Colour Blindness (merged)
Join Date: May 2003
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Sorry strewf, not sure what NATS says about colour vision, you'll have to ask them.
For the wannabees here, I went to the Flyer Professional training show at heathrow today and had a chat with Dr Sally Evans, shes the head of the Aeromedical section. She gave a really good talk about the class 1. I spoke to her after the talk about colourvision and she said that they agreed that they thought the current situation just isn't accetable and that alot more research needs to be done to see how important colours are and said that the CAA were actively reseaching this in hopes to lower the colourvision standards as it is one of the most common reason for people failing the class 1. She also stated that those of us with Class 1 medical which was gained with lanter tests will still be vaild when these changes occur and so won't affect us.
Again it sounds like things are slowly moving in the right direction....
For the wannabees here, I went to the Flyer Professional training show at heathrow today and had a chat with Dr Sally Evans, shes the head of the Aeromedical section. She gave a really good talk about the class 1. I spoke to her after the talk about colourvision and she said that they agreed that they thought the current situation just isn't accetable and that alot more research needs to be done to see how important colours are and said that the CAA were actively reseaching this in hopes to lower the colourvision standards as it is one of the most common reason for people failing the class 1. She also stated that those of us with Class 1 medical which was gained with lanter tests will still be vaild when these changes occur and so won't affect us.
Again it sounds like things are slowly moving in the right direction....
Join Date: Sep 2004
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The CAA is working in a project with the ICAO together and the German Association Colours in Cockpit was told that the results are due beginning of 2005, so they should be released pretty soon.
Good news to hear that the lantern test will be valid even when they change the system, I just passed in Amsterdam the Holmes Wright test and I just applied for Lufthansa and don't want to be kicked because of my colour vision problem.
Good news to hear that the lantern test will be valid even when they change the system, I just passed in Amsterdam the Holmes Wright test and I just applied for Lufthansa and don't want to be kicked because of my colour vision problem.
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Does anyone know if there is a time limit for the Ishihara plates (CAA). I find that I can sometimes get the number if I stare at the pattern for about 10 seconds. Also, for the CAA class 1, how many plates do they show you and what % do you have to get right?
cheers
cheers
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With all my Medicals I had, they turned the page after 5 seconds or they marked it as an error after 5 seconds.
But maybe you get a doctor who doesn't count the seconds, however a chance to get one like that, is almost impossible, especially in an AMC.
But maybe you get a doctor who doesn't count the seconds, however a chance to get one like that, is almost impossible, especially in an AMC.
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Strewf,
If you complete a CASA class 1 medical (you can book in for one any time you choose) and fail the Isihara test, as I suspect you already have, you can go straight ahead an ask to do the practical lantern test. If passed, this will give you a class 1 medical. Once you have this, I can't see why you cannot produce this to Airservices and gain an ATC licence at the completion of training. ATC licence applicant onlt require a class 4 medical as far as I'm aware and a class 1 would cover you for this.
I personnally, failed the Isihara (miserably), then the Farnsworth (FALANT) and finally passed the "Practical Lantern test" which was a case of sitting in a dark room facing a mirror, whilst identifying a series of either white or red light combinations. I am now a Boeing captain in a major airline as a result.
Dr Arthur Pape in Geelong is a very good person to speak to if you have any problems or otherwise feel free to PM or email me.
Good luck.
Yon Garde.
If you complete a CASA class 1 medical (you can book in for one any time you choose) and fail the Isihara test, as I suspect you already have, you can go straight ahead an ask to do the practical lantern test. If passed, this will give you a class 1 medical. Once you have this, I can't see why you cannot produce this to Airservices and gain an ATC licence at the completion of training. ATC licence applicant onlt require a class 4 medical as far as I'm aware and a class 1 would cover you for this.
I personnally, failed the Isihara (miserably), then the Farnsworth (FALANT) and finally passed the "Practical Lantern test" which was a case of sitting in a dark room facing a mirror, whilst identifying a series of either white or red light combinations. I am now a Boeing captain in a major airline as a result.
Dr Arthur Pape in Geelong is a very good person to speak to if you have any problems or otherwise feel free to PM or email me.
