Agusta A109
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This article is from the most recent Helidata so I hope they dont mind me posting it here but I thought it may be of interest considering my recent discussions with TC in relation to conventional Tail Rotor merits:
'US Coast Guard trials with the re-engined Eurocopter HH-65A 6560 (aka Dauphin), powered by Turbomeca Arriel 2 engines, have shown that the type is still not as responsive as the Agusta MH-68A Stingray (aka A109E) helicopter in combatting drug running go-fast boats.
The trials, carried out in mid July from the Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, were aimed at seeing how quickly the HH-65A could respond to sudden course changes by a fast moving boat, in particular allowing the door gunner to remain on target. In fact it was discovered that the aircraft is less manoueverable than the A109E/MH-68A, in use by the Coast Guard HITRON (Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron) Unit, due to the Fenestron being blanked by the end plate fins in certain airflow situations. The result probably rules out the upgraded HH-65 being used for future armed interdiction missions of this type'
'US Coast Guard trials with the re-engined Eurocopter HH-65A 6560 (aka Dauphin), powered by Turbomeca Arriel 2 engines, have shown that the type is still not as responsive as the Agusta MH-68A Stingray (aka A109E) helicopter in combatting drug running go-fast boats.
The trials, carried out in mid July from the Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, were aimed at seeing how quickly the HH-65A could respond to sudden course changes by a fast moving boat, in particular allowing the door gunner to remain on target. In fact it was discovered that the aircraft is less manoueverable than the A109E/MH-68A, in use by the Coast Guard HITRON (Helicopter Interdiction Tactical Squadron) Unit, due to the Fenestron being blanked by the end plate fins in certain airflow situations. The result probably rules out the upgraded HH-65 being used for future armed interdiction missions of this type'
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to eurobolkow: with regards to the fenestron and skids, only was commenting on kit that is in prototype testing stage. having seen both personally i can confirm their existance. as for skids, over wheels, in some applications, they have many distinct advantages, and for some operators a must have option.
dr
dr
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Chopper DR:
The wheels versus skids arguement works both ways, there are numerous ops where wheels are a distinct advantage and a must have option.
Actually it is no coincidence that most new gen military aircraft (including Eurocopter products) are fitted with wheeled undercarriage.
The wheels versus skids arguement works both ways, there are numerous ops where wheels are a distinct advantage and a must have option.
Actually it is no coincidence that most new gen military aircraft (including Eurocopter products) are fitted with wheeled undercarriage.
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eurobolkow: no debate, correct on both counts. still on this side of the pond the skid still seems the way to go for the para-military crowd, as for eurocopter one only has to look at the -135 / 145 to see skids still have much to offer. send a pm, have some jpegs you might be interested in
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We would have bought a 109 with skids had one been available. Skids we presume are better than wheels on soft ground and skids would be lighter giving better payload.
I did see the skidded 109 at the works in Italy and would have loved to operate it.
Look how good the Koala is with it's skids.
I did see the skidded 109 at the works in Italy and would have loved to operate it.
Look how good the Koala is with it's skids.
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Head Turner :
There is little doubt that skids are a simpler solution to load distribution and thus are lighter, however the evidence that skids perform better on soft ground would seem to be completely unsubstantiated, in fact on unprepared terrain wheels can often be a distinct advantage due to more accurate placement.
So the down side is a more complex and thus heavier configuration, the plus side is a more aerodynamically efficient aircraft which is reflected in speed.
There is little doubt that skids are a simpler solution to load distribution and thus are lighter, however the evidence that skids perform better on soft ground would seem to be completely unsubstantiated, in fact on unprepared terrain wheels can often be a distinct advantage due to more accurate placement.
So the down side is a more complex and thus heavier configuration, the plus side is a more aerodynamically efficient aircraft which is reflected in speed.
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A109E Drivers
Hellow all
We have just started operating the 109E, and carried out a good amount of research on the aircraft but I am always interested to hear opinions.
What do you think of?
1. The autopilot in IMC single pilot IFR, good and bad wx ie turbulence.
2. Electrical system, EDU,s/DAU/ECU, EFIS, any failures or problems.
3. The aircrafts performance in general, such as unscheduled maintanence and DOC's.
4. Any other tricks we should know about, such as (Has anyone found a cloud full of ice).
Appericeate you replies.
We have just started operating the 109E, and carried out a good amount of research on the aircraft but I am always interested to hear opinions.
What do you think of?
1. The autopilot in IMC single pilot IFR, good and bad wx ie turbulence.
2. Electrical system, EDU,s/DAU/ECU, EFIS, any failures or problems.
3. The aircrafts performance in general, such as unscheduled maintanence and DOC's.
4. Any other tricks we should know about, such as (Has anyone found a cloud full of ice).
Appericeate you replies.
