Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job
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Why would you want a IFR - ME rating when you only have a bare licence...???
Also....
This constant bitching from the pom sector about income is really annoying. If your motivation is to earn big bucks and live your life in pursuit of the perfect pension plan while working for the perfect company - you are in the wrong career. Believe me, if you ever find the perfect package,perfect conditions and perfect employer, it will no longer be perfect, because a w@#ker like you will be involved in it.
Flying and aviation are lifestyle jobs. If you don't enjoy it enough for all the current benefits and conditions, then get out of the game and leave it to those who enjoy getting up for work everyday.
Also....
This constant bitching from the pom sector about income is really annoying. If your motivation is to earn big bucks and live your life in pursuit of the perfect pension plan while working for the perfect company - you are in the wrong career. Believe me, if you ever find the perfect package,perfect conditions and perfect employer, it will no longer be perfect, because a w@#ker like you will be involved in it.
Flying and aviation are lifestyle jobs. If you don't enjoy it enough for all the current benefits and conditions, then get out of the game and leave it to those who enjoy getting up for work everyday.
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Extreme Danger
I'm much like the previous. I did my PPL(A)and immediately switched to helicopter training after passing my fixed wing flight test. I flew for a week, every day and then 2 hours every week after that until I passed. Alogether it came to 38 hours including the flight test.
Do I enjoy it ? Well I have flown 2 hours in a fixed wing since starting to fly helicopters two years ago. My PPL(A) is now lapsed and I'm not looking back. Not only is it great fun, you get the benefit of taking the mick out of the fixed wing only guys when there runway is waterlogged !
The best advice I can offer is to get yourself on the R22 safety course as soon as you can after you've passed. It'll scare you, make you sweat, but you'll learn things on that course you should have been taught while you were training. Can't recommend it enough.
I'm much like the previous. I did my PPL(A)and immediately switched to helicopter training after passing my fixed wing flight test. I flew for a week, every day and then 2 hours every week after that until I passed. Alogether it came to 38 hours including the flight test.
Do I enjoy it ? Well I have flown 2 hours in a fixed wing since starting to fly helicopters two years ago. My PPL(A) is now lapsed and I'm not looking back. Not only is it great fun, you get the benefit of taking the mick out of the fixed wing only guys when there runway is waterlogged !
The best advice I can offer is to get yourself on the R22 safety course as soon as you can after you've passed. It'll scare you, make you sweat, but you'll learn things on that course you should have been taught while you were training. Can't recommend it enough.
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I have to agree with HB. I don't fly helicopters because I am going to get rich doing it. However someone once told me to find a job at something I loved and I would never work another day in my life. I happen to love flying helicopters and that is why I do it and will continue to do it. And if you are persistent and work toward some of the more niche sectors you can even make decent money.
Just my $.02
Just my $.02
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Extreme D...I have recently completed my PPL (H)on the R44 and with the benefit of the CAAs exemption for my ATPL(A) was able to complete the course in the minimum 39 Hours... I was fortunate to solo after 8 and once this stage was over, it all seemed to go quite well.... I then received the license through the post and took out some friends for a jolly, its at this stage when you realise you know absolutely Jack Sh*t about helicopters!! with a mighty 39 hours total time...Blades advise regarding the Robinson safety course is a good one, and one I will take up as soon as I can get over to the States...I have several thousands of hours in various Airliners, but nothing beats the feeling of freedom in the Helicopter....Great Fun!
ps, I would recomend Heliair for your training if you are in the Uk...excellent set up.
ps, I would recomend Heliair for your training if you are in the Uk...excellent set up.
ATPL is a necessary requirement for most Command positions on multi-engine helo's.
If you are not interested in Multi work then it is probably not beneficial to get it. However, as a professional aviator it is good to learn as much about your occupation as possible and the ATPL further extends your knowledge.
With some management and upper level company positions an ATPL will add weight to your application and lately in OZ it is often one of the minimum requirements for general job applications.
