Queensland Rescue Pty Ltd
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Queensland Rescue Pty Ltd
I believe a commercial operator is due to take over the Queensland Rescue operation Mid next year, for a 12 month trial. This, I believe, followed a confidential report outlining the extraordinary financial liability of Queensland Rescue on the Government. Not surprising considering the amount of staff they have at those bases.
No doubt a commercial or non-profit organisation could do it cheaper.
No doubt a commercial or non-profit organisation could do it cheaper.
I guess thats the great thing about a "Rumour" network. You can post all sorts of fanciful ideas & see who bites.
Come on boy's .... tell us more. I'm sure there's lots of staff who'd be interested to know about their jobs??
Come on boy's .... tell us more. I'm sure there's lots of staff who'd be interested to know about their jobs??
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CHC recently put a proposal forward to the government to take over the Townsville base of the rescue service but it hasn't been accepted as it is more than the current operating costs.
Queensland rescues new EC135 (the replacement for the AS350) is well behind delivery over a dispute concerning damage to the tailboom incurred during transport from the factory. Eurocopter want to repair it but the service wants a new one,
cannot blame them.
Then there is the ongoing problem of the medical union refusing to allow doctors to travel on the Bell 412's, a problem that may spill over into the Royal Flying Doctor Service shortly.
A recent episode had a doctor, who would fly in the helicopter, having to be flown hundreds of miles in an aeroplane to man the Cairns helicopter to attend a case. These very professional flight crews are sitting around day after day doing nothing.
It is not the emergencies that are the problem as they use paramedics most of the time, it is the hospital transfers that are suffering from the refusal to fly.
There are currenly no plans for the Government to hand over control of this excellent service.
Queensland rescues new EC135 (the replacement for the AS350) is well behind delivery over a dispute concerning damage to the tailboom incurred during transport from the factory. Eurocopter want to repair it but the service wants a new one,
cannot blame them.
Then there is the ongoing problem of the medical union refusing to allow doctors to travel on the Bell 412's, a problem that may spill over into the Royal Flying Doctor Service shortly.
A recent episode had a doctor, who would fly in the helicopter, having to be flown hundreds of miles in an aeroplane to man the Cairns helicopter to attend a case. These very professional flight crews are sitting around day after day doing nothing.
It is not the emergencies that are the problem as they use paramedics most of the time, it is the hospital transfers that are suffering from the refusal to fly.
There are currenly no plans for the Government to hand over control of this excellent service.
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I can see why Townsville was the first base looked at, understand that the investigation was very high level and looked at many different aspects of the running of the base, with a particular emphasis on the recruitment of staff
Interesting that CHC was unable to come under the QLD goverment for operating costs
Interesting that CHC was unable to come under the QLD goverment for operating costs
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Who is it going to be?
Yes ‘deeper’ you are correct. CHC did put a bid in for Queensland Rescue. I believe the bid was extremely competitive, to the point of being way under the current operating costs of QR. You don’t have to be a business expert to realise it wouldn’t be hard to undercut the Queensland Government with regards to QR. They have so many staff at each base and even a full time administration assistant. Going from something like 13 staff to 6, well you do the figures. The fact all the reports and cost evaluations have been kept ‘private’ should indicate something.
The fleet and crew management structure of CHC would enable QR to be run efficiently and effectively. They even have the ability to replace the line aircraft, should it be offline, with another one of similar type rather than an AS350.
The newly formed Australian Helicopters also has some in-roads…
Yes, it is an excellent service, that is costing a ‘S#%^ Load’ to run.
Well, who ever takes over next year won’t need to work hard to reduce costs!!
Richard
The fleet and crew management structure of CHC would enable QR to be run efficiently and effectively. They even have the ability to replace the line aircraft, should it be offline, with another one of similar type rather than an AS350.
The newly formed Australian Helicopters also has some in-roads…
Yes, it is an excellent service, that is costing a ‘S#%^ Load’ to run.
Well, who ever takes over next year won’t need to work hard to reduce costs!!
