sexual harassment?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sexual harassment?
Just wanted to share a story with you.....
A little while ago I had a female flight student, whom whenever she was sitting in the aircraft (rotors running) would rest her left hand on her left leg...I told her several times to keep her hand on the collective...... anyways, several days later she had still not broken the habit, so, in the aircraft I said, and I quote:
"See this big, long hard thing here" (stroking the collective)!,she looked over,
"Touch it, feel it, stroke it, (at which point she put her hand on it,(the collective that is)! and I said " doesn't it feel good".... she then went bright red and cracked up laughing.......
Well it worked because I never had to tell her again....
Afterwards when I had time to reflect I am just glad she was game as right now I would be facing a sexual discrimination suit! I am also glad on that day I didn't have a hot mike!!!!!!!!
Fatigue
A little while ago I had a female flight student, whom whenever she was sitting in the aircraft (rotors running) would rest her left hand on her left leg...I told her several times to keep her hand on the collective...... anyways, several days later she had still not broken the habit, so, in the aircraft I said, and I quote:
"See this big, long hard thing here" (stroking the collective)!,she looked over,
"Touch it, feel it, stroke it, (at which point she put her hand on it,(the collective that is)! and I said " doesn't it feel good".... she then went bright red and cracked up laughing.......
Well it worked because I never had to tell her again....
Afterwards when I had time to reflect I am just glad she was game as right now I would be facing a sexual discrimination suit! I am also glad on that day I didn't have a hot mike!!!!!!!!
Fatigue
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue, and that's what you'll have standing in front of a Sexual Harassment Board trying to justify why you should still have a job.
That sorta stuff is a mine field. And you just stepped on one, it went click but hasn't gone off..... yet. Don't lift your foot.
In this area, you are guilty as charged and have to prove yourself innocent. Never brief / debrief one on one. These days you have to cover your ass. Allegations can be made with out your knowledge and with out proof, it's up to you to defend why you should still have a job.
A close friend of mine has just gone through exactly this in a similar situation to yours with a large multi national helicopter company. Very scary.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
That sorta stuff is a mine field. And you just stepped on one, it went click but hasn't gone off..... yet. Don't lift your foot.
In this area, you are guilty as charged and have to prove yourself innocent. Never brief / debrief one on one. These days you have to cover your ass. Allegations can be made with out your knowledge and with out proof, it's up to you to defend why you should still have a job.
A close friend of mine has just gone through exactly this in a similar situation to yours with a large multi national helicopter company. Very scary.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Av8r,
I totally agree with you , I think I was just frustrated with her and it just came out, but, upon reflection I know that I wouldn't say anyhting of the sort again, told myself to watch my mouth.....live and learn I suppose..thankfully she was a good sport!
Fatigue.
I totally agree with you , I think I was just frustrated with her and it just came out, but, upon reflection I know that I wouldn't say anyhting of the sort again, told myself to watch my mouth.....live and learn I suppose..thankfully she was a good sport!
Fatigue.
Was flying once with a girl who had .. err.. magnificent chest ornaments.
While teaching confined areas, I was waving my arms around and pointing at various things, and came into contact with one or both of them. A quick apology followed, she smiled and said that they tend to get in the way anyhow, and nothing further was said.
These days, she would now own the school and her lawyer would have a new Mercedes.
While teaching confined areas, I was waving my arms around and pointing at various things, and came into contact with one or both of them. A quick apology followed, she smiled and said that they tend to get in the way anyhow, and nothing further was said.
These days, she would now own the school and her lawyer would have a new Mercedes.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Above and Below Zero Lat. [Presently at least]
Posts: 198
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatique.
I sincerely hope that this student has passed and is out of your life.
This is still a loaded gun.
Once said, offended or words/pictures read, this person can at any time in the future cry fowl. And she will be listened to.
Imagine: If you don't send her solo, or tell her she needs more practice or fails a hurdle in her training. Then all she needs to do is mention that it was because he "you" was angry because I didn't "stroke his long hard thing". And you and your Flight School will be in all sorts of difficulty.
Best way for her to get free training that I can see.
Yes its a minefield. And somewhat extremely one sided.
