Impact ELT vs Personal ELT
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Impact ELT vs Personal ELT
Guys,
Just had a thought from another thread which made me think about personal ELT's. I have a Breitling Emegency watch, which i guess can be classed as a personal ELT, how do you guys rate the ELT's on the market today versus the probability of the impact ELT going off (If there is one fitted at all) and having to use the Personal ELT?
MD
Just had a thought from another thread which made me think about personal ELT's. I have a Breitling Emegency watch, which i guess can be classed as a personal ELT, how do you guys rate the ELT's on the market today versus the probability of the impact ELT going off (If there is one fitted at all) and having to use the Personal ELT?
MD
Gatvol
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Personal ELT is a choice. I usually carry extra things in case I go down somewhere remote. Handheld Transiever is best and about the same size as something other than Breitling (and less expensive) Consider though that very few folks monitor 121.5 or 243.0. So its nicer to have something on the frequencies used in your area.
Also an impact ELT usually means I dont need to be rescued anyway in most cases.
Also an impact ELT usually means I dont need to be rescued anyway in most cases.
Better red than ...
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I think it depends where you plan to crash. If there is a risk of over water or fire then the handheld may be better.
If you plan incapacitation on hard landing but plan to remain strapped in then impact may serve best.
Good planning (and risk assessment) may require both. One for the impact and one in your pocket as you bail out quick ...
If you plan incapacitation on hard landing but plan to remain strapped in then impact may serve best.
Good planning (and risk assessment) may require both. One for the impact and one in your pocket as you bail out quick ...
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I like to have a personal ELT as well as an impact ELT. I know of 6 accidents where the impact ELT didn't go off but it just as likely will work and you may not be capable of activating the personal unit. more the merrier i say.
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B Sousa
Although an ELT is registered to aircraft or vessel, a portable 406 Mhz PLB is registered to an individual. I carry the following satellite PLB on every flight (you can use almost any third-party GPS to upload your exact coordinate)...
http://www.acrelectronics.com/PLBorig/406plbnew.html
In the USA, here is the NOAA online database for registration...
https://beaconregistration.noaa.gov/...aconOwnerLogin
The nice thing about this, is that I can take it with me on backcountry wilderness trips and other places, because it isn't bolted to the airframe. Also, if your aircraft catches fire, you might not get to your ELT in time. This fits nicely in my crew vest, so I always have it with me. Hopefully, I'll never use it (sounds of knocking on wood).
One more thing. I don't like the smaller PLB units because the antenae is too short. A recent test proved that if your antenae is under even a couple inches of water, it won't work. The unit above has a flexible antenae that wraps around the outside (not shown in picture), so it extends out to almost 18 inches. Also, I don't like the PLB with integrated GPS because if the GPS fails, so might the rest of the unit. Futher, GPS technology changes often and I would like to be able to be able to upgrade my GPS without changing my PLB (not much technology to change in satellite transmission). These things can get expensive.
Although an ELT is registered to aircraft or vessel, a portable 406 Mhz PLB is registered to an individual. I carry the following satellite PLB on every flight (you can use almost any third-party GPS to upload your exact coordinate)...
http://www.acrelectronics.com/PLBorig/406plbnew.html
In the USA, here is the NOAA online database for registration...
https://beaconregistration.noaa.gov/...aconOwnerLogin
The nice thing about this, is that I can take it with me on backcountry wilderness trips and other places, because it isn't bolted to the airframe. Also, if your aircraft catches fire, you might not get to your ELT in time. This fits nicely in my crew vest, so I always have it with me. Hopefully, I'll never use it (sounds of knocking on wood).
One more thing. I don't like the smaller PLB units because the antenae is too short. A recent test proved that if your antenae is under even a couple inches of water, it won't work. The unit above has a flexible antenae that wraps around the outside (not shown in picture), so it extends out to almost 18 inches. Also, I don't like the PLB with integrated GPS because if the GPS fails, so might the rest of the unit. Futher, GPS technology changes often and I would like to be able to be able to upgrade my GPS without changing my PLB (not much technology to change in satellite transmission). These things can get expensive.
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Not many airframe-mounted ELTs have worked in helo accidents in Oz for a variety of reasons from improper mounting to the airframe burning.
My suggestion is that if you can afford it, both is the best way. The hand held should be worn (working on the idea of removing as you leave the airframe has severe shortcomings, especially over water) and the airframe model should be multi-axis and serviced regularly. 406 is the way to go also, especially in the more remote areas.
My suggestion is that if you can afford it, both is the best way. The hand held should be worn (working on the idea of removing as you leave the airframe has severe shortcomings, especially over water) and the airframe model should be multi-axis and serviced regularly. 406 is the way to go also, especially in the more remote areas.