Richard
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I have just arrived on the seen in Oz and I can't believe the scuttlebug that is getting around within the industry regarding the Townsville QR issues.
All I can add to it (as what I have heard) is:
1. If ex RAN crews are the best people for the job, then so be it; if they're not the best or recruitment bias is seen, then questions should be asked...
2. It doesn't matter where you come from on this small planet; a government that has the strangle hold on a service that is at the beck and call of government depts and/or the politicians then ever they require a lift here and there will protect it. Then when a competitive commercial organisation comes on to the scene to threaten the status quo, all stops are brought out to ensure that through the endless
tender paperwork and hurdles imposed by the gov' make any company think twice about continuing with their tender application.
More than likely, the real operating $'s are twicked to make the gov' service look good against comercial competition.
All I can add to it (as what I have heard) is:
1. If ex RAN crews are the best people for the job, then so be it; if they're not the best or recruitment bias is seen, then questions should be asked...
2. It doesn't matter where you come from on this small planet; a government that has the strangle hold on a service that is at the beck and call of government depts and/or the politicians then ever they require a lift here and there will protect it. Then when a competitive commercial organisation comes on to the scene to threaten the status quo, all stops are brought out to ensure that through the endless
tender paperwork and hurdles imposed by the gov' make any company think twice about continuing with their tender application.More than likely, the real operating $'s are twicked to make the gov' service look good against comercial competition.
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I think it would be great for QR to go to a commercial company. The problems in Townsville are based on the culture that has been there from the very early days, not necessary the individuals (well maybe some!).
I say bring on a private operator, maybe not CHC as it would be good to have a bit of diversity around the country.
I say bring on a private operator, maybe not CHC as it would be good to have a bit of diversity around the country.
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I'm lead to believe that Careflight on the gold coast are now providing Doctors to the QR service, through there careflight medical services branch....interesting... Maybe there on a mission to take over the QR operation entirely.
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Brisbane?
Does anyone know if it's just Townsville first up or will it be all the bases including Brissy. I know the Care Flight doctors are moving in. I guess it is just a matter of time. Would Care Flight be the best to take over?
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Beware the men in white coats
One only hopes that you boys up there in Gods playground have your doctors remain that, doctors...
It would seem the doctors down in this neck of the woods want to dictate what operation is used and where, leaving some choppers on the ground while other machines fly past their door to the task, taking up vital time. The Gong is having huge troubles at present that appear to be very political. It would also appear that the doctors didn't want the Illawarra to get the service in the first place, and have been very reluctant to fund the medical team for the local machine....dollars moving out of Sydney!
Other operations run fully qualified paramedics and seem to get the task completed without any hiccups!
Safe Flying
It would seem the doctors down in this neck of the woods want to dictate what operation is used and where, leaving some choppers on the ground while other machines fly past their door to the task, taking up vital time. The Gong is having huge troubles at present that appear to be very political. It would also appear that the doctors didn't want the Illawarra to get the service in the first place, and have been very reluctant to fund the medical team for the local machine....dollars moving out of Sydney!Other operations run fully qualified paramedics and seem to get the task completed without any hiccups!
Safe Flying
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Fullflaps,
you are only just scraping the surface there with the problems at the 'gong with respect to the doctors. Agree that is a problem but there is more happening that meets the eye.....
How is this for the latest, Lifesaver 1 goes off line during a mission, call in the Gong boys to bring the aircraft to Sydney and then ditch the crew so the Sydney crew can go glory hunting. How do you reckon might the 'gong boys feel after sitting around for months without tasking because of the beaucracy and told to get out of their own aircraft when finally they get a sniff at a job. I hear the rescue crewman sat around in his wetsuit for a considerable amount of hours just to really make it as uncomfortable as possible.
Wait there is more, new crewman coming online next week, do you think the chief crewman had anything to do with the recruiting, not a chance. He wasn't included in the recruitment selection, why, they are really trying to ostracize him in the hope he will move on. Another shining example of Sydney/SLSA really trying to drive the nail into the personnel at the gong. If these guys were not as strong as they have been the community would have lost this service long ago. (by the way a clubbie got the job surprise surprise!)
