Saftey Comparisons
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: up north (uk)
Saftey Comparisons
A friend told me he had heard that helicopters are the most dangerous form of transport there is (probably read it in something highly factual like FHM). However, I have been unable to find any stats that prove otherwise. Does anyone have anything that compares rotary travel with cars for example? I.E. fatalities per journeys made or hours of exposure? I found an article that states "the rate over the last 10 years [in the UK] stands at 23.7 fatal accidents per million [helicopter] flying hours, compared with 14.2 for comparable fixed-wing flying." But how does that compare with other "earth-bound" modes of transport?
Thanks if anyone has anything for my own peace of mind (or not) and to prove a point (or not)...
Thanks if anyone has anything for my own peace of mind (or not) and to prove a point (or not)...
Joined: Mar 2003
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From: uk
Your question has no answer - WHY?
Coach companies do not record the number of hours driven by their drivers nor the number of passengers carried during that time so how can there be a comparison. There are no records of the number of hours driven by car drivers nor the number of car occupants during their journeys. Same problem for taxi drivers and boats/cruise liners. Cyclists do not keep records.
I do not know the answer but would expect that cyclists, both pedal and engine powered are in one of the highest risk areas but where all the other travellers by mechanised forms of transport stand is anybodies guess. Coach travel seems pretty risky to me seeing that the roll-over surviveability of coaches is nigh on nil. They don't seem to have any safety requirements, like cars, boats and aircraft. But maybe they do.
So basically Your question is a matter of guess work and speculation.
Coach companies do not record the number of hours driven by their drivers nor the number of passengers carried during that time so how can there be a comparison. There are no records of the number of hours driven by car drivers nor the number of car occupants during their journeys. Same problem for taxi drivers and boats/cruise liners. Cyclists do not keep records.
I do not know the answer but would expect that cyclists, both pedal and engine powered are in one of the highest risk areas but where all the other travellers by mechanised forms of transport stand is anybodies guess. Coach travel seems pretty risky to me seeing that the roll-over surviveability of coaches is nigh on nil. They don't seem to have any safety requirements, like cars, boats and aircraft. But maybe they do.
So basically Your question is a matter of guess work and speculation.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: N2832W8100
I dont think it would really be possible to make fair comparisons, by there very nature some types of heli operations are obviously going to be more dangerous then fixed wing flying,
Statisticians won't take into account things like firefighting, flying over hostile terrain, logging, long lining and dangerous SAR missions etc etc..
Minor incidents in cars and little dents and rearending will normally go unreported, but every little thing has to be reported in a helicopter!
Flying in a space shuttle would not be the safest form of transport but wouldn't you like to give that a shot!!
Statisticians won't take into account things like firefighting, flying over hostile terrain, logging, long lining and dangerous SAR missions etc etc..
Minor incidents in cars and little dents and rearending will normally go unreported, but every little thing has to be reported in a helicopter!
Flying in a space shuttle would not be the safest form of transport but wouldn't you like to give that a shot!!
Joined: Dec 2001
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From: Philadelphia PA
I don't have numbers to put to this information, but Bell Helicopter evidently had / has data that shows helicopters to be the safest form of aerial transportation in terms of accidents per takeoff and landing (which is because we do so damn many of them).
And not by a small margin, either - evidently an order of magnitude safer than fixed wing of nearly any persuasion.
And not by a small margin, either - evidently an order of magnitude safer than fixed wing of nearly any persuasion.
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: Harwich
For information on the UK transport figures, just look at www.statistics.gov.uk and follow the pointers to transport.
Head Turner is just a little off-beam in thinking there are no figures for coaches; there are tables for the total casualties in coaches, admittedly mixed in with buses and goods vehicles, as well as for cars, motorcycles, pedal cycles and people who walked. 51% of road deaths in 2002 happened to people in cars, which make cars look dangerous.
You can also find the casualty rate expressed per thousand million vehicle kilometres, and when it's expressed that way using a motorbike looks like suicide.
