Police observers - passengers or crew?
Thud and blunder:
E-mail me with your name and work place, I'll do my best to get you in...You certainly received a strange response.
Jas is normally very accomodating.
Call me.
It seems ACPO want the minimum of fuss over this. By default it has played into their hands where they are not forced to make a national decision. They are hoping now that it will go away.
The Observers here either don't understand or don't care!
E-mail me with your name and work place, I'll do my best to get you in...You certainly received a strange response.
Jas is normally very accomodating.
Call me.
It seems ACPO want the minimum of fuss over this. By default it has played into their hands where they are not forced to make a national decision. They are hoping now that it will go away.
The Observers here either don't understand or don't care!
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I believe there are ACPO guidelines to be followed regarding maximum duty hours for police observers. (I don't have the details with me as I'm not on a police unit now, flying paramedics).
This followed a run of flight safety incidents at the unit I used to work at, where a police observer had worked a long run of shifts and was definitely knackered by it. Should maximum duty hours for observers be published in the PAOM?
This followed a run of flight safety incidents at the unit I used to work at, where a police observer had worked a long run of shifts and was definitely knackered by it. Should maximum duty hours for observers be published in the PAOM?
Just a numbered other
I'll point 442 to this site again so that he can (or not) flesh out the details.
Meanwhile, thanks to all contributors for their four pennorth.
I too was shown the door whilst trying to get into the other forum. Although I am an 'ex' police pilot, I still pop in to the unit with doughnuts, so please let me join
Meanwhile, thanks to all contributors for their four pennorth.
I too was shown the door whilst trying to get into the other forum. Although I am an 'ex' police pilot, I still pop in to the unit with doughnuts, so please let me join
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Dear T C
'The observers here don't understand or don't care.' Without harping on too much, I think you will find that they actually do care and hope this particular subject matter is finally satisfactorily resolved - soon.
'The observers here don't understand or don't care.' Without harping on too much, I think you will find that they actually do care and hope this particular subject matter is finally satisfactorily resolved - soon.
Nick,
We were confronted with this very issue in the US EMS business....vender operated programs used single pilot, medical crew member sitting in the "co-pilot" seat on BO, BK, and B-412's. They operated radios, assisted in navigation, tuning aircraft radios, and other "crew" tasks. Because they were hospital employees and not employees of the Part 135 operator.....then they had to be considered passengers and not crew. Each flight therefore had to be operated under 135 whereas in a non-patient , crew only, hospital operated service (where pilots, mechanics,and medical crew were all hospital employees) the flight could be operated under Part 91, until the patient was onboard.
It challenges the reality of the situation but the legal aspects are tremendous when this issue arises. As much as we wanted to consider the medical personnel as crew....the law clearly prohibited that in the legal structure that was being used at that time.
I guess the medical crew could have been contracted to the helicotper vender....and then the whole crew and aircraft could have been further leased back to the hospital.....as a way to get around that but then other legal issues arise.
We were confronted with this very issue in the US EMS business....vender operated programs used single pilot, medical crew member sitting in the "co-pilot" seat on BO, BK, and B-412's. They operated radios, assisted in navigation, tuning aircraft radios, and other "crew" tasks. Because they were hospital employees and not employees of the Part 135 operator.....then they had to be considered passengers and not crew. Each flight therefore had to be operated under 135 whereas in a non-patient , crew only, hospital operated service (where pilots, mechanics,and medical crew were all hospital employees) the flight could be operated under Part 91, until the patient was onboard.
It challenges the reality of the situation but the legal aspects are tremendous when this issue arises. As much as we wanted to consider the medical personnel as crew....the law clearly prohibited that in the legal structure that was being used at that time.
I guess the medical crew could have been contracted to the helicotper vender....and then the whole crew and aircraft could have been further leased back to the hospital.....as a way to get around that but then other legal issues arise.
What does FTL stand for?
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zaplead,
FTL stands for Flight Time Limitations. The rules provide for limitations on the number of flying hours, length of time on duty etc. to avoid pilots getting fatigued. FTL limits (in the UK) exist for pilots flying for commercial charter and/or police flying.