I know this is about QR topic and maybe I will repost on the old NSW EMS topic but just wanted to update and support fullflaps comments.
you are only just scraping the surface there with the problems at the 'gong with respect to the doctors. Agree that is a problem but there is more happening that meets the eye.....
How is this for the latest, Lifesaver 1 goes off line during a mission, call in the Gong boys to bring the aircraft to Sydney and then ditch the crew so the Sydney crew can go glory hunting. How do you reckon might the 'gong boys feel after sitting around for months without tasking because of the beaucracy and told to get out of their own aircraft when finally they get a sniff at a job. I hear the rescue crewman sat around in his wetsuit for a considerable amount of hours just to really make it as uncomfortable as possible.
Wait there is more, new crewman coming online next week, do you think the chief crewman had anything to do with the recruiting, not a chance. He wasn't included in the recruitment selection, why, they are really trying to ostracize him in the hope he will move on. Another shining example of Sydney/SLSA really trying to drive the nail into the personnel at the gong. If these guys were not as strong as they have been the community would have lost this service long ago. (by the way a clubbie got the job surprise surprise!)
I know this is about QR topic and maybe I will repost on the old NSW EMS topic but just wanted to update and support fullflaps comments.
one-are,
You indicated on the last thread that you are new to all this, so please dont take this as the "e police". Your comments are termed "Hijacking the thread" in pprune speak, and could possibly be the subject of its own topic. I agree with your suggestion at the bottom of the your post to start a new thread: so I'll set one up with your post because you raise some interesting points.
Back to QR: I believe the current QR issue is one of Doctor insurance (accidental death, etc). The govt has not got sufficient cover, thus the door is open to the better covered Care Flight Docs. Does anyone know if that is the extent of the issues, and will it be resolved soon?
And what is all the hinting about an investigation in Townsville? QR have a fantastic reputation and I am suprised by this thread.
You indicated on the last thread that you are new to all this, so please dont take this as the "e police". Your comments are termed "Hijacking the thread" in pprune speak, and could possibly be the subject of its own topic. I agree with your suggestion at the bottom of the your post to start a new thread: so I'll set one up with your post because you raise some interesting points.
Back to QR: I believe the current QR issue is one of Doctor insurance (accidental death, etc). The govt has not got sufficient cover, thus the door is open to the better covered Care Flight Docs. Does anyone know if that is the extent of the issues, and will it be resolved soon?
And what is all the hinting about an investigation in Townsville? QR have a fantastic reputation and I am suprised by this thread.
And what is all the hinting about an investigation in Townsville? QR have a fantastic reputation and I am suprised by this thread.
D. Insider / Capt B .... the only problem with predicting the future is that you look like a "goose" when the world dosen't end when you said it would!! No doubt time will tell?
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Helmetfire:
I have been out of the immediate loop for a couple of years but was a flight physician on the Cairns 412 for about 5 years. Now have steady contact with one of the physicians who was still crewing until this last fracas erupted. He's also a union rep and one of the louder voices and has given me a fair bit of the goings-on.
Basically this is just one of a number of issues going on (and it was going on back when I was on the crew. Basically the cover Q Health offered through workers comp was little more than chook feed - which is why I took out my own. I got my own insurance cover because I was also flying myself around in my R22) none of the others said they could (or should) afford their own cover. They have a point about the life insurance.
In the interim there has been threats to pull out over single engine vs twins & IFR rated vs VFR night rated helicopters and crews. At Cairns there was also bureaucratic internal probs with staffing the emergency room with enough docs so that the helicopter could be manned as well. (don't know if that was a problem in other places but since it is the same employer (Qld HEalth) I can't see it being different.
