Cross wind approach
Crab, you state:
From memory, don't the Brit mil use OGE+5% as I quoted in my initial post? I thought we used to use HIGE + 10% as a rule of thumb for calculating whether we had the required performance.
Just the CFS pedant in me working its way back to the surface!
J
HOGE plus a 10% thrust margin is recommended by Brit Mil operators
Just the CFS pedant in me working its way back to the surface!
J
There's no problem with teaching confined area "landings" off airfield - so long as you don't touch down,
Crab, I think the informing the police is just a military thing. I got picked up for mentioning it here a while ago.
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Yes, this was what a plank driver was prosecuted for a couple of years ago. It is OK to make a landing at a private site with the owners permission, but you have to actually land. Go arounds and situations where you don't touch down are a breach of rule 5.
I think?
I think?
There's absolutely nothing wrong with flying below 500ft (yet!) provided you stay at least 500ft (in any direction) from 'persons, vehicles, vessels or structures'. The ground isn't mentioned in this particular sub-para of Rule 5. Where it gets sticky is if you are practicing CAs for example, and you attract an audience within 500ft of the aircraft. Provided you land the heli you're OK. If you have no intention of landing, you're not.
Another interesting point is the Recce of the CA. My personal take on this, is that you must carry out your recce within the restrictions of Rule 5 but when you commence your approach, you can ignore the '500 ft Rule'. So slow approaches are good as they are useful as a low recce.
J
Another interesting point is the Recce of the CA. My personal take on this, is that you must carry out your recce within the restrictions of Rule 5 but when you commence your approach, you can ignore the '500 ft Rule'. So slow approaches are good as they are useful as a low recce.
J
Coyote - quite right I should have read your post more diligently.
So if I understand the confined area dilemma correctly for civvy ops - you can break the 500 foot rule providing you land in the CA but you are not allowed to land away from a licenced aerodrome for PPL training purposes, only hover. No wonder no-one does CA trg in UK.
Jelly the HIGE + 10% was from the Gazelle days and it was 10% Tq in hand from your hover figure not a 5% or 10% thrust margin. Normal ops require a 5% TM but our mountain flying and winching needs 10%. IIRC the AAC use 10%TM for CAs.
So if I understand the confined area dilemma correctly for civvy ops - you can break the 500 foot rule providing you land in the CA but you are not allowed to land away from a licenced aerodrome for PPL training purposes, only hover. No wonder no-one does CA trg in UK.
Jelly the HIGE + 10% was from the Gazelle days and it was 10% Tq in hand from your hover figure not a 5% or 10% thrust margin. Normal ops require a 5% TM but our mountain flying and winching needs 10%. IIRC the AAC use 10%TM for CAs.
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I agree with you that you can't break rule5 while dong a recce. The rule says you are absolved from the 500ft rule whilst taking off and landing in accordance with normal aviation practices. The way I understand it is you must be on final approach or climbout to be absolved.
OD, this is what I am trying to clarify - if you make an approach and land you are absolved from rule 5 but if you make an approach to the hover and then depart again, you have neither landed nor taken off and seem therefore to be in breach of rule 5.
If you want to land you must have the landowners permission but unless that land is a licensed airfield you cannot use it for pilot training. Confused? I am!
If you want to land you must have the landowners permission but unless that land is a licensed airfield you cannot use it for pilot training. Confused? I am!
OD,
You are only absolved from the '500 ft Rule' sub-para of Rule 5 when taking-off and landing, but NOT anything else. The '1500ft Rule' for example still applies.
Regarding training for PPL(H) it is my belief (and I stand to be corrected) that you can practice full CA techniques provided you neither land nor infringe any element of Rule 5 and will, by the letter of the law, be perfectly legal. Basically, you need a remote CA without anything to cause a '500ft Rule' infringement.
Daft innit!
J
You are only absolved from the '500 ft Rule' sub-para of Rule 5 when taking-off and landing, but NOT anything else. The '1500ft Rule' for example still applies.
Regarding training for PPL(H) it is my belief (and I stand to be corrected) that you can practice full CA techniques provided you neither land nor infringe any element of Rule 5 and will, by the letter of the law, be perfectly legal. Basically, you need a remote CA without anything to cause a '500ft Rule' infringement.
Daft innit!
J
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Crab :
You are only in breach of rule 5 if you are closer than 500 ft to any person, vehicle vessel or structure and not landing.
If you don't land and stay in the hover, but are still 500ft away from the above you are not breaching the rule, and you don't need landowners permission as you haven't touched down. Remember the 500ft rule does not apply to the ground, only structures on it.
If you land then you are absolved from rule 5 (500ft only, not 1500ft), but you can't land anywhere apart from a licenced airfield while training.
Jelly : You're spot on.
You are only in breach of rule 5 if you are closer than 500 ft to any person, vehicle vessel or structure and not landing.
If you don't land and stay in the hover, but are still 500ft away from the above you are not breaching the rule, and you don't need landowners permission as you haven't touched down. Remember the 500ft rule does not apply to the ground, only structures on it.
If you land then you are absolved from rule 5 (500ft only, not 1500ft), but you can't land anywhere apart from a licenced airfield while training.
Jelly : You're spot on.
So then - other than in the middle of a large forest (which is a crap place to be flying a single engine helo) where are you going to find a realistic confined area that is outside a 500' radius of any person, vehicle, vessel or structure (presumably they include telegraph poles, pylons and fences in the definition of structures)? It would seem to answer the question of why confined area training is given lip-service in the UK.