This is still a loaded gun.
Once said, offended or words/pictures read, this person can at any time in the future cry fowl. And she will be listened to.
Imagine: If you don't send her solo, or tell her she needs more practice or fails a hurdle in her training. Then all she needs to do is mention that it was because he "you" was angry because I didn't "stroke his long hard thing". And you and your Flight School will be in all sorts of difficulty.
Best way for her to get free training that I can see.
Yes its a minefield. And somewhat extremely one sided.
My outfit has a very stringent policy regards Sexual Harassment...it shall not be tolerated....graded and critiqued...but not tolerated.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Uperuberboot
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
funny this topic should come up...actually just last night I responded to an email from one of our company pilots who was reviewing information attached to our flight clipboard and wanted to know whether there was anything that should be added to it.
...being the fat, dumb (is the keyword) & happy pilot that I am (more so after a few ales..as was the case), I replied to everyone concerned (dumb being the key word again!) after "much" deliberation to add a reminder in bold lettering..."strippers at the Blood & Guts (hotel) every tuesday" .....buuurrrrp! ...send!
...and that was just a day & a half after being reminded by our base manager on the company's sexual harrassment policy and in particular, with reference to the fact that we had just hired our only female copilot!..eeks!...was a good thing that she hadn't arrived yet.
...being the fat, dumb (is the keyword) & happy pilot that I am (more so after a few ales..as was the case), I replied to everyone concerned (dumb being the key word again!) after "much" deliberation to add a reminder in bold lettering..."strippers at the Blood & Guts (hotel) every tuesday" .....buuurrrrp! ...send!
...and that was just a day & a half after being reminded by our base manager on the company's sexual harrassment policy and in particular, with reference to the fact that we had just hired our only female copilot!..eeks!...was a good thing that she hadn't arrived yet.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Look guys, don't you think you're going just a teeny weeny bit over the top here. Most of us accept that this is a male orientated profession, and that this sort of banter will go on. We may or may not wish it would change, but I can't see any woman who's going to scream and yell about it really having what it takes to get a licence. As for legal action and getting lots of dosh...it's her word against yours, isn't it?
I for one hope that people would treat me as a pilot first and a woman second...at least when I'm flying.
Most of the time I think that's the case - though it often wasn't in the early days with low hours very young FIs who needed to grow up! If it's not the case...well, it's their problem, not mine.
For the record, most of us are capable of distinguishing between banter and real prejudice/sexual harassment. The difference is very obvious. And unfortunately, I at any rate have had enough practice to be able to separate the two. So please stop worrying about being misunderstood...unless of course you need to.
I for one hope that people would treat me as a pilot first and a woman second...at least when I'm flying.
Most of the time I think that's the case - though it often wasn't in the early days with low hours very young FIs who needed to grow up! If it's not the case...well, it's their problem, not mine.For the record, most of us are capable of distinguishing between banter and real prejudice/sexual harassment. The difference is very obvious. And unfortunately, I at any rate have had enough practice to be able to separate the two. So please stop worrying about being misunderstood...unless of course you need to.
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Up In The Sky...
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think I was just frustrated with her and it just came out
No, joking aside, I think whirlybird is right. I know it's a funny world and people will try and screw you for everything you've got (no pun inteneded there) for making a tiny mistake which could easily be taken the wrong way, but I am sure she understood that it was nothing more than a silly comment.
Incidentally, have any female instructors out there had experience of this situation in reverse? I am hoping to become an instructor one day and I just wondered if male students behave themselves and listen to female instructors just as much as they would male instructors. I would hope to be treated as a pilot and like any other instructor.
WGS
Senis Semper Fidelis
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Lancashire U K
Posts: 1,288
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you know, my time is running out faster than the credit-o-meter in Toni Blairs Government,
I have been looking for someone to Sexually Harrass me since I was eighteen, not found anyone yet, bu**er what am I doing wrong!
Vfr
I have been looking for someone to Sexually Harrass me since I was eighteen, not found anyone yet, bu**er what am I doing wrong!