In the middle there was turf wars over who should be manning the helicopter - docs or paramedics. And who should be tasking the medical crews - hospital or ambulance. As the other factors took hold the paramedics were going out more and more without doctor cover and hospital admin started seeing their staff pay budgets decrease so they were happy not to resolve the situation. (para's pay come out of Qld Emergency Services budgets not Qld Health.) At present there have been only a couple of reported disasters or worse patient outcomes from paras going out alone and no relatives know about them so no complaints (cynical ba. d aren't I) to the health departments or lawyers- so the bean counters are happy to see the docs stay off the helicopters. On that point you have to realize that the doctors who go out aren't just your junior interns or even medium level doctors. These are all highly trained specialists in either emergency medicine or anaesthesia/intensive care. Several world studies (including one from NSW) have shown when you staff helicopters with paras or junior docs the patient outcomes are about the same but when you only use specialists the outcomes are much better - so we never sent any juniors on their own ever. But that costs more money so QH is happy they aren't going.
So it was just one of a number simmering problems .
I have been out of the immediate loop for a couple of years but was a flight physician on the Cairns 412 for about 5 years. Now have steady contact with one of the physicians who was still crewing until this last fracas erupted. He's also a union rep and one of the louder voices and has given me a fair bit of the goings-on.
Basically this is just one of a number of issues going on (and it was going on back when I was on the crew. Basically the cover Q Health offered through workers comp was little more than chook feed - which is why I took out my own. I got my own insurance cover because I was also flying myself around in my R22) none of the others said they could (or should) afford their own cover. They have a point about the life insurance.
In the interim there has been threats to pull out over single engine vs twins & IFR rated vs VFR night rated helicopters and crews. At Cairns there was also bureaucratic internal probs with staffing the emergency room with enough docs so that the helicopter could be manned as well. (don't know if that was a problem in other places but since it is the same employer (Qld HEalth) I can't see it being different.
In the middle there was turf wars over who should be manning the helicopter - docs or paramedics. And who should be tasking the medical crews - hospital or ambulance. As the other factors took hold the paramedics were going out more and more without doctor cover and hospital admin started seeing their staff pay budgets decrease so they were happy not to resolve the situation. (para's pay come out of Qld Emergency Services budgets not Qld Health.) At present there have been only a couple of reported disasters or worse patient outcomes from paras going out alone and no relatives know about them so no complaints (cynical ba.
d aren't I) to the health departments or lawyers- so the bean counters are happy to see the docs stay off the helicopters. On that point you have to realize that the doctors who go out aren't just your junior interns or even medium level doctors. These are all highly trained specialists in either emergency medicine or anaesthesia/intensive care. Several world studies (including one from NSW) have shown when you staff helicopters with paras or junior docs the patient outcomes are about the same but when you only use specialists the outcomes are much better - so we never sent any juniors on their own ever. But that costs more money so QH is happy they aren't going.So it was just one of a number simmering problems .
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Several world studies (including one from NSW) have shown when you staff helicopters with paras or junior docs the patient outcomes are about the same but when you only use specialists the outcomes are much better - so we never sent any juniors on their own ever.
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Av8r:
I think mostly it is related to being able to diagnose things better, realise what's going on and begin treatment. There is a difference between stopping things getting worse, stabilizing, and commencing the fixing up phase.
It's been said The "Golden hour " concept only changes outcomes when the fix-it phase is started within the hour. Stabilizing or slowing down the demise doesn't seem to alter outcome. That might be as "simple" as fluid resuscitation - but also might be complex like the choice of pressure control ventilation vs volume control ventilation. (These are modes of ventilating someone (a level of complexity higher than just sticking tube down their neck and sqeezing a bag) or beginning heart optimizing drugs and deciding on which one depending on what else is going on with the patient - do you choose Alpha agonists or beta agonists (different types of heart drugs) or nitrates.
Similarly there is a better appreciation of what's going in this patient with the rest of their systems. Being able to look outside the algoriths and protocols.
