All change at Booker, again...?
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All change at Booker, again...?
Given that this is a RUmour NEtwork... I heard one today that suggested moves afoot at Booker again... and the eponymous owner of Gazelle G-EROL may be selling, and Time Aviation may get a new name.
Anyone else heard that, or able to put more flesh on the bones?
Anyone else heard that, or able to put more flesh on the bones?
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now let me see, my memory is as follows
Skyline became
McCarthy became
Virgin became
Skyhopper became
Flightworks became
Time
have I missed any out or got them in the wrong order?
all since about 1996, I dont understand why there is apparently little stabilty, does anyone know why it keeps changing?
Skyline became
McCarthy became
Virgin became
Skyhopper became
Flightworks became
Time
have I missed any out or got them in the wrong order?
all since about 1996, I dont understand why there is apparently little stabilty, does anyone know why it keeps changing?
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Camp Freddie et al,
I've heard that it is the same old addage "If you want to make a small fortune in aviation you must start with a big one!"
All those on your list have finished with the small one and there are plenty of others with "good new (old repackaged) ideas" who will finish the same way.
Good luck to them all - as long as they keep spending we will be alright.
Earpiece
I've heard that it is the same old addage "If you want to make a small fortune in aviation you must start with a big one!"
All those on your list have finished with the small one and there are plenty of others with "good new (old repackaged) ideas" who will finish the same way.
Good luck to them all - as long as they keep spending we will be alright.
Earpiece
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Latest info from Jim at Time on Friday is that Heli air has been on the case of buying out Time for the last two months but watch this space but dont hold your breath.
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
Sincerely
Bravo 99 (AJB)
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hey earpiece,
I agree that it is good that there are new investors all the time who will attempt to reinvent the wheel. especially when they are from a non aviation background as new money is obviously needed. although regular business rules often do not apply.
I have been around long enough to have heard supposedly new bright ideas at least 5 or 6 times, and my negative reaction to be recieved with apparent suprise when I explain that we have tried this particular half baked idea before and it definitely doesnt work, then to have to stand by while it is tried again, and guess what it still doesnt work and more investment wasted.
I was however referring to the instabilty of this particular site as 6 different companies in around 8 years does seem a bit much, compared to other operators.
is there an excessively high rent or something? or is there some other major factor?
CF
I agree that it is good that there are new investors all the time who will attempt to reinvent the wheel. especially when they are from a non aviation background as new money is obviously needed. although regular business rules often do not apply.
I have been around long enough to have heard supposedly new bright ideas at least 5 or 6 times, and my negative reaction to be recieved with apparent suprise when I explain that we have tried this particular half baked idea before and it definitely doesnt work, then to have to stand by while it is tried again, and guess what it still doesnt work and more investment wasted.
I was however referring to the instabilty of this particular site as 6 different companies in around 8 years does seem a bit much, compared to other operators.
is there an excessively high rent or something? or is there some other major factor?
CF
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Having lost ££ when Skyline went bust at Booker, I've followed the brief history since with interest. I think the problem is that they all think too big, too soon. Those 2 big hangars give people big ideas - but the facts are that you need very deep pockets to survive at the top level of heli aviation in the UK.
For training, it's just that bit too far from London - hence the Heli Air success at Denham. But for sure, Denham is now too small to contain Heli Air and the airfield owners are getting too greedy. They should be v careful - they are not the only toy shop in town.
If Denham were to cease being a helicopter training facility, then Booker would no doubt fill the gap. (And Denham is not the most rotary-friendly airfield around - no training Sat pm, no more than 3 in the circuit, and a fixed-wing brotherhood that seems to think that it's their airfield. It's a place which moans about the sound of an R22, but is quite happy to allow a biz jet to operate out of a confined runway.)
Heli Air have something like 70 orders for machines to process & certify so far this year - and Booker would let them have the space to perform this record-breaking task.
Any other heli company in Europe (or elsewhere) got an order book that big ?
For training, it's just that bit too far from London - hence the Heli Air success at Denham. But for sure, Denham is now too small to contain Heli Air and the airfield owners are getting too greedy. They should be v careful - they are not the only toy shop in town.
If Denham were to cease being a helicopter training facility, then Booker would no doubt fill the gap. (And Denham is not the most rotary-friendly airfield around - no training Sat pm, no more than 3 in the circuit, and a fixed-wing brotherhood that seems to think that it's their airfield. It's a place which moans about the sound of an R22, but is quite happy to allow a biz jet to operate out of a confined runway.)
Heli Air have something like 70 orders for machines to process & certify so far this year - and Booker would let them have the space to perform this record-breaking task.
Any other heli company in Europe (or elsewhere) got an order book that big ?
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I am struggling to see why Heliair would need Booker. They would help themselves, it appears, if they did all their certification work at Wellesbourne. It seems silly that the crates arrive at Wellesbourne, the Robbos get put together and then ferry flown to Denham for their CofA and any final bits of "completion work". Just last week Denham was too busy and two new Raven IIs had to sit at Wellesbourne for days until Denham had the space.
And there's nothing to stop a training flight taking off from Denham and then using Booker's circuit, is there? Or even base two or three at Booker rather than buying the hangars.
And there's nothing to stop a training flight taking off from Denham and then using Booker's circuit, is there? Or even base two or three at Booker rather than buying the hangars.
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"Time"for a change
the problem lies in the fact that only in house maintenence is carried out in premises that would be sufficient to staff half of microsoft U.K the cost of rent is huge hence no profit hence lots of "entusiasts"loosing lots of money.
To have a good accounting department helps of course..... the amount of un- invoiced flying over the years I have heard would of taught most of Bucks how to fly.