Vfr
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: White Waltham, Prestwick & Calgary
Age: 72
Posts: 4,156
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes
on
14 Posts
yeah, my company said it has a policy of sexual harrassment, but nothing's happened yet 
Phil
Seriously, it would have to be a hard-*ss bitch of either sex to take advantage of such a situation, but they are around....
Phil
Seriously, it would have to be a hard-*ss bitch of either sex to take advantage of such a situation, but they are around....
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: USA
Age: 75
Posts: 3,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fatigue,
I really understand the implied threat that hangs over us, but I think that in your case a downing grade on that ride would have been as effective, directly pertinent and more on the mark.
I took my hand off the collective in flight school to give a formation leader a thumbs up, and now 37 years later, I can feel the sting of the pink slip.
I really understand the implied threat that hangs over us, but I think that in your case a downing grade on that ride would have been as effective, directly pertinent and more on the mark.
I took my hand off the collective in flight school to give a formation leader a thumbs up, and now 37 years later, I can feel the sting of the pink slip.
I only read the thread because I thought it was an offer.
It's sad that people have to think this way and that every thing you do or say is fodder for some lawyer, somewhere. Having a mouth that runs slightly faster than my brain I am almost constantly either apologising or hoping no-one heard what I just said.
As always Whirlybird stepped in with the voice of reason, but not everyone is so reasonable these days.
It's sad that people have to think this way and that every thing you do or say is fodder for some lawyer, somewhere. Having a mouth that runs slightly faster than my brain I am almost constantly either apologising or hoping no-one heard what I just said.
As always Whirlybird stepped in with the voice of reason, but not everyone is so reasonable these days.
Errrr...Nick....."Sting of the Pink Slip"? Did your pink unmentionable ride up and pinch you? Now we know about how Cobra Pilots got selected .....Pink Slips and untied boots....some sort of fashion statement?
Iconoclast
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The home of Dudley Dooright-Where the lead dog is the only one that gets a change of scenery.
Posts: 2,132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same sex sexual harassment. This is how far it can go.
When sexual harassment is reported it can get out of hand if there is no investigation of the charges. This happened when I was working at Douglas Aircraft Missiles and Space division.
A new department was being formed and it was totally populated with women. In the group of women was a young girl whose total life experience consisted of raising and riding horses and not much more. The lead woman was also a union rep. She approached the young girl who was attempting to clean the optics of a microfiche reader with cotton rags. The union rep told the young girl to get a box of Kim whipes (oversized Kleenex ®). The young girl asked what a Kim whipe ® was and the union rep saw an opportunity to tease the young girl. The union rep told the young girl that at the age of 18 she should know what a Kim was and that a Kim whipe ® was used to whipe a kim and that every girl should know what a kim was.
The young girl reported the union rep to personnel and it was kicked up to the Vice President of Douglas MSSD. Two days later the union president, the union rep, and the young girl were in the VPs office. The VP jumped on the union rep telling her that she should know better and that sexual harassment was against company policy. The union president chimed in and essentially repeated what the VP had stated. The union rep was then asked to explain herself. After telling the whole story the VP and the union president started to laugh and they told the young girl to grow up.
A new department was being formed and it was totally populated with women. In the group of women was a young girl whose total life experience consisted of raising and riding horses and not much more. The lead woman was also a union rep. She approached the young girl who was attempting to clean the optics of a microfiche reader with cotton rags. The union rep told the young girl to get a box of Kim whipes (oversized Kleenex ®). The young girl asked what a Kim whipe ® was and the union rep saw an opportunity to tease the young girl. The union rep told the young girl that at the age of 18 she should know what a Kim was and that a Kim whipe ® was used to whipe a kim and that every girl should know what a kim was.
The young girl reported the union rep to personnel and it was kicked up to the Vice President of Douglas MSSD. Two days later the union president, the union rep, and the young girl were in the VPs office. The VP jumped on the union rep telling her that she should know better and that sexual harassment was against company policy. The union president chimed in and essentially repeated what the VP had stated. The union rep was then asked to explain herself. After telling the whole story the VP and the union president started to laugh and they told the young girl to grow up.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys are all sick and demented.
I see nothing sexual about the comments whatsoever. Get your minds out of the gutter. You were simply describing the device and how you would use it. If she took it as a sexual comment, I would be shocked, ashamed and astonished. We are all professionals here.