Doing the old shifty-shuffle with the figures means you can determine how many kilometres were travelled by each means of transport (the tables don't give it to you directly). Trouble is, I can't see 'kilometres travelled' figures for aircraft.
In any case, particularly for helicopters, you can argue that 'time of exposure' is as critical as 'distance travelled'. I mean, how likely was I to peg it when practising landings and take-offs, when I must have travelled all of 400 yards in one hour? As opposed to 'effects of controls', when we went 50 miles in that time?
Head Turner is just a little off-beam in thinking there are no figures for coaches; there are tables for the total casualties in coaches, admittedly mixed in with buses and goods vehicles, as well as for cars, motorcycles, pedal cycles and people who walked. 51% of road deaths in 2002 happened to people in cars, which make cars look dangerous.
You can also find the casualty rate expressed per thousand million vehicle kilometres, and when it's expressed that way using a motorbike looks like suicide.
Doing the old shifty-shuffle with the figures means you can determine how many kilometres were travelled by each means of transport (the tables don't give it to you directly). Trouble is, I can't see 'kilometres travelled' figures for aircraft.
In any case, particularly for helicopters, you can argue that 'time of exposure' is as critical as 'distance travelled'. I mean, how likely was I to peg it when practising landings and take-offs, when I must have travelled all of 400 yards in one hour? As opposed to 'effects of controls', when we went 50 miles in that time?
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Off the Planet
MPD
Try this site first for information about accidents in general:
http://nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm
Another fascinating report is:
A Safety Review and Risk Assessment in Air Medical Transport
Supplement to the Air Medical Physician Handbook (November 2002)
Ira J. Blumen, MD and the UCAN Safety Committee
Mailing Address:
383 "F" Street
Salt Lake City, Utah 84103
Telephone: 801-534-0829
Fax: 801-534-0434
www.ampa.org
This is probably the most comprehensive report on helicopter accidents that you are likely to read. It also contains a comparison of personal risk that is as good as you will get (walking or jogging if crossing an intersection more dangerous than riding motorbikes).
Apart from the analysis of accident data there are: a comparison between HEMS and other Operations; principles of a safety and risk managed program; and risk management - all are covered with the same sure touch.
The report should be compulsory reading for all HEMS operators, HEMS pilots and medical crew members, and any organisation that is seriously interested in making an impact on helicopter safety.
I have no vested interest in this organisation or the authors - just recognise an excellent piece of work when I read it.
Try this site first for information about accidents in general:
http://nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm
Another fascinating report is:
A Safety Review and Risk Assessment in Air Medical Transport
Supplement to the Air Medical Physician Handbook (November 2002)
Ira J. Blumen, MD and the UCAN Safety Committee
Mailing Address:
383 "F" Street
Salt Lake City, Utah 84103
Telephone: 801-534-0829
Fax: 801-534-0434
www.ampa.org
This is probably the most comprehensive report on helicopter accidents that you are likely to read. It also contains a comparison of personal risk that is as good as you will get (walking or jogging if crossing an intersection more dangerous than riding motorbikes).
Apart from the analysis of accident data there are: a comparison between HEMS and other Operations; principles of a safety and risk managed program; and risk management - all are covered with the same sure touch.
The report should be compulsory reading for all HEMS operators, HEMS pilots and medical crew members, and any organisation that is seriously interested in making an impact on helicopter safety.
I have no vested interest in this organisation or the authors - just recognise an excellent piece of work when I read it.
Joined: Sep 2002
Aviation Qualifications: CPL
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From: Great South East, tired and retired
Why not run a little survey here?
I have been driving for 37 years, have had 3 accidents, none my fault.
Been flying for 35 years, had none at all.
(Does that mean I've got 3 coming in the next 2 years?)
The most dangerous thing you will do today is drive to the airport. After that, you are safe and sound.
I have been driving for 37 years, have had 3 accidents, none my fault.
Been flying for 35 years, had none at all.