Merry Chrissy
If you are not interested in Multi work then it is probably not beneficial to get it. However, as a professional aviator it is good to learn as much about your occupation as possible and the ATPL further extends your knowledge.
With some management and upper level company positions an ATPL will add weight to your application and lately in OZ it is often one of the minimum requirements for general job applications.
Merry Chrissy
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I believe the answer to your question depends which country you are talking about. In the UK, where JAR FCL is changing things, an ATPL(H) under the "old" system was simply a question of holding a CPL(H) and then acquiring the necessary number of flying hours. Once you got 1200 total hours (and some other min hrs for PIC,cross country etc)you could trade in your CPL(H) for an ATPL(H)- subject to paying a bit towards the rent for the Belgrano of course. At that stage, you did not need to have an IR. The only additional privilege of the old ATPL(H) was that it allowed you to be PIC of a multi crew helicopter. This was pretty much irrelevant, unless you flew offshore, since almost all onshore helicopters are certified single crew in the UK. There are a lot of old style ATPL(H)s out there held by pilots with no IR and little or no multi crew time.
To get a JAR FCL ATPL(H) you must have done the ATPL level technical knowledge exams, hold a helicopter IR and multi crew experience. It is very similar to the FW ATPL requirement.
To get a JAR FCL ATPL(H) you must have done the ATPL level technical knowledge exams, hold a helicopter IR and multi crew experience. It is very similar to the FW ATPL requirement.
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Becoming A Helicoter Pilot
Hello,. .I have a question,
Im 15 and have a year and half of school left.. .Im interested in becoming a commercial helicopter pilot and have started flying planes as I was told it would be better experience before moving onto helicopters.. .I want to know what kind of grades are needed and if 3rd level education is required or recommended.
And one last one Whats the pay like?
Hope you can help. .Alan
Im 15 and have a year and half of school left.. .Im interested in becoming a commercial helicopter pilot and have started flying planes as I was told it would be better experience before moving onto helicopters.. .I want to know what kind of grades are needed and if 3rd level education is required or recommended.
And one last one Whats the pay like?
Hope you can help. .Alan
Alan
Join the military and be payed to learn. Otherwise you get in a catch 22. Not enough hours to get the experience to become empolyed, so how does one get the experience, espically turbine hours ? Unless you are very wealthy or very lucky the cheapest way is to join up.
Good luck ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
Join the military and be payed to learn. Otherwise you get in a catch 22. Not enough hours to get the experience to become empolyed, so how does one get the experience, espically turbine hours ? Unless you are very wealthy or very lucky the cheapest way is to join up.
Good luck ! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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I believe in the UK you need a certain amount of GCSEs (General Certificate of Secondrate Education <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> ) before you can take the exams. The CAA can tell you the grades required.
These days, the job needs more specialisation, mainly because insurance companies and customers tend to specify pilot requirements, so you have to decide early on in which direction you want to go, as it is fairly difficult to move from one to the other - not impossible, but you will have another pile of certificates and hours to get before you become employable in the other field. This relates to the choice between IFR and VFR, and the fun things like longlining.
If it helps, here is an extract from a book what I wrote:
Getting started is the most difficult bit – the cost of helicopter time is so great that it’s almost impossible to do without help, maybe from parents, or being trained in the Forces. Having said that, there are plenty of people who have done it, so it isn’t impossible, but these will tend be found in Canada or the USA, where it’s considerably cheaper. In Europe, where it’s over twice as expensive and you need more hours to get your licence, anyone who can afford their own training would, in terms of pure financial reward, have to think twice before working as a pilot, because that sort of money can be considerably more productive elsewhere. At least you can then fly when you want to.