I see nothing sexual about the comments whatsoever. Get your minds out of the gutter. You were simply describing the device and how you would use it. If she took it as a sexual comment, I would be shocked, ashamed and astonished. We are all professionals here.
Ah...but we are Helicopter Pilots.....therein lies the difference.
We have a certain facade to maintain....no matter how much it pains us....we (particularly US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilots) have to appear as proper male chauvinistic swine who drink to excess and pursue the fair sex to a fault.
Granted some of us have further to go in our acting than others.
Besides, it ain't harrassment until the victim announces her displeasure and asks for the "offender" to cease and desist....afterall it has to be a "pattern" of behaviour and not a simple, single event (for verbal incidents)...physical events fall under the old fashioned criminal statutes regarding Assaults.
Gentlemanly behaviour will keep you clear of such problems anyway. If you speak to your students and work colleagues as you would speak to your wife, sister, Mother and Grandmother....what can be the problem?
We have a certain facade to maintain....no matter how much it pains us....we (particularly US Army Warrant Officer Helicopter Pilots) have to appear as proper male chauvinistic swine who drink to excess and pursue the fair sex to a fault.
Granted some of us have further to go in our acting than others.
Besides, it ain't harrassment until the victim announces her displeasure and asks for the "offender" to cease and desist....afterall it has to be a "pattern" of behaviour and not a simple, single event (for verbal incidents)...physical events fall under the old fashioned criminal statutes regarding Assaults.
Gentlemanly behaviour will keep you clear of such problems anyway. If you speak to your students and work colleagues as you would speak to your wife, sister, Mother and Grandmother....what can be the problem?
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlygirl Sarah,
Well, I've not been instructing long...yes, I know I've been saying that for a while, but with only a day or two a week, it takes a long time before you feel experienced....in helicopter instructing that is; I feel the need to emphasise that owing to the tone of this thread, which I know will head for the gutter at the slightest opportunity.
So, to get to the point - I've had nothing along the lines of this thread. And most students appear to listen to me...as far as I can tell. About the only thing vaguely along those lines that I remember, a few months ago....
I arrive at the arifield; the CFI is out flying. My trial lesson student arrives, complete with wife and family. I tell him the CFI is out flying, and our helicopter will be back soon. He chats to wife and looks around. Time passes, and I figure I'd better give him a briefing, so ask him to come into the briefing room. I vaguely notice his bemused expression, but people are often nervous and unsure of themselves when coming for a trial lesson, so I think nothing of it, and chat and try to put him at his ease in my usual fashion. He then says: "I know this must sound a bit silly, but I didn't realise that there were women helicopter pilots". 
Well, I must have been in a good mood or something, because I smiled nicely and told him that was OK, and there really weren't that many of us anyway. Lucky he didn't get me on a bad day!!!
As for anything else, I'm not prone to making comments about the shape and length of the collective, or anything similar.
Incidentally, have any female instructors out there had experience of this situation in reverse? I am hoping to become an instructor one day and I just wondered if male students behave themselves and listen to female instructors just as much as they would male instructors. I would hope to be treated as a pilot and like any other instructor.
So, to get to the point - I've had nothing along the lines of this thread. And most students appear to listen to me...as far as I can tell. About the only thing vaguely along those lines that I remember, a few months ago....
I arrive at the arifield; the CFI is out flying. My trial lesson student arrives, complete with wife and family. I tell him the CFI is out flying, and our helicopter will be back soon. He chats to wife and looks around. Time passes, and I figure I'd better give him a briefing, so ask him to come into the briefing room. I vaguely notice his bemused expression, but people are often nervous and unsure of themselves when coming for a trial lesson, so I think nothing of it, and chat and try to put him at his ease in my usual fashion. He then says: "I know this must sound a bit silly, but I didn't realise that there were women helicopter pilots".
Well, I must have been in a good mood or something, because I smiled nicely and told him that was OK, and there really weren't that many of us anyway. Lucky he didn't get me on a bad day!!!
As for anything else, I'm not prone to making comments about the shape and length of the collective, or anything similar.