Diesel powered helicopters
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Reigniting the diesel discussion...
Just found this site on VW diesel development:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...roduces_t.html
It does seem to point the way towards smaller diesel engines which are more dependant on multiple turbo charging stages. The problem is how to ignite the charge which, when intercooled, does not achieve the same temperature prior to combustion. The VW solution is to use spark ignition (at lower power settings).
At some point turbo-diesel development will begin to challenge pure turbines for aero applications...
Mart
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...roduces_t.html
It does seem to point the way towards smaller diesel engines which are more dependant on multiple turbo charging stages. The problem is how to ignite the charge which, when intercooled, does not achieve the same temperature prior to combustion. The VW solution is to use spark ignition (at lower power settings).
At some point turbo-diesel development will begin to challenge pure turbines for aero applications...
Mart
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One of the issues here is the taxman. A stroke of the chancellors pen could pretty much eliminate the cost differential as it did with automotive fuel a few years ago.
Make no mistake. The UK Government are aware of the tax advantage of diesel and are actively looking for a way to close this 'tax loophole' according to my local MP.
If JetA1 goes to £1 a litre will tubines look so attractive?
Make no mistake. The UK Government are aware of the tax advantage of diesel and are actively looking for a way to close this 'tax loophole' according to my local MP.
If JetA1 goes to £1 a litre will tubines look so attractive?
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Question:
How will the low temperature properties of diesel fuel effect the introduction and/or use of diesel engines on helicopters? Depending on the specifications of the diesel fuel used, wax crystals will begin to form round about -5 degrees Centigrade. Heated fuel tanks, insulated fuel lines, clogged in-line filters? I appreciate that you can buy winterized diesel but what effect does that have on price?
How will the low temperature properties of diesel fuel effect the introduction and/or use of diesel engines on helicopters? Depending on the specifications of the diesel fuel used, wax crystals will begin to form round about -5 degrees Centigrade. Heated fuel tanks, insulated fuel lines, clogged in-line filters? I appreciate that you can buy winterized diesel but what effect does that have on price?
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TechHead,
When people here talk about Diesel Helicopters they are talking about reciprocating engines (i.e. piston engines) powered by Jet-A1. Jet A1 has a freezing point of -47 Deg C and doesn't wax up like road diesel so is a non-issue.
Gaseous,
That is a scary thought for this industry... one stroke of the pen to double fuel costs... You can picture the scenario... JetA1 for "export" (i.e. international airlines) will remain the same, but any fuel used purely for within the UK (i.e. 99% of our domestic helicopter industry) will be taxed at the same rate as Avgas.... arrrrgggg
When people here talk about Diesel Helicopters they are talking about reciprocating engines (i.e. piston engines) powered by Jet-A1. Jet A1 has a freezing point of -47 Deg C and doesn't wax up like road diesel so is a non-issue.
Gaseous,
That is a scary thought for this industry... one stroke of the pen to double fuel costs... You can picture the scenario... JetA1 for "export" (i.e. international airlines) will remain the same, but any fuel used purely for within the UK (i.e. 99% of our domestic helicopter industry) will be taxed at the same rate as Avgas.... arrrrgggg
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You can picture the scenario... JetA1 for "export" (i.e. international airlines) will remain the same, but any fuel used purely for within the UK (i.e. 99% of our domestic helicopter industry) will be taxed at the same rate as Avgas.... arrrrgggg
The background to my observation was a memo passed on to me about 2 years ago emanating from HM treasury addressing this issue and also the environmental 'implication' of tax free fuel.
Government's position is it does not like the idea of tax free fuel and wants to end it but ICAO rules are a big obstacle.
I'll see if I can find the note and post it up.
diesel power
Hi all, I am new to this forum and would like to thank you all for the really interesting and good quality content. Happy New Year to all of you and your family. Keep safe.
My question is about the DeltaHawk's 180/200HP 2 strokes diesel engines.
Does anyone know if they are nearing certification for vertical mounting and what is your opinion as one of them as a replacement of Lycoms on light pistons ships? (mainly in self built/kits units such as Safaris/Cabris etc...)... I cannot get fresh news on the net... but going diesel seems really interesting. Any other suppliers? Cheers. Al
My question is about the DeltaHawk's 180/200HP 2 strokes diesel engines.
Does anyone know if they are nearing certification for vertical mounting and what is your opinion as one of them as a replacement of Lycoms on light pistons ships? (mainly in self built/kits units such as Safaris/Cabris etc...)... I cannot get fresh news on the net... but going diesel seems really interesting. Any other suppliers? Cheers. Al
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Not sure about status of deltahawk without checking website:
DeltaHawk Diesel Engines
Another very competant design to watch is the Wilsch AirMotive (also a 2 stroke design):
wilksch.net
One development that really caught my eye a while back was Cubewano Diesel rotary:
Cubewano
These last guys are a clever spin-off from the Norton/UAV rotary with a clever combustor design to handle either diesel or kerosine. Designs large enough for private helicopters are on hold pending DOD funding, which is a great pity IMHO.
Or you could fit a Perkins and sacrifice a little payload...
Perkins
DeltaHawk Diesel Engines
Another very competant design to watch is the Wilsch AirMotive (also a 2 stroke design):
wilksch.net
One development that really caught my eye a while back was Cubewano Diesel rotary:
Cubewano
These last guys are a clever spin-off from the Norton/UAV rotary with a clever combustor design to handle either diesel or kerosine. Designs large enough for private helicopters are on hold pending DOD funding, which is a great pity IMHO.