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A 109E
In reply:
1/ Autopilot - similar to the steam powered one in the Bell 212/412. It was a Sperry Pilot although now it wears Agusta badges. It seems to work OK.
2/ EDU - if you have a fault, check to see what it is before you turn off the Master Switch. The memory is volatile. Engine faults are displayed in a hexidecimal dump and need to be interpreted. If you know what the problem is it is easily fixed.
DAU - remember that 2 yellow indications of CH.A and CH.B. is a no go item. CH.A should be green.
ECU - make sure that any connectors on the engine have been treated with "conductivity enhancer and the connectors are torqued correctly. If they are loose and vibrate you will have sensor failures which will place the ECU in "Manual". How you actually get to these connectors is anyones guess.
EFIS - depends whether Kratos or Collins.
3/ Performance - does what it says it will. Just be aware of what it really sez. You have to laugh at the loading examples in the RFM - EEW 1500 kg????? Depending on your fuel state as already elaborated here then some of the seats are ornamental.
Reliability - OK if you keep on top of it. (read money). As someone indicated to me once, like a Ferrari it is the fastest way to get to where you will break down next.
4/ Ice - we don't operate here in clouds that are lkely to have ice in them although I have flown in icing/freezing rain. The general consensus is from experience that because the aircraft is so clean it doesn't tend to stick. The first place you will see ice is if you look up through the overhead window at the vertical part of the pitot tubes. The TR is behind the LH exhaust judging by the amount of soot on it. I have parked overnight in -35C reluctantly. It takes forever to get everything working again. LC displays, T&P's etc.
Other tricks -
1/ Be careful who tows it - N/Wheel lock off and brakes off. If not you will break things and possibly damage the nose actuator attachment as well. One in Australia has already fallen on its face for possibly this reason.......
2/ Always use wheel chocks with the park brake off and don't leave yours behind. That way if someone does try to tow without your knowledge you will not incur as above.
3/ Be aware of the consequences of a boost pump failure - G-DPPH
4/ Be aware of the consequences of a swashplate drive link being incorrectly installed - G-TVAA and G-JRSL. Not sure whether this has been ruled out in this case either - G-PWER
5/ DOC's are irrelevant in the scale of things as the fixed costs far outweigh them.
6/ Keep your eye on engine oil temps - some thermo valves have been known to malfunction.
7/ MGB temps - it is not uncommon to see 100C in warmer months.
8/ Turbulence can bring on the MGB Pressure Master Caution. Doesn't help adding to the pax already high pucker factor.
9/ Make sure on a retract test that the nosewheel cannot rotate when up. It should be clamped by the doors. If not it will rotate in flight and on extension it will eat the door and probably break a hinge.
10/ Only check your MGB level after stopping the rotor WITHOUT using the brake, otherwise you have no real idea.
11/ The MGB filter bypass turkey timer is hard to see on a preflight.
12/ If you have to cage an engine in flight due to fire - remember you have about 4 different methods available to shut down the wrong engine. Engine Mode Selector, Power Lever, Fire extuinguisher panel and Fuel Valve.
13/ Keep your eye on the tailboom............ if there are cracks they are hard to see depending on the paint colour.
It is an Italian piece of machinery after all.........
1/ Autopilot - similar to the steam powered one in the Bell 212/412. It was a Sperry Pilot although now it wears Agusta badges. It seems to work OK.
2/ EDU - if you have a fault, check to see what it is before you turn off the Master Switch. The memory is volatile. Engine faults are displayed in a hexidecimal dump and need to be interpreted. If you know what the problem is it is easily fixed.
DAU - remember that 2 yellow indications of CH.A and CH.B. is a no go item. CH.A should be green.
ECU - make sure that any connectors on the engine have been treated with "conductivity enhancer and the connectors are torqued correctly. If they are loose and vibrate you will have sensor failures which will place the ECU in "Manual". How you actually get to these connectors is anyones guess.
EFIS - depends whether Kratos or Collins.
3/ Performance - does what it says it will. Just be aware of what it really sez. You have to laugh at the loading examples in the RFM - EEW 1500 kg????? Depending on your fuel state as already elaborated here then some of the seats are ornamental.
Reliability - OK if you keep on top of it. (read money). As someone indicated to me once, like a Ferrari it is the fastest way to get to where you will break down next.
4/ Ice - we don't operate here in clouds that are lkely to have ice in them although I have flown in icing/freezing rain. The general consensus is from experience that because the aircraft is so clean it doesn't tend to stick. The first place you will see ice is if you look up through the overhead window at the vertical part of the pitot tubes. The TR is behind the LH exhaust judging by the amount of soot on it. I have parked overnight in -35C reluctantly. It takes forever to get everything working again. LC displays, T&P's etc.
