Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Ireland
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Thank you all for the replies.
Why is it that professional helicopter pilots claim exclusivity on poor working conditions? Listening to you all moan about bad pay and your working enviroment make me occasionally want to shake you by your epilettes. Perhaps you are pissed that your mates who did law or accountancy or business in uni are all on fantastic wages by the time they are 27. But in the real working world where most of us live, life is no picnic either.
If I had a euro for each time I was advised to give up this idea I could enroll for my ATPL Cabair tomorrow, and still have enough left for a modest faberge egg collection.
Yes this will not be an easy road, and I plan to have the cash up front, then take out an enormous loan by my standards of about 15K. As for the figures of 50 grand or so, if you are stupid enough to get into that much debt and if a financial institution is also insane enough to lend it to you then you deserve whatever comes your way.
Thanks for all the positve replies
Clevenger
Why is it that professional helicopter pilots claim exclusivity on poor working conditions? Listening to you all moan about bad pay and your working enviroment make me occasionally want to shake you by your epilettes. Perhaps you are pissed that your mates who did law or accountancy or business in uni are all on fantastic wages by the time they are 27. But in the real working world where most of us live, life is no picnic either.
If I had a euro for each time I was advised to give up this idea I could enroll for my ATPL Cabair tomorrow, and still have enough left for a modest faberge egg collection.
Yes this will not be an easy road, and I plan to have the cash up front, then take out an enormous loan by my standards of about 15K. As for the figures of 50 grand or so, if you are stupid enough to get into that much debt and if a financial institution is also insane enough to lend it to you then you deserve whatever comes your way.
Thanks for all the positve replies
Clevenger
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If I had a euro for each time I was advised to give up this idea I could enroll for my ATPL Cabair tomorrow, and still have enough left for a modest faberge egg collection.
Good luck with it
Guest
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Clevenger:
My position wasn't too dissimilar - finished my law degree at English uni and at 22 decided flying was for me. Now I'm one year down the line. PM me if I can help you with anything or you want advice about something specific
Good luck!
Charlie
My position wasn't too dissimilar - finished my law degree at English uni and at 22 decided flying was for me. Now I'm one year down the line. PM me if I can help you with anything or you want advice about something specific
Good luck!
Charlie
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Why are there so many Paddy Pilots out there anyway?
They are everywhere.
Last I heard there were barely any Commercial Helis in Ireland, you are going to have an extremely tough time trying to get a job back in Ireland with the massive amount of competion for work.
Have you really thought about this or are you just hearing what you want to hear?
They are everywhere.
Last I heard there were barely any Commercial Helis in Ireland, you are going to have an extremely tough time trying to get a job back in Ireland with the massive amount of competion for work.
Have you really thought about this or are you just hearing what you want to hear?
Join Date: Mar 2003
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<-- paddy pilot
For me anyway, as much as I'd like to move back to Ireland, I can't see myself doing it.
It's just too expensive to live there these days - even if you're being paid a decent wage.
Just because you're Irish doesn't mean you have to fly only in Ireland =)
For me anyway, as much as I'd like to move back to Ireland, I can't see myself doing it.
It's just too expensive to live there these days - even if you're being paid a decent wage.
Just because you're Irish doesn't mean you have to fly only in Ireland =)
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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clevenger,
You say:
You then complain because people tell it as they see it. Why ask for advice if you don't actually want it? You don't have to agree, or even follow the advice, but to complain that people are being negative when they're giving you the benefit of their experience which you asked for , is hardly fair, now is it?
Good luck with your training.
You say:
any more words of wisdom would be welcome.
Good luck with your training.
"Does anyone not think it strange that on an intro flight an instructor gets a prospective student to try and hover and demo's auto's?????"
I'm not aware of any schools that don't demonstrate autos during a TIF.
I'm not aware of any schools that don't demonstrate autos during a TIF.
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
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Bellthorpe,
AFAIK it's up to the instructor, here at any rate. I've never yet demonstrated an auto on a trial lesson, though I would if someone asked about it. Some instructors do, some don't. You have to let students try to hover, because for most people, that's what helicopter flying is about! If they just wanted to fly, they'd go fixed wing.
AFAIK it's up to the instructor, here at any rate. I've never yet demonstrated an auto on a trial lesson, though I would if someone asked about it. Some instructors do, some don't. You have to let students try to hover, because for most people, that's what helicopter flying is about! If they just wanted to fly, they'd go fixed wing.
I remember my introflight in an R22 in 1996, what an awsome day for sure!!
I even asked to perform an auto, but more to see what it was like from the front seat, since I had been in the back of a Sea King during a few of them (Scary!)
