too, should be a factory fit.