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Skeeter,
There's a very good Army QHI at Shawbury (if he's still there....I left a couple of years ago now) who used to display the Skeeter for the Army Air Corps. I'm certain he's the kind of guy who would relish getting his hands on one again and would probably be glad to offer some advice and top-tips in return. If you're interested, I'll try and put you both in touch. If it works out, maybe you'd let me get my hands on it aswell
There's a very good Army QHI at Shawbury (if he's still there....I left a couple of years ago now) who used to display the Skeeter for the Army Air Corps. I'm certain he's the kind of guy who would relish getting his hands on one again and would probably be glad to offer some advice and top-tips in return. If you're interested, I'll try and put you both in touch. If it works out, maybe you'd let me get my hands on it aswell
Any news yet on the contact details for the ex Skeeter Pilot.
Rgds,
Skeeter Pilot
.............................
Better red than ...
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So then - other than in the middle of a large forest (which is a crap place to be flying a single engine helo) where are you going to find a realistic confined area that is outside a 500' radius of any person, vehicle, vessel or structure
Within this sceptred and unpopulated isle, there are a remarkably large number of such locations away from major towns and villages.
Just takes a bit of local recce.
But you can't use them for pilot training because they are not on a licensed airfield. I know hundreds of confined areas but none which meet the training criteria for CAA.
There are enough places in UK to do this even if you are in the SE.
The law allows you to teach CA off an airfield, you have to start and finish at a licenced field. So as long as you do not break the 500 ft rule there is no problem. Interesting though the definition of a struture - one for FL. I have always assumed this to be a building, mast road but not a fence. I will continue to assume this until the enforcement boys say otherwise. What will be interesting is when we join Europe in being 500ft agl - how do you do PFL's and CA ?
The law allows you to teach CA off an airfield, you have to start and finish at a licenced field. So as long as you do not break the 500 ft rule there is no problem. Interesting though the definition of a struture - one for FL. I have always assumed this to be a building, mast road but not a fence. I will continue to assume this until the enforcement boys say otherwise. What will be interesting is when we join Europe in being 500ft agl - how do you do PFL's and CA ?
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Hughes 500
Recover before reaching 500' agl I guess.
If that rule did come in it would kind of defeat the whole idea of a helicopter i.e. fly lower and slower when confronted with less clement weather.
People might bump in to clouds instead of descending and slowing to eventually land.
To continue with the power required posts.
To find out what you need for IGE OGE etc try
^zero wind is better
^On the ground rotors running lever fully down
^Altimeter set to QFE - 0'
^lift to low hover - note altimeter lower now -40 to -60'
^climb until altimeter says just over 0' and you are on the edge of GE (maybe 1'' in a Robinson or 7% in a Jetranger)
^Then climb again to hover OGE (prob. now 2'' or 14%)
HV!
Regarding IAS, pitot, power etc
Maybe, always try to fly in to the relative wind and therfore IAS will read correctly, more stable, better for power, caution tail etc
Recover before reaching 500' agl I guess.
If that rule did come in it would kind of defeat the whole idea of a helicopter i.e. fly lower and slower when confronted with less clement weather.
People might bump in to clouds instead of descending and slowing to eventually land.
To continue with the power required posts.
To find out what you need for IGE OGE etc try
^zero wind is better
^On the ground rotors running lever fully down
^Altimeter set to QFE - 0'
^lift to low hover - note altimeter lower now -40 to -60'
^climb until altimeter says just over 0' and you are on the edge of GE (maybe 1'' in a Robinson or 7% in a Jetranger)
^Then climb again to hover OGE (prob. now 2'' or 14%)
HV!
Regarding IAS, pitot, power etc
Maybe, always try to fly in to the relative wind and therfore IAS will read correctly, more stable, better for power, caution tail etc
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raven 2
i would just do a normal aproach to the top of the trees if i cant make the approach between them. wind wont mater as i have to not be heavy to hover out of ground effect anyway. i make the approach to ground speed not wind speed, all i remember in any wind direction is not faster than 300 fpm decent when you slow below 30knots (the air speed indicator is always acurate if the wool tufts are strait up. once in the hover a bit of wind from the side will cause the rotor wash to interfear with the tail rotor and it gets twitchy also from the left it will go in and out of vortex ring state which makes it realy twitchy and while i dance on the pedals the govenor adjusts rpm witch makes it harder again but i just keep ontop of it and feel the satisfaction of my efforts when i hold it steady as i can.
id also take off between the trees if i could but if i couldnt, just pick it up to the tops and translate from there. hovering over trees uses less power too................................
id also take off between the trees if i could but if i couldnt, just pick it up to the tops and translate from there. hovering over trees uses less power too................................
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Of all the posts on this topic Muffin came up with some sound wisdom when he suggested getting someone with experience in the left hand seat when you try a tricky site for the first time. Too many pilots especially at PPL level get their licenses and forget that their instructors carry on being interested in their progress and safety. ( I don't mean to patronise PPLs here I have met some commercial pilots who have made me wonder where they trained and some PPLs who humble me with their abilities)
I you have concerns about the site don't land until you have spoken to someone who can help you. Better going by car than a bent pilot/passenger/ onlooker/aircraft
I you have concerns about the site don't land until you have spoken to someone who can help you. Better going by car than a bent pilot/passenger/ onlooker/aircraft