OVer to the hovering issue, I actually had a student prospect fly with all controls in the hover within the first 30 minutes of flying, actually managing to control the machine! Now the feller was a surgeon, and I guess that helped, but needless to say, I was impressed. However, I would say that he was the exception, rather than the rule. I had a student that needed over 30 hours before he was even remotely able to keep the helicopter in a steady hover, and again, he had limited technical knowledge before he started so he too was the exception rather than the rule. We're all different, so it becomes more of an individual task rather than something that can be generalized.
Here we also train a lot of conversions from "stuck wing" and I find them to be easier to train in some aspects, but they also have lots of "bad" habits for the helicopter world, such as using the "rudders" to assist in turns. Well well, do your best, enjoy your flying and have a good time, don't worry about the small stuff, it will all come eventually!
I even asked to perform an auto, but more to see what it was like from the front seat, since I had been in the back of a Sea King during a few of them (Scary!)
OVer to the hovering issue, I actually had a student prospect fly with all controls in the hover within the first 30 minutes of flying, actually managing to control the machine! Now the feller was a surgeon, and I guess that helped, but needless to say, I was impressed. However, I would say that he was the exception, rather than the rule. I had a student that needed over 30 hours before he was even remotely able to keep the helicopter in a steady hover, and again, he had limited technical knowledge before he started so he too was the exception rather than the rule. We're all different, so it becomes more of an individual task rather than something that can be generalized.
Here we also train a lot of conversions from "stuck wing" and I find them to be easier to train in some aspects, but they also have lots of "bad" habits for the helicopter world, such as using the "rudders" to assist in turns. Well well, do your best, enjoy your flying and have a good time, don't worry about the small stuff, it will all come eventually!
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Passing the skill test
Can anyone please give me an idea if it's likely that "the average 155 h private pilot" will be ready for the JAA CPL-H skill test after the 30 h CPL course?
I've done some training after my PPL but my autos are still straight-in. Is it realistic to learn 180's, touch-down autos in R22 and London area familiarization and get ready for the skill test, all within 30 hours?
All inputs are greatly appreciated.
I've done some training after my PPL but my autos are still straight-in. Is it realistic to learn 180's, touch-down autos in R22 and London area familiarization and get ready for the skill test, all within 30 hours?
All inputs are greatly appreciated.
Join Date: Sep 2002
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i sat my cpl at about 160 hours TT and passed. in new zealand we sit our ppl flight test at 50 hrs minimum.
a flight instructor who has delt with flight examiners in the passed should be able to tell you if you are ready. hours are a rough gauge to use as every one is different.
not that i am a big timer but that is what i have found. dont push it and do it when you feel ready(confident)
helipilotnz
a flight instructor who has delt with flight examiners in the passed should be able to tell you if you are ready. hours are a rough gauge to use as every one is different.
not that i am a big timer but that is what i have found. dont push it and do it when you feel ready(confident)
helipilotnz
Martin:
I had a PPL(A) which knocked off 20 hours from the required 185. I got to 135 hours in R22s before I did the modular course, and the 30 hours is plenty, if you a) have a decent instructor and b) have the spare brain capacity to absorb.
It is hard work, but make sure you get good pre-briefs, ask plenty of questions if you're not sure, and get good debriefs.
I had a PPL(A) which knocked off 20 hours from the required 185. I got to 135 hours in R22s before I did the modular course, and the 30 hours is plenty, if you a) have a decent instructor and b) have the spare brain capacity to absorb.
It is hard work, but make sure you get good pre-briefs, ask plenty of questions if you're not sure, and get good debriefs.
The Original Whirly
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It took me a few hours more...but I've never yet done anything in aviation in the minimum number of hours. I now accept that I'm a slightly slow learner and budget accordingly. Most people I've talked to have done it in the 30 hours or pretty close.
Unfortunately those who take longer are sometimes reluctant to tell you...something to do with the "I'm a superpilot who knew how to fly before I even got into the aircraft" attitude that seems to prevail throughout aviation.
It probably won't take you longer, but if it does - hey, you learn more!
Unfortunately those who take longer are sometimes reluctant to tell you...something to do with the "I'm a superpilot who knew how to fly before I even got into the aircraft" attitude that seems to prevail throughout aviation.
It probably won't take you longer, but if it does - hey, you learn more!
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CPL vs ATPL
Wondering if someone can clarrify something for me:
What can you do with a ATPL that you can't do with a CPL??
I suppose the real question is, what is the point in the CPL?? What does it enable you to do? Is there any point in holding a CPL and not a ATPL?
Tigg
What can you do with a ATPL that you can't do with a CPL??
I suppose the real question is, what is the point in the CPL?? What does it enable you to do? Is there any point in holding a CPL and not a ATPL?
Tigg
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HT,
Well it all depends................