Mind you, it’s ultimately not that different in North America. Even though you only need 100 (Canada) or 150 (USA) hours to get your ticket, you are still usually unemployable, unless your family owns the company (and even then the insurance companies or customers would have something to say), so you either have to do a couple of years as a hangar rat, that is, washing windscreens until your company sees what you’re like and trains you up, or buy the hours yourself. To be even remotely interesting to an employer (or, more correctly, a customer), you need at least 500 hours, sometimes 1000 or 1500, or some sort of specialised training, such as a mountain course (preferably both) and maybe an instrument rating, depending on the job.. .Typically, in a large company, there will be an internal course for ground staff with commercial licences, and who have been observed for a couple of seasons for suitability. It will be run by senior pilots who are also instructors, and is a good thing to get on, as it will markedly improve your prospects over other pilots with the same hours as you, assuming that other companies recognise the standards. In fact, your training background is so important that you should pick your school carefully if you can’t get on such a course. Make sure whoever teaches you has actually been out and done the job themselves, and have maybe run their own companies. Unfortunately, it is possible for people to become instructors at 200 hours and stay there. Granted, if this wasn’t possible, the industry wouldn’t have nearly as many pilots as it needs, but there are many who would prefer that instructors have a minimum of 1500 hours before they start, because trouble is best avoided by not getting into it in the first place, and you only know how to do that with experience. You can’t teach what you don’t know.
Many schools indicate they might hire you once you complete your training, but don’t include that as a factor in your choice, as it’s generally only those that are part of a larger commercial organisation that can afford to do it, and the competition is keen. The employment situation can change from day to day, and it can be impossible to keep up with. Just regard it as a bonus.
When you budget for your training, don’t just count in the cost of your course, but the time afterwards going around companies to get hired; just sending resumes is no good at all (this could take up to four years). Note also that you may well need more hours than you think– certainly, as far as the PPL is concerned, the average time taken to pass is 67.7 hours, against a minimum requirement of about 40.
The machine you train on often counts, too – it took a long time for the Robinson R22 to get accepted over a Bell 47, and then only because the spares ran out (the fact that the Robbie only needs a can of oil occasionally probably helped). However, both are underpowered and are good for teaching you power management, if nothing else.
So, now that I’ve painted a really pessimistic picture of your prospects (by request, actually, from people who have been there before you), let’s have a look at what you need to get your licence, then what you might get up to after that, so you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
First of all, though, here’s a quick checklist of all the stages you might go through, with suggestions for getting the best bang for your buck—at this stage, the pile of money in your pocket will buy one of two things; a commercial licence, with minimum hours, or a share in a helicopter in which you can fly all you want, including training, assuming you have the money for fuel.
Before you do anything, get a Class 1 medical, because all the training in the world will useless if you fail it.
Do a trial lesson in a helicopter, to see if you have the aptitude.
Enrol on a fixed wing commercial course. It may sound daft, but there are sound reasons for it, which the military have known about for years. One is that the written examinations are almost the same, except for principles of flight, and you will learn about 80% of your future trade at a much reduced cost (navigation, use of radios, etc), assuming the requirement for hours is about the same. There are some who will argue that your money is best spent on helicopter time at this stage, but you won't be remaining a low-time pilot, hopefully, to whom that advice is best applied. It's also another string to your bow, and you can do it on a single. If you intend an IFR career, then do the Instrument Rating as well. In building up your hours, you could always include potential employers on the trips and do some job hunting first!
Convert the fixed wing commercial to a helicopter one, with an add-on qualification. You now have more total hours for the same money, and maybe some change for a turbine rating.
Otherwise, there are distinct stages in the average pilot's career. First, you fly single-engined piston machines, then turbine ones, then multis, then you might go IFR (in fixed wing, you go multi, IFR, then turbine). Along the way, you pick up specialist stuff like longlining, and by the time you retire you finally have enough qualifications to get a job
I hope I haven't been overly cycnical, and I would never try to stop anyone doing what they really want to do - I just wish more people would go into it with their eyes open. The advice given by Hughes500 is sound - you could join the miltary, but don't expect to do a lot of hours, as they tend to expect you to be better at driving a desk and killing people than actually flying. Having said that, that's the way i did it and I had a good time, managing to avoid a war (occupational hazard). You will learn a lot about flying, but the civvie world is completely different, and many operators in Western Canada don't like military pilots anyway, so it cuts no ice.
regards
Phil
PS I like your signoff line
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>
These days, the job needs more specialisation, mainly because insurance companies and customers tend to specify pilot requirements, so you have to decide early on in which direction you want to go, as it is fairly difficult to move from one to the other - not impossible, but you will have another pile of certificates and hours to get before you become employable in the other field. This relates to the choice between IFR and VFR, and the fun things like longlining.