Good luck.
Yon Garde.
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CAA Position is illogical and unfair
Brief history of my very frustrating experience with CAA follows - this shows the illogical and daft reactionary attitude to this issue.
1989 - Gain FAA License in USA and fly at night for 18 hours with no problem
1994 ish - Convert US license to UK and complete UK night rating in UK - UK night rating issued ! (based on US medical) - paid fee.
Ask CAA what happens when UK medical needed ? (logical but dumb question I now know) - advised to sit back down and undertake UK medical - take lantern test !!! - FAIL - advised that I will have a DAY VFR only restriction added to my soon to be issued UK medical (AND NO I CAN'T HAVE A REFUND FOR THE NOW DEFUNCT NIGHT RATING FEE OF £25). Very Pi?£$%ED OFF NOW.
Explain that this is all very illogical, extremely unfair and quite honestly extremely daft ! Tough luck.
Didn't give up the battle and carried on flying and gaining experience, wrote many letters to CAA top brass to no avail.
Decided to gain commercial and instructor rating, "SORRY you need a class 1 medical for JAR, but you can't have one with a colour vision prob " - But I know of instructors who have colour vision prob ? "Ah but they have UK CAA licenses not JAR, tell you what come to Gatwick before end of June (2 days away) and we will issue you a CAA class 2 medical with night restriction and then you can inherit GRANDFATHER rights for JAR medical" - confused yet ??? Are you telling me that today I can be an instructor but in a couple of days time that is no longer possible due to a beareaucratic change? "Yes". Anybody remember Reggie and sunshine deserts ?
Stick with me on this one as it gets better...... Now have very unique JAR class 1 with day only restriction - gain commercial license and instructors rating - Now eligible for IR rating due to CPL even though others with night vision problem cannot gain IR ??? - CAA now getting pissed off with the illogical situation and having heard that others are gaining unrestricted JAR CLASS 1 medicals from other countries decide that it would be a jolly good idea to transfer restrictions from my medical to my license.
Current situation after spending lots of money on CPL/Instructor etc
UK CPL/Instructor but restricted to daytime only, no public transport, UK airspace only, UK aircraft only.
OK so why am I more dangerous if I fly in another country, in another countries Cessna?, why can't I do public transport during daytime only? "you might be under commercial pressure to fly after dark" (not if my employer doesn't do night flights)
Now that I have got this 15 year nightmare off my chest I feel much better - Don't hold your breath waiting for old duffers in grey suits to realise that this is a farce and is not related to safety but merely power and dogma.
FAA attitude = No problem (passed tower signal light test and issued a waiver) - "fly what you like when you like"
I will now stop banging my head against a very large brick wall and go with the more enlightened system, save money and fulfil my true potential. Would dearly love to gain UK IR but if I cannot fly for a UK commercial operator then I will put the £10k to better use.
Moral of the story (from somebody with hard won experience) - DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOR CAA !
P.S. Any good lawyers out there who represent AOPA or other interested parties who would like to use my experience as a test case to challenge the current laws - any decent lawyer should be able to demonstrate an illogical and reactive system of rulemaking on the hoof.
1989 - Gain FAA License in USA and fly at night for 18 hours with no problem
1994 ish - Convert US license to UK and complete UK night rating in UK - UK night rating issued ! (based on US medical) - paid fee.
Ask CAA what happens when UK medical needed ? (logical but dumb question I now know) - advised to sit back down and undertake UK medical - take lantern test !!! - FAIL - advised that I will have a DAY VFR only restriction added to my soon to be issued UK medical (AND NO I CAN'T HAVE A REFUND FOR THE NOW DEFUNCT NIGHT RATING FEE OF £25). Very Pi?£$%ED OFF NOW.
Explain that this is all very illogical, extremely unfair and quite honestly extremely daft ! Tough luck.
Didn't give up the battle and carried on flying and gaining experience, wrote many letters to CAA top brass to no avail.