Assuming you mean UK licences:
In the case of licences issued in the UK before the advent of JAR FCL, there was not much difference. They inolved the same ground exams and flight test. Most people got a CPL initially, and then when they got the extra hours required of the various types specified (something like 1,500 PIC if I recall correctly) you gave the CAA £250 and hey presto you had an ATPL(H). The ATPL(H) allowed you to be the captain of a two crew helicopter (i.e. big), which more or less meant OFFSHORE. You can, in theory, have either one with or without an instrument rating.
If you are talking about JAR FCL licences then the difference is greater, and the consequences more profound. In theory, you need to do different ground exams for the CPL and ATPL - the latter being more extensive. In practice, the whole thing is made more difficult because the helicopter business is so small that no one has effectively bothered to set up a CPL ground syllabus/exam school for heles. So you have to do the ATPL ground stuff.
When it comes to the flying, the major difference is that to get an ATPL(H) you MUST have an IR and you must have substantial multi crew experience, before you can get given the ATPL(H)
Broadly speaking, if you want to fly offshore with an JAR FCL licence you will need an ATPL(H) (including the IR). It will be "frozen" until you get the necessary number of flying hours.
The only problem is that no one with any sense is prepared to pay the vast sum of money needed to get a frozen ATPL(H). I forecast that the rules will change at some point, but in the mean time there is a big problem - the whole edifice is not really viable, especially with a contracting UK offshore sector.
If you want to fly onshore, get a CPL(H). The vast majority of onshore ops are single crew. That then leaves you with the problem of acquiring lots of hours, so that an operator will trust you with his expensive helicopter and litigous passengers, and his insurer will cover the aircraft when under your command.
The answer to gaining hours probably still lies with instruction, but it is more expensive than it used to be.
Well it all depends................
Assuming you mean UK licences:
In the case of licences issued in the UK before the advent of JAR FCL, there was not much difference. They inolved the same ground exams and flight test. Most people got a CPL initially, and then when they got the extra hours required of the various types specified (something like 1,500 PIC if I recall correctly) you gave the CAA £250 and hey presto you had an ATPL(H). The ATPL(H) allowed you to be the captain of a two crew helicopter (i.e. big), which more or less meant OFFSHORE. You can, in theory, have either one with or without an instrument rating.
If you are talking about JAR FCL licences then the difference is greater, and the consequences more profound. In theory, you need to do different ground exams for the CPL and ATPL - the latter being more extensive. In practice, the whole thing is made more difficult because the helicopter business is so small that no one has effectively bothered to set up a CPL ground syllabus/exam school for heles. So you have to do the ATPL ground stuff.
When it comes to the flying, the major difference is that to get an ATPL(H) you MUST have an IR and you must have substantial multi crew experience, before you can get given the ATPL(H)
Broadly speaking, if you want to fly offshore with an JAR FCL licence you will need an ATPL(H) (including the IR). It will be "frozen" until you get the necessary number of flying hours.
The only problem is that no one with any sense is prepared to pay the vast sum of money needed to get a frozen ATPL(H). I forecast that the rules will change at some point, but in the mean time there is a big problem - the whole edifice is not really viable, especially with a contracting UK offshore sector.
If you want to fly onshore, get a CPL(H). The vast majority of onshore ops are single crew. That then leaves you with the problem of acquiring lots of hours, so that an operator will trust you with his expensive helicopter and litigous passengers, and his insurer will cover the aircraft when under your command.
The answer to gaining hours probably still lies with instruction, but it is more expensive than it used to be.
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Helinut has got it absolutely right.
In the UK, the ONLY need for a JAR ATPL is offsore work. A CPL will cover most things you may wish to do onshore, and the addition of an IR will also open up the corporate charter side to cover alomost everything.
Fact is, under JAR the requirements for an ATPL are simply hideous in terms of cost, and only those pursuing a long term career offshore would need it.
If offshore is not your bag, get a CPL and see what develops from there.
In the UK, the ONLY need for a JAR ATPL is offsore work. A CPL will cover most things you may wish to do onshore, and the addition of an IR will also open up the corporate charter side to cover alomost everything.
Fact is, under JAR the requirements for an ATPL are simply hideous in terms of cost, and only those pursuing a long term career offshore would need it.
If offshore is not your bag, get a CPL and see what develops from there.
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If you've got an JAR CPL/IR then accorrding to the man at the CAA it's the same as the ATPL to employers (if you've got the hours). If you want a ATPL you also need a 'civil multi-pilot type' on your licence, so the Seaking rating I opened my licence with doesn't count! And if you belive that employers don't see a difference between a JAR CPL/IR and a ATPL then have a look at the adverts in the back of flight international when they appear. Plus if you've got a UK ATPL without an IR or civil muti-pilot type rating watch out when your licence needs renewing you'll be in for a suprise 