Or you could fit a Perkins and sacrifice a little payload...
Perkins
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Must admit to holding out there to see if anyone else would bite...
Actually the guys to watch are:
Startseite
Because of this
http://www.austroengine.at/cms/uploa...nical_Data.pdf
and this
STEYR MOTORS and Austro Engine form development partnership for 280hp 6-cylinder aircraft engine | STEYR MOTORS NA
Very neat installation in Diamond DA-42 which was on display at Helitech.
Actually the guys to watch are:
Startseite
Because of this
http://www.austroengine.at/cms/uploa...nical_Data.pdf
and this
STEYR MOTORS and Austro Engine form development partnership for 280hp 6-cylinder aircraft engine | STEYR MOTORS NA
Very neat installation in Diamond DA-42 which was on display at Helitech.
firstly i apologise for not reading the whole thread but on the recent safety course i sat next to frank robinson (i was gobsmacked when he turned up for lunch, but on the course thats what he does) and he said one major regret was not completing a diesel r44. but in his own words he just could not get the darn weight down!!! mr robinson is crazy about low weight machines and simplicity.
its close to his heart lets hope so one day.
its close to his heart lets hope so one day.
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Yes, he also mentioned this at his talk at the R.A.S. (London). Diesel helicopters will come, particularly with the rate of development at Austra Engine.
Helicopters in the short term have to be designed around the current fleet of heavy Avtur JP8 burning diesel engines. You either push up rotor radius and solidity ratio, and drop rrpm to keep cruise speed. Or sacrifice a little of the efficiency gain by generating more downwash to lift that heavy engine. A challenge yes, but not unsurmountable. Cars went from about 5% to 50% diesel sales in roughly a decade, so I would say that diesel helicopters will be mainstream in a simar timeframe.
Helicopters in the short term have to be designed around the current fleet of heavy Avtur JP8 burning diesel engines. You either push up rotor radius and solidity ratio, and drop rrpm to keep cruise speed. Or sacrifice a little of the efficiency gain by generating more downwash to lift that heavy engine. A challenge yes, but not unsurmountable. Cars went from about 5% to 50% diesel sales in roughly a decade, so I would say that diesel helicopters will be mainstream in a simar timeframe.
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Exciting new development.
TEOS 440shp diesel V12 (using Steyr M16 componentry):
http://www.teos-engineering.com/mbFi...0213-54218.pdf
GRC4: Integration of a Diesel Engine on a Light Helicopter | Clean Sky
TEOS POWERTRAIN ENGINEERING - Diesel aircraft engine
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one...
http://www.teos-engineering.com/mbFi...0213-54218.pdf
GRC4: Integration of a Diesel Engine on a Light Helicopter | Clean Sky
TEOS POWERTRAIN ENGINEERING - Diesel aircraft engine
I'll be keeping a close eye on this one...
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firstly i apologise for not reading the whole thread but on the recent safety course i sat next to frank robinson (i was gobsmacked when he turned up for lunch, but on the course thats what he does) and he said one major regret was not completing a diesel r44. but in his own words he just could not get the darn weight down!!! mr robinson is crazy about low weight machines and simplicity.
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The taxation risk is such a big issue with diesel applications in light aviation that any major corporation contemplating major development will be very cautious about jumping in and spending real money, it seems to me.
It is more likely that there is an incentive if Avgas disappears, which it probably will, given time.
You would not want to bank your pension on an aviation diesel industry, I suggest.
It is more likely that there is an incentive if Avgas disappears, which it probably will, given time.
You would not want to bank your pension on an aviation diesel industry, I suggest.
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Helinut, the engines should more accurately be referred to as compression ignition (C.I.) engines. They are burning jet A1 for which there is a ready untaxed supply. The main modification over a diesel burning CI engine is a fuel pump modified to use the sump oil and special injectors to cope with the reduced lubricity of kerosine.
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Any news on Airbus helicopter diesel?
Must admit that I was suprised at the timescale of developing the Jet A1 burning V12 diesel (TEOS/Austro/Steyr) and then installing it in an EC120. This time last year the thinking was that first flight would be later this year.
Diesel On Track To Replace Turboshafts On Light Helicopters | Aviation International News
Any news?
Diesel On Track To Replace Turboshafts On Light Helicopters | Aviation International News
Any news?
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Graviman,
AIN provided another update in this year's Heli-Expo show dailies: Europe’s diesel demonstrator to fly this year
The diesel-powered EC120 was originally touted for a flight in 2011.
There's a dedicated thread on the project here.
I/C
AIN provided another update in this year's Heli-Expo show dailies: Europe’s diesel demonstrator to fly this year
The modified EC120 iron bird (which includes an airframe) is located at the Airbus Helicopters factory in Marignane, France. Testing began last November, after extensive engine trials took place on a dedicated test bench earlier last year. No particular difficulty has been encountered since the beginning of the test phase, project officer Sébastien Dubois told AIN. Iron bird testing will continue this quarter.
The engine will then be installed on the flight-test aircraft. Modifications for the installation began late last year. Ground trials are planned to begin in the third quarter and the first flight is expected to take place later in 2014. The first flight was previously scheduled for April 2014.
The engine will then be installed on the flight-test aircraft. Modifications for the installation began late last year. Ground trials are planned to begin in the third quarter and the first flight is expected to take place later in 2014. The first flight was previously scheduled for April 2014.
There's a dedicated thread on the project here.
I/C