The other thing that I saw in some of the juniors was a failure to appreciate the significance of things simply because the level of knowledge wasn't there (from simple lack of experience.) Sometimes a little knowledge was not enough for people to realise they were not equipped to handle where they were taking themselves. The classic is the (and I have personally had to rescue patients a couple of times) when the proper treatment is to intubate and ventilate and the guy on the scene knew that - fine- got out the drugs fired them in - patient paralysed - then - couldn't intubate! Bag and mask - couldn't ventilate! Patient has three minutes to live.
Operator knew how to sling a tube in the easy "normal"patient but these were not easy nor normal but his experience wasn't enough to work that out. Fortunately these were while we in the resusc rooms in peripheral hospitals and when I took over and used some tricks we got out of trouble but...... these are tricks I learned as a specialist over fifteen years.
Overall it's a mix of things mostly related to experience and training at looking after patients with these problems every day (and doing from start to finish not doing just the front bit and then handing over to someone to sort out the primary disease and any complications that can happen from the treatment.)
Same reason any patient in any field of medicine is statistically likely to do better with a specialist rather than junior with limited experience.
I think mostly it is related to being able to diagnose things better, realise what's going on and begin treatment. There is a difference between stopping things getting worse, stabilizing, and commencing the fixing up phase.
It's been said The "Golden hour " concept only changes outcomes when the fix-it phase is started within the hour. Stabilizing or slowing down the demise doesn't seem to alter outcome. That might be as "simple" as fluid resuscitation - but also might be complex like the choice of pressure control ventilation vs volume control ventilation. (These are modes of ventilating someone (a level of complexity higher than just sticking tube down their neck and sqeezing a bag) or beginning heart optimizing drugs and deciding on which one depending on what else is going on with the patient - do you choose Alpha agonists or beta agonists (different types of heart drugs) or nitrates.
Similarly there is a better appreciation of what's going in this patient with the rest of their systems. Being able to look outside the algoriths and protocols.
The other thing that I saw in some of the juniors was a failure to appreciate the significance of things simply because the level of knowledge wasn't there (from simple lack of experience.) Sometimes a little knowledge was not enough for people to realise they were not equipped to handle where they were taking themselves. The classic is the (and I have personally had to rescue patients a couple of times) when the proper treatment is to intubate and ventilate and the guy on the scene knew that - fine- got out the drugs fired them in - patient paralysed - then - couldn't intubate! Bag and mask - couldn't ventilate! Patient has three minutes to live.
Operator knew how to sling a tube in the easy "normal"patient but these were not easy nor normal but his experience wasn't enough to work that out. Fortunately these were while we in the resusc rooms in peripheral hospitals and when I took over and used some tricks we got out of trouble but...... these are tricks I learned as a specialist over fifteen years.
Overall it's a mix of things mostly related to experience and training at looking after patients with these problems every day (and doing from start to finish not doing just the front bit and then handing over to someone to sort out the primary disease and any complications that can happen from the treatment.)
Same reason any patient in any field of medicine is statistically likely to do better with a specialist rather than junior with limited experience.
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That’s great Doc,
But explain to me why it's O.K. for every Ambulance in Australia to be manned by Paramedics/Ambulance Officers and they can attend to the same accidents and medical jobs by road. But as soon as it's a 'CHOPPER job' the poor ol' Paramedic ain't good enough?
After all isn’t an Aeromedical Helicopter just a flying Ambulance?
I read with interest the latest NSW Rescue Helicopter review which stated a Doctor was “world standard” crewing. From my knowledge of Aeromedicine around the world, it seems a Paramedic and Flight Nurse seems to be the norm.
S.A.
But explain to me why it's O.K. for every Ambulance in Australia to be manned by Paramedics/Ambulance Officers and they can attend to the same accidents and medical jobs by road. But as soon as it's a 'CHOPPER job' the poor ol' Paramedic ain't good enough?
After all isn’t an Aeromedical Helicopter just a flying Ambulance?
I read with interest the latest NSW Rescue Helicopter review which stated a Doctor was “world standard” crewing. From my knowledge of Aeromedicine around the world, it seems a Paramedic and Flight Nurse seems to be the norm.
S.A.