If it helps, here is an extract from a book what I wrote:
Getting started is the most difficult bit – the cost of helicopter time is so great that it’s almost impossible to do without help, maybe from parents, or being trained in the Forces. Having said that, there are plenty of people who have done it, so it isn’t impossible, but these will tend be found in Canada or the USA, where it’s considerably cheaper. In Europe, where it’s over twice as expensive and you need more hours to get your licence, anyone who can afford their own training would, in terms of pure financial reward, have to think twice before working as a pilot, because that sort of money can be considerably more productive elsewhere. At least you can then fly when you want to.
Mind you, it’s ultimately not that different in North America. Even though you only need 100 (Canada) or 150 (USA) hours to get your ticket, you are still usually unemployable, unless your family owns the company (and even then the insurance companies or customers would have something to say), so you either have to do a couple of years as a hangar rat, that is, washing windscreens until your company sees what you’re like and trains you up, or buy the hours yourself. To be even remotely interesting to an employer (or, more correctly, a customer), you need at least 500 hours, sometimes 1000 or 1500, or some sort of specialised training, such as a mountain course (preferably both) and maybe an instrument rating, depending on the job.. .Typically, in a large company, there will be an internal course for ground staff with commercial licences, and who have been observed for a couple of seasons for suitability. It will be run by senior pilots who are also instructors, and is a good thing to get on, as it will markedly improve your prospects over other pilots with the same hours as you, assuming that other companies recognise the standards. In fact, your training background is so important that you should pick your school carefully if you can’t get on such a course. Make sure whoever teaches you has actually been out and done the job themselves, and have maybe run their own companies. Unfortunately, it is possible for people to become instructors at 200 hours and stay there. Granted, if this wasn’t possible, the industry wouldn’t have nearly as many pilots as it needs, but there are many who would prefer that instructors have a minimum of 1500 hours before they start, because trouble is best avoided by not getting into it in the first place, and you only know how to do that with experience. You can’t teach what you don’t know.
Many schools indicate they might hire you once you complete your training, but don’t include that as a factor in your choice, as it’s generally only those that are part of a larger commercial organisation that can afford to do it, and the competition is keen. The employment situation can change from day to day, and it can be impossible to keep up with. Just regard it as a bonus.
When you budget for your training, don’t just count in the cost of your course, but the time afterwards going around companies to get hired; just sending resumes is no good at all (this could take up to four years). Note also that you may well need more hours than you think– certainly, as far as the PPL is concerned, the average time taken to pass is 67.7 hours, against a minimum requirement of about 40.
The machine you train on often counts, too – it took a long time for the Robinson R22 to get accepted over a Bell 47, and then only because the spares ran out (the fact that the Robbie only needs a can of oil occasionally probably helped). However, both are underpowered and are good for teaching you power management, if nothing else.
So, now that I’ve painted a really pessimistic picture of your prospects (by request, actually, from people who have been there before you), let’s have a look at what you need to get your licence, then what you might get up to after that, so you know what you’re letting yourself in for.
First of all, though, here’s a quick checklist of all the stages you might go through, with suggestions for getting the best bang for your buck—at this stage, the pile of money in your pocket will buy one of two things; a commercial licence, with minimum hours, or a share in a helicopter in which you can fly all you want, including training, assuming you have the money for fuel.
Before you do anything, get a Class 1 medical, because all the training in the world will useless if you fail it.