(Does that mean I've got 3 coming in the next 2 years?)
The most dangerous thing you will do today is drive to the airport. After that, you are safe and sound.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 573
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From: uk
Something like 12% of road accidents are caused by drunken drivers. Pretty awfull statistics. However, this shows that 88% were caused by completely sober drivers.
Can I assume then that it is safter to drive when drunk as I have only a 12% risk of having a accident against the 88% risk when sober.
Numbers can prove almost anything, it is how they are presented.
I certainly feel safer when flying than driving. Because pilots have been trained and checked that they reach an accepted standard. Drivers on the other hand have one initial test and that's it. Most drivers are just able to cope with simple driving skills but hardly able when things get difficult. Pilots are trained to handle difficult situations.
So by making any kind of comparison you are open to a can of worms.
The way I see it is, that there is no like for like.
Can I assume then that it is safter to drive when drunk as I have only a 12% risk of having a accident against the 88% risk when sober.
Numbers can prove almost anything, it is how they are presented.
I certainly feel safer when flying than driving. Because pilots have been trained and checked that they reach an accepted standard. Drivers on the other hand have one initial test and that's it. Most drivers are just able to cope with simple driving skills but hardly able when things get difficult. Pilots are trained to handle difficult situations.
So by making any kind of comparison you are open to a can of worms.
The way I see it is, that there is no like for like.
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 267
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From: Queensland Australia
I'd also be interested to see some stats on those "other" forms of flying such as ultralights, hang gliders, gyrocopters, parachutes etc.
I haven't a clue or the drive to actually find them but might also be interesting. I would guess they would have to be way up there in the numbers.
I haven't a clue or the drive to actually find them but might also be interesting. I would guess they would have to be way up there in the numbers.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 39
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From: up north (uk)
Thanks for all the input. Having thought about it the first thing to do is to decide what figure most accurately represents "most dangerous form of transport". For me it would be number of fatalities to number of hours exposure (and let's keep this in the civilian world). Anything else i.e. journeys made or distance travelled is not going to give as clear a picture when helicopters are involved. And I do appreciate there are certain types of civillian flying more dangerous than others but lets bung 'em all in together.. So now that has been decided you simply (yeah right) get hold of the number of hours driven, pedalled, riden etc. and compare. Anyone?! Didn't think so...
Actually having thought about it some more there are so many variables,
Head Turner I think you are right - statistics can be used to present anything in any light you want. Listen to two arguing politicians and they will both have numbers that sing and dance for them on the same subject...
Bottom line - can of worms.
Oh well.
Cheers
Actually having thought about it some more there are so many variables,
Head Turner I think you are right - statistics can be used to present anything in any light you want. Listen to two arguing politicians and they will both have numbers that sing and dance for them on the same subject...
Bottom line - can of worms.
Oh well.
Cheers
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3
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From: FL
Stop being silly,
The most dangerous form of transport was the pickup truck that guy tied a government surplus JATO rocket to, just before he won the Darwin Award.....
There will be no way of this thread coming to a proper conclusion unless all modes of transport collect global statistics at the same level of aviation, and thats regionally patchy to say the least.
The most dangerous form of transport was the pickup truck that guy tied a government surplus JATO rocket to, just before he won the Darwin Award.....
There will be no way of this thread coming to a proper conclusion unless all modes of transport collect global statistics at the same level of aviation, and thats regionally patchy to say the least.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 813
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From: the hills of halton
http://slowroll.com/Misc/c130.shtml
A little off topic and old news but video of a dangerous form of STOL.
A little off topic and old news but video of a dangerous form of STOL.
Cool as a moosp
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 802
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From: Mostly Hong Kong
A good one I remember from statistics is that if you ride a motor bike in England for five years you have the same risk of dying as if you live within one mile of a nuclear power station that actually melts down every five years.