Decided to gain commercial and instructor rating, "SORRY you need a class 1 medical for JAR, but you can't have one with a colour vision prob " - But I know of instructors who have colour vision prob ? "Ah but they have UK CAA licenses not JAR, tell you what come to Gatwick before end of June (2 days away) and we will issue you a CAA class 2 medical with night restriction and then you can inherit GRANDFATHER rights for JAR medical" - confused yet ??? Are you telling me that today I can be an instructor but in a couple of days time that is no longer possible due to a beareaucratic change? "Yes". Anybody remember Reggie and sunshine deserts ?
Stick with me on this one as it gets better...... Now have very unique JAR class 1 with day only restriction - gain commercial license and instructors rating - Now eligible for IR rating due to CPL even though others with night vision problem cannot gain IR ??? - CAA now getting pissed off with the illogical situation and having heard that others are gaining unrestricted JAR CLASS 1 medicals from other countries decide that it would be a jolly good idea to transfer restrictions from my medical to my license.
Current situation after spending lots of money on CPL/Instructor etc
UK CPL/Instructor but restricted to daytime only, no public transport, UK airspace only, UK aircraft only.
OK so why am I more dangerous if I fly in another country, in another countries Cessna?, why can't I do public transport during daytime only? "you might be under commercial pressure to fly after dark" (not if my employer doesn't do night flights)
Now that I have got this 15 year nightmare off my chest I feel much better - Don't hold your breath waiting for old duffers in grey suits to realise that this is a farce and is not related to safety but merely power and dogma.
FAA attitude = No problem (passed tower signal light test and issued a waiver) - "fly what you like when you like"
I will now stop banging my head against a very large brick wall and go with the more enlightened system, save money and fulfil my true potential. Would dearly love to gain UK IR but if I cannot fly for a UK commercial operator then I will put the £10k to better use.
Moral of the story (from somebody with hard won experience) - DON'T HOLD YOUR BREATH FOR CAA !
P.S. Any good lawyers out there who represent AOPA or other interested parties who would like to use my experience as a test case to challenge the current laws - any decent lawyer should be able to demonstrate an illogical and reactive system of rulemaking on the hoof.
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It means that as the rules stand at the moment I cannot fly paying passengers on a commercial flight from A to B under an AOC (I can however fly trial lessons from A to B within a certain range), I can gain an ATPL license but I won't be able to put it to practical use.
Summary: Can achieve ATPL status but cannot fly paying passengers ? cannot cross international boundaries on commercial operation with no passengers and cannot use non UK aircraft (e.g. French or other JAR registration), cannot teach UK ppl syllabus anywhere but in the UK unless I ask permission from the state in question (despite being an FAA licensed PPL with an FAA Class 1 medical) - AND ALL BECAUSE THE CAA THINK THAT I AM UNSAFE DURING SUNDOWN TO SUNRISE - If anybody can make a logical link between the first letter on an aircraft registration, the skill needed to fly from one territory to another and the ability to see colours at night go for it !
Summary: Can achieve ATPL status but cannot fly paying passengers ? cannot cross international boundaries on commercial operation with no passengers and cannot use non UK aircraft (e.g. French or other JAR registration), cannot teach UK ppl syllabus anywhere but in the UK unless I ask permission from the state in question (despite being an FAA licensed PPL with an FAA Class 1 medical) - AND ALL BECAUSE THE CAA THINK THAT I AM UNSAFE DURING SUNDOWN TO SUNRISE - If anybody can make a logical link between the first letter on an aircraft registration, the skill needed to fly from one territory to another and the ability to see colours at night go for it !
For anyone interested, I've recently seen a virtually new Ishihara colour test book for sale on eBay! Not sure what it'll go for but I've seen it for sale on Amazon for £120!
Could be useful, if you know what I mean
Could be useful, if you know what I mean
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They use different editions of the plates, but its also a stupid thing to do. If you can't honest pass the tests then you shouldn't be flying.
Its just as bad about lying about any other medical problem. If you get found out then it will mean you lose your licence and any chance of having a career.
Its just as bad about lying about any other medical problem. If you get found out then it will mean you lose your licence and any chance of having a career.
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"If you can't honest pass the tests then you shouldn't be flying"
Now thats what I call a blanket statement Blinkz !