Do a trial lesson in a helicopter, to see if you have the aptitude.
Enrol on a fixed wing commercial course. It may sound daft, but there are sound reasons for it, which the military have known about for years. One is that the written examinations are almost the same, except for principles of flight, and you will learn about 80% of your future trade at a much reduced cost (navigation, use of radios, etc), assuming the requirement for hours is about the same. There are some who will argue that your money is best spent on helicopter time at this stage, but you won't be remaining a low-time pilot, hopefully, to whom that advice is best applied. It's also another string to your bow, and you can do it on a single. If you intend an IFR career, then do the Instrument Rating as well. In building up your hours, you could always include potential employers on the trips and do some job hunting first!
Convert the fixed wing commercial to a helicopter one, with an add-on qualification. You now have more total hours for the same money, and maybe some change for a turbine rating.
Otherwise, there are distinct stages in the average pilot's career. First, you fly single-engined piston machines, then turbine ones, then multis, then you might go IFR (in fixed wing, you go multi, IFR, then turbine). Along the way, you pick up specialist stuff like longlining, and by the time you retire you finally have enough qualifications to get a job
I hope I haven't been overly cycnical, and I would never try to stop anyone doing what they really want to do - I just wish more people would go into it with their eyes open. The advice given by Hughes500 is sound - you could join the miltary, but don't expect to do a lot of hours, as they tend to expect you to be better at driving a desk and killing people than actually flying. Having said that, that's the way i did it and I had a good time, managing to avoid a war (occupational hazard). You will learn a lot about flying, but the civvie world is completely different, and many operators in Western Canada don't like military pilots anyway, so it cuts no ice.
regards
Phil
PS I like your signoff line
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>
Gatvol
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You want to fly, come to the US, get your license.. .You want to work, come to the US and use your license. You just have to figure out all the other incidentals on your own.. .It seems all the folks from the UK and the above Canadian seem to think you must be a rocket scientist to fly a helicopter. Not true and you also dont need to have a Masters degree from college. You want to fly, do it.. .There are cheaper ways to do things, as mentioned above get a fixed wing license and then a helicopter "add-on" rating..... Same license just financially easier. AND...yes thats a big AND you will find that Airline Pilots make one hell of a lot more money than Helicopter Pilots. You may find Fixed Wing more to your liking. They also get first shot at the better looking members of the crew (you have plenty of time for that). .Good Luck, set your goals and go for it.
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I never said he needed to be a rocket scientist.... <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> but the skills test would involve something to do with sex and booze! (aoplogies to a thread on canadianaviation.com)
phil
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>
phil
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: paco ]</p>
Alan,
In all seriousness, presumably you want to stay this side of the pond (Ireland/UK)?. .If you go to the US it is fraught with immigration red tape and at the end of it there is a lot of flying for not much money.
My advice without question would be to join the military. Get your hours and experience. This gives you a fighting chance on two fronts:. .(a) It gets you loads of hours for free which helps with obtaining your commercial licence.. .(b) The training pipeline is a known and well tested background which everyone can relate to. I'm not saying the civvy route is any less professional but it doesn't necessarily come with a guarantee of quality <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .As soon as you get your quals, quit if you want to and fly commercially with the minimum of costs.. .Do it privately however,and it will cost you £30-£50,000. OR, it will take forever to clock up your hours renting yourself out (sometimes for free) to attain the relevant minimum hours.
Once qualified you can choose which sector to fly in: Off shore / freelance / government service / etc. This choice is made easier with a mil background.
Salaries: Commercial Captain with a CPL(H) ranges from: £20,000 - £40,000 starting pay. Believe me - no-one flies for the money . .[except perhaps the rigs. . <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ].
If you want the bucks - airlines. .If you want the thrills - helo. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Thomas coupling ]</p>
In all seriousness, presumably you want to stay this side of the pond (Ireland/UK)?. .If you go to the US it is fraught with immigration red tape and at the end of it there is a lot of flying for not much money.