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personal strobe...
I agree with Ogsplash.
When you need them you can never have enough of beacons. My preference is for one stuck in a shirt or pants pocket if not wearing a vest. The other pocket has an ACR firefly strobe.
My theory is that if you do survive and are trapped it is still within reach. Also agree that watching your fixed elt go up in smoke would be very depressing.
If flying in a multi crew machine ensure the rest of the crew know you are carrying a personal ELT in a pocket as they may find it useful even if you have expired.
I worked with one guy who had a motor vehicle accident on a country road and was trapped. He found it frustrating to have the phone ringing but just out of reach. Took 24 hours to find him.
Will check with an AMSA contact as to registering 406 Meg beacons to an individual not a hull.
The Eye
When you need them you can never have enough of beacons. My preference is for one stuck in a shirt or pants pocket if not wearing a vest. The other pocket has an ACR firefly strobe.
My theory is that if you do survive and are trapped it is still within reach. Also agree that watching your fixed elt go up in smoke would be very depressing.
If flying in a multi crew machine ensure the rest of the crew know you are carrying a personal ELT in a pocket as they may find it useful even if you have expired.
I worked with one guy who had a motor vehicle accident on a country road and was trapped. He found it frustrating to have the phone ringing but just out of reach. Took 24 hours to find him.
Will check with an AMSA contact as to registering 406 Meg beacons to an individual not a hull.
The Eye
There are several good reasons for going to 406mhz, the best being that the COSPAS/SARSAT support for 121.5 and 243.0 is being phased out. If you have a 121.5 or 243.0 beacon at the moment and set it off you will have to wait for at least 2 satellite passes before anyone gets alerted due to the number of false alarms on these frequencies and the need for 2 different indications to resolve doppler inaacuracies, plus the satellite has to be able to see an earth station to transmit the info to it.
A 406 beacon can give a unique code with all sorts of embedded information (including GPS coordinates if fitted to it) so as soon as the signal is received people know who you are and where you are.
Homing to 121.5 and 243.0 is primitive at the best of times - it is much easier to set up a search and rescue when you know the lat and long of the survivor.
http://www.cospas-sarsat.com/FirstPa....5PhaseOut.htm
A 406 beacon can give a unique code with all sorts of embedded information (including GPS coordinates if fitted to it) so as soon as the signal is received people know who you are and where you are.
Homing to 121.5 and 243.0 is primitive at the best of times - it is much easier to set up a search and rescue when you know the lat and long of the survivor.
http://www.cospas-sarsat.com/FirstPa....5PhaseOut.htm
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Personal ELT
RDRickster
Where does one get hold of one of the ELT's that you showed in your reply? and how much does it cost?
Crab
Is 406 being used that much at the moment? and if the change over isn't till 2009, apart from the obvious time limitation on rescue, are many people using this new 406 technology?
Catseye
Great things the strobe light. I heard of a story where some guys out on an IR course where doing some of their fixed wing stuff over the Rockies and then had multiple engine failure. The pilot crash landed the plane on the side of this mountain. the ELT worked and was transmitting a signal, but SAR had problems locating the crew, luckily enough one of the passengers had a camera, and he just kept taking pictures with the flash on and they saw it. Had he had a personal strobe, me thinks they would have been spotted earlier
Everyone else
Why do impact ELT's have such a high fail rate? excuse my ignorance here guys sorry
MD
Where does one get hold of one of the ELT's that you showed in your reply? and how much does it cost?
Crab
Is 406 being used that much at the moment? and if the change over isn't till 2009, apart from the obvious time limitation on rescue, are many people using this new 406 technology?
Catseye
Great things the strobe light. I heard of a story where some guys out on an IR course where doing some of their fixed wing stuff over the Rockies and then had multiple engine failure. The pilot crash landed the plane on the side of this mountain. the ELT worked and was transmitting a signal, but SAR had problems locating the crew, luckily enough one of the passengers had a camera, and he just kept taking pictures with the flash on and they saw it. Had he had a personal strobe, me thinks they would have been spotted earlier
Everyone else
Why do impact ELT's have such a high fail rate? excuse my ignorance here guys sorry
MD
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If I recall most common reason is that the post-crash fire burnt them up. There has been a bit of discussion going on in various places about where the ELT should be placed to limit the risk of this but most of the recommendations (in the tail seems to be the most common recommendation) only are suitable for Fixed wingers.
The other problem is if you go down in water - not just the ocean but also lakes, rivers etc. As soon as the aircraft sinks the ELT often loses its coverage.