I agree with your sentiment that cheating on the tests is not the right thing to do but there are many colour blind pilots flying around the world quite happily without any problems ! Just ask the FAA how many pilots hold waivers for the condition, same pilots fly into and out of major UK airports whilst UK pilots are not given the same opportunities
You probably think that this is dangerous - well think about this fact 10% of the male population suffers from colour "blindness" - So how come there aren't lots of crashes because people didn't see a red amber or green traffic light !, how come the DOT doesn't restrict people to day time driving only ?
Answer = Because it is Bull£$%it !!!!!
Now thats what I call a blanket statement Blinkz !
I agree with your sentiment that cheating on the tests is not the right thing to do but there are many colour blind pilots flying around the world quite happily without any problems ! Just ask the FAA how many pilots hold waivers for the condition, same pilots fly into and out of major UK airports whilst UK pilots are not given the same opportunities
You probably think that this is dangerous - well think about this fact 10% of the male population suffers from colour "blindness" - So how come there aren't lots of crashes because people didn't see a red amber or green traffic light !, how come the DOT doesn't restrict people to day time driving only ?
Answer = Because it is Bull£$%it !!!!!
I failed one out of about 20 of the plates in the UK, and am being referred to the lantern test at Gatwick. The doctor said he's never known anyone so borderline to fail the lantern test, so there's hope I guess! If I pass the lantern test there will I be able to get an unrestricted medical certificate?
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Flew a while ago, couldn't pass all the plates and doctors would use the Giles Archer Lantern and such like.
With old lanterns, greens look very clean (almost white) and whites dirty (almost beige); if I kept this in mind (and remained calm) I could pass no problem, obtained both class III & class II medicals.
Reckon I'm technically weak on green and white, tho' watching tennis/cricket matches or green & white lights is not a problem at all in real life.
Like to start flying again; but if I go to Gatwick for a Beynes and fail have I closed the door on myself or should I explore some other avenue first?
Such as going off to Germany/Europe/Australia?
With old lanterns, greens look very clean (almost white) and whites dirty (almost beige); if I kept this in mind (and remained calm) I could pass no problem, obtained both class III & class II medicals.
Reckon I'm technically weak on green and white, tho' watching tennis/cricket matches or green & white lights is not a problem at all in real life.
Like to start flying again; but if I go to Gatwick for a Beynes and fail have I closed the door on myself or should I explore some other avenue first?
Such as going off to Germany/Europe/Australia?
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Colour blindness
Hello everybody.
Anyone out there with troubles n the bloody japanese tables? Can't get those numbers at all!!! However I have been tested with the lanter both in USA (tower handlight, very easygoing...) and in Italy. Italian Ist class has been reconized as JAA compliant but I would get rid of any doubt and take it in UK. How far do they strech you with eye's exams? Everything is spotless, so far and I renewed my Ist for the fourth time last january.
Blue skies everybody
PZ
Anyone out there with troubles n the bloody japanese tables? Can't get those numbers at all!!! However I have been tested with the lanter both in USA (tower handlight, very easygoing...) and in Italy. Italian Ist class has been reconized as JAA compliant but I would get rid of any doubt and take it in UK. How far do they strech you with eye's exams? Everything is spotless, so far and I renewed my Ist for the fourth time last january.
Blue skies everybody
PZ
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You are right, PZ, Italy has been recommended for mutual recognition by JAA under JAR-FCL 3 (Medical).
As I understand it, the CAA should accept and issue a UK JAA Class 1 on the strength of your Italian JAA Class 1 without further testing.
The CAA eye exam is very thorough and as far as colour vision goes you get three bites of the apple.
1. Ishihara plates, which as you state, you cannot do
2. Beynes Lantern Test
Single coloured light - one at a time - white, green, red, amber, blue. Viewed in a mirror (Total reflected distance approx. 5-6 metres) in a darkened room with a lamp illuminating a patch of wall alongside the mirror. No errors permitted.
3. Holmes-Wright Type A Lantern Test
Pairs of lights - various combinations of white, red and green.
Lit room and again in same mirror. If one error is made (Possibly two) the test can be retaken in a darkened room after a period of light adaptation. No errors permitted in darkened room.