But the Ducatti is more fun
But the Ducatti is more fun
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 59
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From: Ripon, CA
Does anyone have a good line they use when somebody says "isn't flying those things dangerous?". I've heard the "safer than the drive to the airport" line, but theres gotta be some good ones out there. They don't necessarily have to be true, just something to make people think that flying these things isn't as dangerous as they originally percieved.
Most non-pilots I talk to think that if the engine quits in a helicopter, you're dead! After I educate them about how a helicopter can autorotate, I always tell them I actually feel safer in a helicopter than in fixed wing (dual rated), because when I arrive at the crash site I'll be travelling alot slower than I would be in an airplane...and I don't need a 1500 foot, straight, flat piece of land in front of me when I get there!
Most non-pilots I talk to think that if the engine quits in a helicopter, you're dead! After I educate them about how a helicopter can autorotate, I always tell them I actually feel safer in a helicopter than in fixed wing (dual rated), because when I arrive at the crash site I'll be travelling alot slower than I would be in an airplane...and I don't need a 1500 foot, straight, flat piece of land in front of me when I get there!
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Alderney or Lancashire UK
How about this for people who say "isn't flying dangerous? "
I tell them that I get cheaper life insurance because I fly a helicopter.
True.
When I got my PPL I decided to get some life insurance. The quote I got from a specialist aviation insurer was less than I got from the company I have my mortgage with, and that was without telling them I was a pilot.
This implies my risk of death is lower than your average 41 year old. I suppose the reasons include regular medicals and that pilots tend to extend the safety thing to normal life.
I tell them that I get cheaper life insurance because I fly a helicopter.
True.
When I got my PPL I decided to get some life insurance. The quote I got from a specialist aviation insurer was less than I got from the company I have my mortgage with, and that was without telling them I was a pilot.
This implies my risk of death is lower than your average 41 year old. I suppose the reasons include regular medicals and that pilots tend to extend the safety thing to normal life.
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 155
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From: France
I personnally know - from hand shaking/exchanging a few words to friendship - 26 pilots who died in helo accidents, 4 in the military and 22 in civilian, over a period of 32 years.
Apart from the military in wartime, any other profession that has the same stats ?
During a visit of Sheel offshore rigs with my ops manager, the field manager told us, pointing at the chopper on the deck "This is
what will kill me." Seeing disbelief on our face, he further explained that according to a Shell safety survey in transportation, helicopters are the fist cause of fatality for the company field executives, well before ground transportation. That was shortly after the North Sea accident when a S76 lost a blade.
There is not a single time when connecting to the Rotorhead forum when I do not see accident reports.
I do think flying helo is a little bit more dangerous than a desk job. I recently retired and am now riding bike, just to keep the thrill.
Cheers
ATN
Apart from the military in wartime, any other profession that has the same stats ?
During a visit of Sheel offshore rigs with my ops manager, the field manager told us, pointing at the chopper on the deck "This is
what will kill me." Seeing disbelief on our face, he further explained that according to a Shell safety survey in transportation, helicopters are the fist cause of fatality for the company field executives, well before ground transportation. That was shortly after the North Sea accident when a S76 lost a blade.
There is not a single time when connecting to the Rotorhead forum when I do not see accident reports.
I do think flying helo is a little bit more dangerous than a desk job. I recently retired and am now riding bike, just to keep the thrill.
Cheers
ATN
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 593
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From: UK
ATN: the reason you see reports of accidents here is nothing to do with quantity. It's more to do with a small community concerned for the well being of themselves and others. There really aren't that many helicopter accidents.
I attended a CAA safety seminar last year - the most dangerous types of flying in the UK are autogyro, microlight and homebuilt. They have about 4 times as many accidents per 100,000 hrs than helicopters.
Gliding ain't too hot either. (Unless the wings are rotating over your head
)
I attended a CAA safety seminar last year - the most dangerous types of flying in the UK are autogyro, microlight and homebuilt. They have about 4 times as many accidents per 100,000 hrs than helicopters.
Gliding ain't too hot either. (Unless the wings are rotating over your head
)
Last edited by headsethair; 10th April 2004 at 13:10.