I feel sorry for the chaps who work there as the overall quality of instruction under Alex Hoffs eye is far superior to most schools out there.
Or as many of us who have had dealings with Wycombe over the last 12 years say, maybe the place is just jinxed
hope Heliair can make it work
To have a good accounting department helps of course..... the amount of un- invoiced flying over the years I have heard would of taught most of Bucks how to fly.
I feel sorry for the chaps who work there as the overall quality of instruction under Alex Hoffs eye is far superior to most schools out there.
Or as many of us who have had dealings with Wycombe over the last 12 years say, maybe the place is just jinxed
hope Heliair can make it work
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Let's not forget that there's already a successful heli training operation operating out of Booker (Helicopter Services) that was 'born' out of one of the changes to which the thread earlier refers. And, they are a great operation, great team with loads of experience, were fantastic to learn with and seem to have got the right formula - maybe therefore it just that the competition is too stiff at Booker to support two heli training operations? Speaking also of the money to be made out of aviation, someone told me that the only way to become a millionaire through aviation was to be a multi-millionaire before you started! :-)
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It is rumoured that the ground rent that Skyline et al pay the airfield operator for the privilege of owning their hangars on the airfield pays for the rent of the whole airfield from the local council. It has always been difficult to generate the level of business to support the massive overheads. All the different departments would need to be firing on all cylinders to make sufficient money. What seems to happen is that new owners concentrate on only one aspect of the heli business.
Thank god for angels!
Thank god for angels!
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Well can't say I'm suprised.
Unfortunately the last three attempts at the ownership of the old "Skyline" facility at Booker have been made by individuals with absoulutely no experience of the heli industry at all. Camp Freddie and headsethair have hit the nail right on the head, they all tried to get too big too soon and tried too many ideas that had been proved defective.
Skyhopper tried the "Fractional Ownership" route and had far too many salaried pilots sat around scratching their Harris' (not Leon Harris for those that know him!). FlightWorks went into the pipe dream of the Intercontinental Heli-shuttle (Breeze), Multiple Maintenance Organisations (Wycombe, Costock, Sywell) and funded the whole lot from the profits made by the FTO at Booker.
Virgin were just plain unlucky when the branding got pulled after one incident (but a very good school did rise from the ashes as 2 sticks says)
And Time Aviation have been ripped apart from the inside after the Shareholders fell out. A real shame as the staff who work their proverbials off to keep it all runninng have been there for years and have now been left up the heli-lanes without a tail rotor.
Best of Luck Alex, someone will snap you up I'm sure.
For those questioning the finances the FTO TRTO at that facility has always been very profitable and has always attracted a wide ranging customer base (even with the excellent local competition).
The Income from renting Hangarage to private owners and from the fuel sales should be enough to cover the (Not extortionate but comparatively steep) Ground Rent.
The location has always been very succesful for all aspects of charter work.
Why it hasn't worked for the previous incarnations simply comes down to the "I know it ALL" attitudes of the owners and the reluctance of the Bean Counters to listen to the people who are most experienced to advise them.
And cyclicfondler - No. If you look very carefully at the hangars you can still see the Bell and Enstrom logos peeping through - types that have not had a service centre there since Skyline (I beleive).
But at least now a successful Helicopter Operator will be taking over the reins. John Michalakis has been itching to get back into Wycombe since he left after the closure of Skyline, and now the facility will be back in very capable hands. The FTO will undoubtedly flourish, and I just hope that Heliair can lose their reservations with regards to AOC work.
Best of luck to you John & Aileen and welcome home!
(Bet Andy Russell is sick as a pig!)
Unfortunately the last three attempts at the ownership of the old "Skyline" facility at Booker have been made by individuals with absoulutely no experience of the heli industry at all. Camp Freddie and headsethair have hit the nail right on the head, they all tried to get too big too soon and tried too many ideas that had been proved defective.
Skyhopper tried the "Fractional Ownership" route and had far too many salaried pilots sat around scratching their Harris' (not Leon Harris for those that know him!). FlightWorks went into the pipe dream of the Intercontinental Heli-shuttle (Breeze), Multiple Maintenance Organisations (Wycombe, Costock, Sywell) and funded the whole lot from the profits made by the FTO at Booker.
Virgin were just plain unlucky when the branding got pulled after one incident (but a very good school did rise from the ashes as 2 sticks says)
And Time Aviation have been ripped apart from the inside after the Shareholders fell out. A real shame as the staff who work their proverbials off to keep it all runninng have been there for years and have now been left up the heli-lanes without a tail rotor.
Best of Luck Alex, someone will snap you up I'm sure.
For those questioning the finances the FTO TRTO at that facility has always been very profitable and has always attracted a wide ranging customer base (even with the excellent local competition).
The Income from renting Hangarage to private owners and from the fuel sales should be enough to cover the (Not extortionate but comparatively steep) Ground Rent.
The location has always been very succesful for all aspects of charter work.
Why it hasn't worked for the previous incarnations simply comes down to the "I know it ALL" attitudes of the owners and the reluctance of the Bean Counters to listen to the people who are most experienced to advise them.
And cyclicfondler - No. If you look very carefully at the hangars you can still see the Bell and Enstrom logos peeping through - types that have not had a service centre there since Skyline (I beleive).
But at least now a successful Helicopter Operator will be taking over the reins. John Michalakis has been itching to get back into Wycombe since he left after the closure of Skyline, and now the facility will be back in very capable hands. The FTO will undoubtedly flourish, and I just hope that Heliair can lose their reservations with regards to AOC work.
Best of luck to you John & Aileen and welcome home!
(Bet Andy Russell is sick as a pig!)