FTL stands for Flight Time Limitations. The rules provide for limitations on the number of flying hours, length of time on duty etc. to avoid pilots getting fatigued. FTL limits (in the UK) exist for pilots flying for commercial charter and/or police flying.
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First of all I would like to thank you all for the responses to my predicament, and Ark for the ales!
I will not post a reply at this stage as I want the proposed article checked first!
A big thank you to Mick Dunn and all at EMASU, all 3 Police Authorities and the Police Federation for their support and backing.
Oh, I nearly forgot........................... a Huge thanks to the insurers for making the last 3 1/2 years a complete nightmare
I will not post a reply at this stage as I want the proposed article checked first!
A big thank you to Mick Dunn and all at EMASU, all 3 Police Authorities and the Police Federation for their support and backing.
Oh, I nearly forgot........................... a Huge thanks to the insurers for making the last 3 1/2 years a complete nightmare
Last edited by 442; 15th Aug 2002 at 22:24.
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Evening All.
Just walked in and found this link. Serving Police Observer and very interested in the discussion. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. The boys and girls on my unit have all been updated regarding it's importance.
PPRUNE does have it's uses.
Be good and be safe and watch the Radalt.
Just walked in and found this link. Serving Police Observer and very interested in the discussion. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. The boys and girls on my unit have all been updated regarding it's importance.
PPRUNE does have it's uses.
Be good and be safe and watch the Radalt.
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CREWMEMBER
In the US most departments have a policy and procedure and this usually defines the duties and responsabilities police pilots and observers. It describes what each " crew member's" duties and responsibilites are. I do not know how Policy agencies over the pond regulate the police duties but I would imagine that there has to be some type of policy and procedures in place. If it is described in the policy and procedurs that they are CREW MEMBERS then it seems to me the case is closed. However when you deal with criminals and insurance companies never let your guard down. They both seem to br crooks.
SKYCOP9::
SKYCOP9::
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The Old Police Observer As Pax Debate
Now I thought this was sorted. However, whilst reading CAP612 I notice that the police observers are still referred to as Pax, unless I have an out of date version (unlikely as it was downloaded fromthe CAA website)
I thought after former tragic events, it was accepted they were crew. Can anyone enlighten me?
I thought after former tragic events, it was accepted they were crew. Can anyone enlighten me?
Despite the fact that, in UK, Police Air Observers undergo a formal aviation course and wear an Observer's brevet on their flight suits, they are officially passengers, as per the PAOM.
I think this belittles their duties and capabilities: those I have had the privilege to serve with in the past have been every bit as professional 'aircrew' as some that I knew in a distant military life.
Cynics might say say that if PAO were aircrew, they would be bound by CAP371 FTLs and that this would put an unbearable strain on police peopling. ('Manning', for the un-PC!)
This has all been said before....see previous threrads,wherever they've gone to.
I think this belittles their duties and capabilities: those I have had the privilege to serve with in the past have been every bit as professional 'aircrew' as some that I knew in a distant military life.
Cynics might say say that if PAO were aircrew, they would be bound by CAP371 FTLs and that this would put an unbearable strain on police peopling. ('Manning', for the un-PC!)
This has all been said before....see previous threrads,wherever they've gone to.
When I used to earn my living as a Flight Test Observer flying out of a certain airfield in Wiltshire, the flying order book (FOB) said...
"FTO are not aircrew, but they are part of the aircraft operating crew".
To this day, I still don't know what the ***** it was going on about.
G
"FTO are not aircrew, but they are part of the aircraft operating crew".
To this day, I still don't know what the ***** it was going on about.
G
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It is no change no change, as far the the Observer Vs Pax debate goes.
At a recent (ish... 5 or 6 months ago) meeting I heard that the CAA had re iterated their intent to continue (and justify) their categorisation of the Police Observers as passengers.
At a recent (ish... 5 or 6 months ago) meeting I heard that the CAA had re iterated their intent to continue (and justify) their categorisation of the Police Observers as passengers.