Other tricks -
1/ Be careful who tows it - N/Wheel lock off and brakes off. If not you will break things and possibly damage the nose actuator attachment as well. One in Australia has already fallen on its face for possibly this reason.......
2/ Always use wheel chocks with the park brake off and don't leave yours behind. That way if someone does try to tow without your knowledge you will not incur as above.
3/ Be aware of the consequences of a boost pump failure - G-DPPH
4/ Be aware of the consequences of a swashplate drive link being incorrectly installed - G-TVAA and G-JRSL. Not sure whether this has been ruled out in this case either - G-PWER
5/ DOC's are irrelevant in the scale of things as the fixed costs far outweigh them.
6/ Keep your eye on engine oil temps - some thermo valves have been known to malfunction.
7/ MGB temps - it is not uncommon to see 100C in warmer months.
8/ Turbulence can bring on the MGB Pressure Master Caution. Doesn't help adding to the pax already high pucker factor.
9/ Make sure on a retract test that the nosewheel cannot rotate when up. It should be clamped by the doors. If not it will rotate in flight and on extension it will eat the door and probably break a hinge.
10/ Only check your MGB level after stopping the rotor WITHOUT using the brake, otherwise you have no real idea.
11/ The MGB filter bypass turkey timer is hard to see on a preflight.
12/ If you have to cage an engine in flight due to fire - remember you have about 4 different methods available to shut down the wrong engine. Engine Mode Selector, Power Lever, Fire extuinguisher panel and Fuel Valve.
13/ Keep your eye on the tailboom............ if there are cracks they are hard to see depending on the paint colour.
It is an Italian piece of machinery after all.........
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First US Order for Grand
Compliments of Helidata
'Seacor Holdings, the parent of Tex-Air Helicopters has become the US Launch Customer for the Agusta Westland A109S Grand helicopter, introduced at the Farnborough Airshow. Three aircraft have been ordered, for offshore support operations in the Gulf of Mexico.
Firm orders for the Grand, which introduces a new 3175kg (7000lb) gross weight and other upgrades, have already exceeded the 20 mark in the two months since its introduction'
'Seacor Holdings, the parent of Tex-Air Helicopters has become the US Launch Customer for the Agusta Westland A109S Grand helicopter, introduced at the Farnborough Airshow. Three aircraft have been ordered, for offshore support operations in the Gulf of Mexico.
Firm orders for the Grand, which introduces a new 3175kg (7000lb) gross weight and other upgrades, have already exceeded the 20 mark in the two months since its introduction'
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That wheels are better than skids is a question of what's best for a particular operation. Military models have either fixed wheels or retractable wheels. The Russians have the fixed large soft ground design and the American/French have the retractable smaller versions which do work well. The civil wheeled helicopters have far smaller wheels designed to operate on hard surfaces. However, there are 'bear pad' options for the Agusta to enable soft ground ops. The main problem with the wheeled civil models is that the tail rotor can come into contact with the ground after the helicopter has settled and sunk. This is rarely the problem with the military types as the T/R is set on top of a pylon thereby keeping a satisfactory clearence from the ground.
The skidded versions tend to settle and sink less and bear pads are available as options for really soft ground ops.
I prefer the skid versions for they give better payload being lighter and cost less to maintain. For the average operations I don't believe that the extra cruise speed of the wheeled versions adds up to a significant advantage.
The skidded versions tend to settle and sink less and bear pads are available as options for really soft ground ops.
I prefer the skid versions for they give better payload being lighter and cost less to maintain. For the average operations I don't believe that the extra cruise speed of the wheeled versions adds up to a significant advantage.
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JAR Agusta 109 type rating
Any idea how much a 109 IFR type rating should cost in the UK? Obviously I can get a quote fairly easily but what would consitute a "good price"? Any recommendations?
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hey Mr 99,
Obviously PM's have there uses, e.g. discussing personal info or talking about people who may not want to be talked about on an open forum yada yada yada.
But i would have quite liked to know the answer to that question, also how many hours were involved etc etc.
My own experience of an S76 IFR rating was that it was a 12 hour course approx to cover all the visual and instrument bits and to do the LPC, how much it cost I have no idea (cos luckily I didnt pay for it). I would be interested to hear about other types eg A109
But I dont like this going straight to private messaging business as it takes away the point of reading the forum if I never find out the answer.
well whadya fink? let me in on the answer or what?
regards
CF
Obviously PM's have there uses, e.g. discussing personal info or talking about people who may not want to be talked about on an open forum yada yada yada.
But i would have quite liked to know the answer to that question, also how many hours were involved etc etc.