Obviously if you fail all three, you wil get a deviation issued to your CAA issued Cl.1 restricting you to daytime flight only (IFR is permitted) and no public transport, i.e. passenger carrying, flights.
If you have an unrestricted JAA Cl.1 from a mutually recognised state which you can exchange for a CAA issued JAA Cl.1 without further testing, why muddy the waters and take the risk? Just do the straight swap.
Hope this helps,
2close
As I understand it, the CAA should accept and issue a UK JAA Class 1 on the strength of your Italian JAA Class 1 without further testing.
The CAA eye exam is very thorough and as far as colour vision goes you get three bites of the apple.
1. Ishihara plates, which as you state, you cannot do
2. Beynes Lantern Test
Single coloured light - one at a time - white, green, red, amber, blue. Viewed in a mirror (Total reflected distance approx. 5-6 metres) in a darkened room with a lamp illuminating a patch of wall alongside the mirror. No errors permitted.
3. Holmes-Wright Type A Lantern Test
Pairs of lights - various combinations of white, red and green.
Lit room and again in same mirror. If one error is made (Possibly two) the test can be retaken in a darkened room after a period of light adaptation. No errors permitted in darkened room.
Obviously if you fail all three, you wil get a deviation issued to your CAA issued Cl.1 restricting you to daytime flight only (IFR is permitted) and no public transport, i.e. passenger carrying, flights.
If you have an unrestricted JAA Cl.1 from a mutually recognised state which you can exchange for a CAA issued JAA Cl.1 without further testing, why muddy the waters and take the risk? Just do the straight swap.
Hope this helps,
2close
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20driver said: Does anyone know where you can take the lantern test in the US? All my inquires have lead to a dead end.
Thanks
------------------------------------------
*Best question in this whole thread, and believe me, I read the whole thing.
**I'm going through the same thing, and I'm quite fearful because of the lack of facilities in America for falant, and so forth. That and I really don't want to be left on with with SODA as the last option.
***Personally I've bought this first.
http://www.guldenophthalmics.com/ccp...+&cat=&catstr=
I just want to know what I'm getting in to. When I self-test, I usually get 2-3 wrong...and ocassionally one. So the fear of not knowing multiple locations (for this test) is in me as I know in you.
****Then I looked at agencies e.g
http://www.aviationmedicine.com/whatwedo.htm
http://www.leftseat.com/falant.htm
They both offer you locations, but the latter only w/service. I asked the first one for the locations, and got three more additional locations than I previously held. note: they offer services in getting the paperwork done. While it can be done by one self, I might personally be lazy and use the first one (link), once I pass. 400 isn't that bad for a lifetime of flight.
*****Here are the locations that I have accumulated. Note: I haven't verified all of them, ...consider the top ones the most dependable. Please email me if you find any further locations for this test or any other (at [email protected])
Thanks, and I wish all of you the best
; )
1) Robert L. Yolton, PhD, OD
Pacific University College of Optometry
2043 College Way
Forest Grove, Oregon 97116
(503) 357-6151 Farnsworth (FALANT)
2) Dr. Michael Crognale, PhD
Color Vision Assessment Clinic FALANT, Dvorine 2nd ed, Ishirara 38 plate
University of Nevada – Reno
775-784-6828 x 2030 or 2022
3) Pacific Medical Center
206-505-1100
1101 Madison St. 7th floor
Seattle, WA 98104 FARNSWORTH LANTERN
No appt required, No Fee Visit 0900-1130 or 1300-1500
4)William Moracco
(302) 598-3698
Flightsight.com
East Coast----Highly reccomended by aviationmedicine.com, and reccomend the next one on the west coast.
5)Wayne Verdon
510-643-0863
[email protected]
I haven't verified him, but this likely will be the person I meet with first.
6)University Optometric Center
33 West 42nd Street
at Bryant Park
New York, NY 10036
212 780-4950
[email protected]
http://www.sunyopt.edu/uoc/color_vision.shtml
Should have test...based on above link.
