Police observers - passengers or crew?
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Agreed: Doesnt change the job, & probably wouldnt change the pay.
But where do you draw the line...?
The BBC camera man (experienced or otherwise) or the photographer, Im sure will not have had to sit CRM courses, E & S exams, be fire trained, first aid trained, qualified in fuel handling, know how to navigate from A2B, been on a formal CAA recognised training course, or indeed be expected to whip out some FRCs and assist the Pilot in the event of an inflight hyd failure etc etc. plus do some Police work on top..
Anyway, its an old topic.
It all be academic when aviation gets taken away from individual forces and put into a national organisation. They'll all be civvies then anyway..!
But where do you draw the line...?
The BBC camera man (experienced or otherwise) or the photographer, Im sure will not have had to sit CRM courses, E & S exams, be fire trained, first aid trained, qualified in fuel handling, know how to navigate from A2B, been on a formal CAA recognised training course, or indeed be expected to whip out some FRCs and assist the Pilot in the event of an inflight hyd failure etc etc. plus do some Police work on top..
Anyway, its an old topic.
It all be academic when aviation gets taken away from individual forces and put into a national organisation. They'll all be civvies then anyway..!
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Sorry morris1. I deleted my post due to my somewhat alcohol induced right wing stance on the matter and I didn't see page two and your post. As you say it doesn't make any difference. 
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Yes - it was the old Warsaw Convention that resticted the maximum compensation to something like £50,000 for passengers, whereas for "Crew" there was no limit.
However I think the Montreal Convention has now binned that ceiling, and that there is now no limit?
However I think the Montreal Convention has now binned that ceiling, and that there is now no limit?
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So the captain of the aircraft has to accept his passengers are now crew so that they can claim compensation in the event of a major disaster... Perfect.
Last edited by Letsby Avenue; 31st May 2005 at 16:04.
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It's all because the ANO only mentions "pax" or "crew", and you are one or the other. We, too, have observers, who do an excellent job, but as they contribute nothing to the flying of the aircraft, they are sadly "passengers". Most other countries call them "personnel essential to the operation" which neatly gets round the problem of whether you're doing aerial work as well.
Phil
Phil
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Generally, I believe, the police don't want to be regarded as crew and have to deal with the associated baggage from the CAA that comes with it. They are quite happy to be legally classed as passengers as they are aware that anyone who has any knowledge of the subject realises their true status.
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Flight Crew - Definition
The ANO 2000, Article 129 (1) defines flight crew as follows:
'Flight Crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radio operator of the aircraft. All other persons on board the aircraft, including the
police observer, are regarded as passengers.
The ANO 2000, Article 129 (1) defines flight crew as follows:
'Flight Crew' in relation to an aircraft means those members of the crew of the aircraft who respectively undertake to act as pilot, flight navigator, flight engineer and flight radio operator of the aircraft. All other persons on board the aircraft, including the
police observer, are regarded as passengers.
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I don't think it really makes a difference now that the Warsaw Convention compensation limit has been lifted.
If made crew and subject to CAA duty limitations, Observers would lose a lot of overtime...
If made crew and subject to CAA duty limitations, Observers would lose a lot of overtime...
Just a numbered other
JAFO,
You might change your frivolous tone if YOU were the one disabled for life, and staring inadequate compensation in the face because of the definition of crew or passemger.
Letsby.
I'm sure 442 will appreciate your vomit.
You might change your frivolous tone if YOU were the one disabled for life, and staring inadequate compensation in the face because of the definition of crew or passemger.
Letsby.
I'm sure 442 will appreciate your vomit.
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Thanks for that Ark - My post is duly edited. At the time this small thread had not been attached to a discusion that took place nearly six years' ago. Why it comes round every other year is anyones guess.