My own experience of an S76 IFR rating was that it was a 12 hour course approx to cover all the visual and instrument bits and to do the LPC, how much it cost I have no idea (cos luckily I didnt pay for it). I would be interested to hear about other types eg A109
But I dont like this going straight to private messaging business as it takes away the point of reading the forum if I never find out the answer.
well whadya fink? let me in on the answer or what?
regards
CF
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Deleted by requist
Inviting people who ask for advice in this forum to contact you off-line for your own commercial reasons is not acceptable.
Heliport
Inviting people who ask for advice in this forum to contact you off-line for your own commercial reasons is not acceptable.
Heliport
Last edited by Bravo 99 (AJB); 24th Nov 2004 at 09:14.
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Heard recently that, earlier this year, Agusta and Sloane paid the claims brought by Pete and Steve.
Unusually, the usually superb AAIB investigators initially missed the cause of Pete's accident. The actual cause (scissors-link fitting) only came to light following the second (TVAA) accident.
Both pilots did a great job coping with the emergencies.
They received substantial sums in damages. Good for them.
Pete was in the news again recently. He and a paramedic from Teesside Air Ambulance bravely did a superb job rescuing a driver trapped in his car in a flooded and fast-flowing river.
Unusually, the usually superb AAIB investigators initially missed the cause of Pete's accident. The actual cause (scissors-link fitting) only came to light following the second (TVAA) accident.
Both pilots did a great job coping with the emergencies.
They received substantial sums in damages. Good for them.
Pete was in the news again recently. He and a paramedic from Teesside Air Ambulance bravely did a superb job rescuing a driver trapped in his car in a flooded and fast-flowing river.
Crazy Scandihooligan
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Helo riders
Seems like Capt. Pete Barnes is getting alot of press recently.
Sounds like the engineer is gonna get the can for this scissor link, failure, as for FADEC being blamed, is that not a cop out here?
Great job by the pilots here
MD
Sounds like the engineer is gonna get the can for this scissor link, failure, as for FADEC being blamed, is that not a cop out here?
Great job by the pilots here
MD
MD900:
There are two accident reports which relate, one to G-JRSL and one to G-TVAA.
It seems the drawings in the maintenance manual were not detailed enough, and the parts designed in such a way, as to preclude fitting in the wrong manner.
As always, the chain relating to these accidents was started long before the incident flights themselves.
There are two accident reports which relate, one to G-JRSL and one to G-TVAA.
It seems the drawings in the maintenance manual were not detailed enough, and the parts designed in such a way, as to preclude fitting in the wrong manner.
As always, the chain relating to these accidents was started long before the incident flights themselves.
From the little evidence presented on this thread, any praise of the 109 is a bit ill founded isn't it? Designing such a critical system with such a fitment flaw is an old no no . Where is Lu Z to comment on this? Lu did the some Augusta design testing.
Secondly, is there no rigging check post scissor link change or disconnect? Not even the usual flat pitch TQ check prior to lift off? Or is there no discernable difference on rigging and pitch with the scissor incorrectly installed?
Sounds like the pilots in all cases did a great job to land post pitch failure - and flyerh did you say one was in cloud at night with a loss of instruments as well - or was that talking about a "what if"?
Secondly, is there no rigging check post scissor link change or disconnect? Not even the usual flat pitch TQ check prior to lift off? Or is there no discernable difference on rigging and pitch with the scissor incorrectly installed?
Sounds like the pilots in all cases did a great job to land post pitch failure - and flyerh did you say one was in cloud at night with a loss of instruments as well - or was that talking about a "what if"?
Cornish Jack and 4R vibes bring up a very good point about the ability to install parts backwards.
It didn't stop at the Whirlwind. Anyone installed any S-76 paddles backwards recently? Apparently they make a hell of a noise when you run them up!
If it CAN be done, it WILL be done!
It didn't stop at the Whirlwind. Anyone installed any S-76 paddles backwards recently? Apparently they make a hell of a noise when you run them up!
If it CAN be done, it WILL be done!
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Thanks for posting the links Nr Fairy.
NB: The first (G-JRSL) should be read in conjunction with that on G-TVAA.
Two identical types of helicopter suffered a loss of control as a result of the fracture of swash plate scissors link attachment bolt.
This was because, in both cases, a very short time before the accidents occurred, the swash plate scissors link had been incorrectly assembled and installed.
NB: The first (G-JRSL) should be read in conjunction with that on G-TVAA.
Two identical types of helicopter suffered a loss of control as a result of the fracture of swash plate scissors link attachment bolt.
This was because, in both cases, a very short time before the accidents occurred, the swash plate scissors link had been incorrectly assembled and installed.