My advice without question would be to join the military. Get your hours and experience. This gives you a fighting chance on two fronts:. .(a) It gets you loads of hours for free which helps with obtaining your commercial licence.. .(b) The training pipeline is a known and well tested background which everyone can relate to. I'm not saying the civvy route is any less professional but it doesn't necessarily come with a guarantee of quality <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> . .As soon as you get your quals, quit if you want to and fly commercially with the minimum of costs.. .Do it privately however,and it will cost you £30-£50,000. OR, it will take forever to clock up your hours renting yourself out (sometimes for free) to attain the relevant minimum hours.
Once qualified you can choose which sector to fly in: Off shore / freelance / government service / etc. This choice is made easier with a mil background.
Salaries: Commercial Captain with a CPL(H) ranges from: £20,000 - £40,000 starting pay. Believe me - no-one flies for the money
. .[except perhaps the rigs. . <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> ].If you want the bucks - airlines. .If you want the thrills - helo. <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">
[ 05 February 2002: Message edited by: Thomas coupling ]</p>
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Hi there, as a military pilot i would agree with a lot that has been said, that military is easier to get the hours and get paid for it. However be carefull who you join. RAF an Navy would be a good bet but do not get sucked into the Army system. It takes years to get into a place where you can apply to fly, if you are a NCO pilot. If you join as an officer then you will fly for 4 years then sit behind a desk for 6-8 years before seeing another aircraft. Do not be put of by this as the flying is the best you will do, however choose carefully.
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helicopter pilot?
I would appreciate any help!!
i have recently had my 1st helicopter lesson, really enjoyed it & now would like to make a childhood dream come true by doing it professionally!!
if anyone could give me any pointers on the best (and cheapest) way to go about it, i would be most grateful!!
cheers!!
ps is there such a thing as a helicopter pilot scholarship, here or abroad?
i have recently had my 1st helicopter lesson, really enjoyed it & now would like to make a childhood dream come true by doing it professionally!!
if anyone could give me any pointers on the best (and cheapest) way to go about it, i would be most grateful!!
cheers!!
ps is there such a thing as a helicopter pilot scholarship, here or abroad?
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You could do worse than to have another couple of lessons to check that it is something that you definitely want to pursue (even if you are sure now!) it is a lot of money to fork out on the basis of an hour or less in a helicopter.
If you think it is what you want to do, then you must get a class 1 medical (about £400 I think) to see if you are medically fit so that you don't potentially waste time and money later, then perhaps some aptitude testing would be a good idea (have a look at The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators website) to check you have the ability to see it through.
Assuming all is well, then decide if you want to go for modular training or integrated training - an on going debate, but you must decide what suits you - speak to as many training schools as you can. I'm sure other people with more experience will be able to offer some pointers.
Where did you take your flying lesson? I see you live in Hatfield (I live in St. Albans). Elstree is not too far (where I'm flying from at the mo), and I know Cabair operate some helicopters from there - might be worth checking out.
As for sponsorship, I don't know of any, and I don't think you'll have any luck in the present climate - someone else might know of something though.
All the Best,
TCM
If you think it is what you want to do, then you must get a class 1 medical (about £400 I think) to see if you are medically fit so that you don't potentially waste time and money later, then perhaps some aptitude testing would be a good idea (have a look at The Guild of Air Pilots and Navigators website) to check you have the ability to see it through.
Assuming all is well, then decide if you want to go for modular training or integrated training - an on going debate, but you must decide what suits you - speak to as many training schools as you can. I'm sure other people with more experience will be able to offer some pointers.
Where did you take your flying lesson? I see you live in Hatfield (I live in St. Albans). Elstree is not too far (where I'm flying from at the mo), and I know Cabair operate some helicopters from there - might be worth checking out.
As for sponsorship, I don't know of any, and I don't think you'll have any luck in the present climate - someone else might know of something though.
All the Best,
TCM