7)University of Texas Medical Branch
Aviation Medicine Center
Not much info...solely based on this:
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400a/F...02/Letters.htm
8)NASA-JSC in Texas
Info from seven.
9)Richard Hackman (considered contact) 792-5568 x69
Naval Air Station, Pensacola, FL
He's documented cases; reccomends
contacting military bases...last resort
other than SODA. note: not quite sure he performs the test, but I'm sure he knows where to go.
Thanks
------------------------------------------
*Best question in this whole thread, and believe me, I read the whole thing.
**I'm going through the same thing, and I'm quite fearful because of the lack of facilities in America for falant, and so forth. That and I really don't want to be left on with with SODA as the last option.
***Personally I've bought this first.
http://www.guldenophthalmics.com/ccp...+&cat=&catstr=
I just want to know what I'm getting in to. When I self-test, I usually get 2-3 wrong...and ocassionally one. So the fear of not knowing multiple locations (for this test) is in me as I know in you.
****Then I looked at agencies e.g
http://www.aviationmedicine.com/whatwedo.htm
http://www.leftseat.com/falant.htm
They both offer you locations, but the latter only w/service. I asked the first one for the locations, and got three more additional locations than I previously held. note: they offer services in getting the paperwork done. While it can be done by one self, I might personally be lazy and use the first one (link), once I pass. 400 isn't that bad for a lifetime of flight.
*****Here are the locations that I have accumulated. Note: I haven't verified all of them, ...consider the top ones the most dependable. Please email me if you find any further locations for this test or any other (at [email protected])
Thanks, and I wish all of you the best
; )
1) Robert L. Yolton, PhD, OD
Pacific University College of Optometry
2043 College Way
Forest Grove, Oregon 97116
(503) 357-6151 Farnsworth (FALANT)
2) Dr. Michael Crognale, PhD
Color Vision Assessment Clinic FALANT, Dvorine 2nd ed, Ishirara 38 plate
University of Nevada – Reno
775-784-6828 x 2030 or 2022
3) Pacific Medical Center
206-505-1100
1101 Madison St. 7th floor
Seattle, WA 98104 FARNSWORTH LANTERN
No appt required, No Fee Visit 0900-1130 or 1300-1500
4)William Moracco
(302) 598-3698
Flightsight.com
East Coast----Highly reccomended by aviationmedicine.com, and reccomend the next one on the west coast.
5)Wayne Verdon
510-643-0863
[email protected]
I haven't verified him, but this likely will be the person I meet with first.
6)University Optometric Center
33 West 42nd Street
at Bryant Park
New York, NY 10036
212 780-4950
[email protected]
http://www.sunyopt.edu/uoc/color_vision.shtml
Should have test...based on above link.
7)University of Texas Medical Branch
Aviation Medicine Center
Not much info...solely based on this:
http://www.cami.jccbi.gov/aam-400a/F...02/Letters.htm
8)NASA-JSC in Texas
Info from seven.
9)Richard Hackman (considered contact) 792-5568 x69
Naval Air Station, Pensacola, FL
He's documented cases; reccomends
contacting military bases...last resort
other than SODA. note: not quite sure he performs the test, but I'm sure he knows where to go.
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SODA
Well, hope this help...
I took my SODA at KVNY's FSDO with the FAA folks. I did it in daytime both in direct light and shadow conditions. Beware! White light shoot, we seen in the shadow looks a pale yellow. I said so and the FAA officer agreed, but it was spine-chilling...! So make sure that all you see is either white, green or red. nothing else! If you fail you can take it at night and after that...look for a FO job as the top of your job options!
By the way: I contacted dr. William Monaco. I seems very kind and it could be a safer option.
Best luck
PZ
I took my SODA at KVNY's FSDO with the FAA folks. I did it in daytime both in direct light and shadow conditions. Beware! White light shoot, we seen in the shadow looks a pale yellow. I said so and the FAA officer agreed, but it was spine-chilling...! So make sure that all you see is either white, green or red. nothing else! If you fail you can take it at night and after that...look for a FO job as the top of your job options!
By the way: I contacted dr. William Monaco. I seems very kind and it could be a safer option.
Best luck
PZ