I don't recall hearing of many other situations where it hasn't gone off..but there may have been.
The other problem is if you go down in water - not just the ocean but also lakes, rivers etc. As soon as the aircraft sinks the ELT often loses its coverage.
I don't recall hearing of many other situations where it hasn't gone off..but there may have been.
Gatvol
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Ironically as soon as this thread was posted I got my latest issue of Air Beat (www.alea.org) In there is an article about a new Personal Locator which looks like what we are talking about (EPIRB). I think you can find it on their site. www.acrelectronics.com
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Manufacturer Sources...
I purchased my PLB from the following company, but their website hasn't been active since the hurricanes hit Florida. They had the best prices when I checked around, and I bought a lot of other gear from them, too:
Concorde AeroSales, Inc. (click here)
2046 Madison St.
Hollywood, FL 33020
800-413-7233
954-929-4200
FAX: 954-929-4241
The manufacturer information is here:
ACR Electronics, Inc. (click here)
5757 Ravenswood Rd.
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33312
800-4320-227
954-981-3333
FAX: 954-983-5087
Their newest product has both GPS and PLB. It is almost the same size as the Gypsy 406 PLB that I have, and it has nearly the same size antenae. Here is a picture of the two items side by side for comparison (new model is on the right)...
Nevertheless, I still like having two separate units (PLB & GPS), because I want the battery in my PLB to do nothing but run my PLB. The more power available for the antennae, the better and longer it will run. I carry an optic cable to transfer coordinates from my new Garmin GPSMAP60CS, which I use outside the aircraft often. For example, Geocaching (click here) is a lot of fun for the kids (kinda like burried treasures for the young ones).
Also, if my GPS fails or there is a problem in that circuit, it won't affect the PLB. Having a coordinate uplink in your PLB is important because it gets SAR in the air within ONE hour (pretty darn good & better than ELT). Here is a picture of the GPS that I carry (picutres are NOT to scale)...
Concorde AeroSales, Inc. (click here)
2046 Madison St.
Hollywood, FL 33020
800-413-7233
954-929-4200
FAX: 954-929-4241
The manufacturer information is here:
ACR Electronics, Inc. (click here)
5757 Ravenswood Rd.
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33312
800-4320-227
954-981-3333
FAX: 954-983-5087
Their newest product has both GPS and PLB. It is almost the same size as the Gypsy 406 PLB that I have, and it has nearly the same size antenae. Here is a picture of the two items side by side for comparison (new model is on the right)...
Nevertheless, I still like having two separate units (PLB & GPS), because I want the battery in my PLB to do nothing but run my PLB. The more power available for the antennae, the better and longer it will run. I carry an optic cable to transfer coordinates from my new Garmin GPSMAP60CS, which I use outside the aircraft often. For example, Geocaching (click here) is a lot of fun for the kids (kinda like burried treasures for the young ones).
Also, if my GPS fails or there is a problem in that circuit, it won't affect the PLB. Having a coordinate uplink in your PLB is important because it gets SAR in the air within ONE hour (pretty darn good & better than ELT). Here is a picture of the GPS that I carry (picutres are NOT to scale)...
Last edited by RDRickster; 1st Oct 2004 at 13:40.
MD900 - the 406 beacons will become mandatory for all aviation and maritime passenger carriers so there is no point in not getting one. The whole point of them (when linked to GPS) is that you don't have to home to them (they only transmit every 30 seconds or so making that quite difficult anyway) because you already know where the beacon is (within 100m or less). You just pitch up, maybe search a very small area, perform a fabulous rescue and then make it back home in time for tea and medals!
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I've successfully homed a 406MHz beacon without any info from the satellites. It wasn't easy, but we worked it out. If there are two continually transmitting beacons close together, I can home to the stronger signal, but with 406 beacons if two are transmitting near each other it will be nearly impossible for me to resolve either one. This may change with homing technology, but even better is to ensure that the GPS is a part of the 406 and that the beacon also transmits low power on 121.5. Having the GPS external only helps if you're a cooperative crash victim, ie when you don't need rescuing as quickly. GPS technology may be changing rapidly, but most rescuers will find you if you get them within one mile...meter accuracy is not required.
Matthew.
Matthew.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Personal ELT
Now i just hope Breitling come up with a suitable alternate for the module in the watch
Thanks for all your input guys, maybe just a thought, but i should really ask, since RobboRider pointed out, that most get scorched after the fire, that where maybe should the best place be for the Impact ELT to be located and why?
MD
Thanks for all your input guys, maybe just a thought, but i should really ask, since RobboRider pointed out, that most get scorched after the fire, that where maybe should the best place be for the Impact ELT to be located and why?
MD
