Becoming a professional pilot, and finding a job

[Helo]

Trial flight and R44 costs

From what I've seen in the UK (and my own experience), trial flights include autos and trying to hover - I agree with Helibloke regarding the reasons.

Ready2Fly, re R44 costs, the average for two schools in the SE of England are as follows (inclusive of the VAT) - self fly hire, around £335-£340 per datcon hour i.e. collective up time, training around £400-£420 per hour rotors turning i.e. you need to add on 0.1 hour onto the datcon reading.

So ...... as usual, I think the UK has it in terms of excessive costs. It's the dreaded VAT that does (most of) it. Oh yeah, and don't forget to add on around £15 per landing and about the same for circuits in the UK.

Oh yeah, and budget for at least 50 hours learning to fly time, rather than the statutory minimum to be realistic - if you do in less then well done, if you do in more, then at least you were more realistic.

Helo

[Ready2Fly]

I liked it to be shown hover and autos, like Helibloke said: If you want to go straight and level do fixed wing. But i have to admit, when he told me he was going to demonstrate an auto i said: "You are joking..." and i instinctively wanted to pull the cyclic when coming down to 10 feet. Obviously i did not touch the controls at all, but someone in my ear said: Get your hand on that lever and puuuull ;)

Aladdinsane: Not that you got me wrong, he demonstrated an auto to me, not the other way round =:) I think you knew that anyway.

Chris: Thanks for your input on the school. Like i said, there are not so many around (in germany, not just around my town) and i agree with you: Even if it was a little more expensive i would always choose a school where i have a good 'relaxing' feeling. Money is important but why spend money when you can not enjoy what you are doing with it. I think you need to develop a certain sense to be ahead of the helicopter. I mean, to feel what might happen next before it happens. Maybe i am talking completely nonsense now as well. And i agree with you that it is good to have different instructors (they have 5 pilots, all of them instructing) during the course. Not every hour another one but to change from time to time. First the risk of learning bad habits is less (and as a student you might not know that you are learnig a bad habit, you have nothing to compare with what you are taught) and it gives you a good feedback when flying with someone else because everyone does it a bit different i guess. The two or three schools around here all teach on R22 (and R44) but not on H269C. I am fine with the R22 (i did not even know of any 'problems' with it before doing the TIF) eventhough it will take some time to be able to control it. As long as i do not try another type, i can not compare it and so, have to deal with it (like hundreds of other students before).

Helo: You gave me a good feeling about the costs. Goodness, who can afford these prices in the UK (evenmore, why are there still schools doing PPL(H) courses)? I know, it is the same with property etc. but GBP 400 - 420 for a R44, well, i guess i would leave it then. I am not planning with the minimum though. There is enough 'room' left for more than just 40 or 45 hours. Today i do not even believe that i'd pass a flight test with 100 hours (just thinking of the hover =:) which does not mean that i'd planned with 100 hours).

[helihaund]

From what I've learned on the long way of pursuit to become a helicopter pilot, here is my honest bit to the mill.
I recommend to a new guy looking for flight training, to go out on the ramp and see the fleet. How many helicopters are out there and what is the ratio to student and CFI. Is the maintenanance
done there ? Can you take your written and your checkride there ? What's the flying environment like ( climate)? What do other students have to say ? How many times a week can you fly? Schedule 4 times a week minimum, there is always a weather day or unscheduled maintenance somewhere. Fly as much as you can manage, it will save you time and money! To my experience, an average student takes about 10 hrs of dual to hover. By that time, straight and level and attitude flying start comming together. Next crunch is trimed takeoff and the biggest one, normal approach. That takes another 15-20 hrs. In the US the min dual requirement for a student pilot (R22) is 20 hrs
I have only had one (fixed wing pilot) who was able to solo with the min time, all others were between 25 -30 hrs. The rest of the flight training ( including emergencies and the rest of the sullabus) brings the national average to about 65 hours TT for PPL checkride. Now that can vary anywhere between 8 weeks and 8 months! As far as paying for flight training, I recommend paying in blocks, never all up front! Fly one helicopter model and dont' go back and forth between them. R22, R44 ,C300 are all very different animals and it will not be beneficial to you in the begining. Stay with one CFI and have another fly with you every 10 hrs or so and check your progress. He may have a better (different) way of comming through a problem or a plateau.
Stick with it! There's nothing like it.
Good luck

low and slow

[Hilico]

Did I see someone say 'fly five hours a day'? Utterly insane.

Having one hour in helicopters and having a little money to spare, I rang a school and said 'can I have three hours in your H300 and half an hour in a JR'. 'No'. I was stunned into silence. This was the MD I was talking to. Isn't he trying to sell flying? "After the second trip you would be asleep. We'll take you up for one session, and then you can see how you feel."

I did one session in the first morning, and another in the afternoon. It was fantastic! I could hover! Weather was ideal, but hey.

On the morning of the second day, I could barely get out of bed. All the time I was thinking, "I love flying a helicopter and I'm going to do it again today", but I missed the first train and fell asleep in my seat on the one that I did catch. By the end of the second day's flying I was getting ragged.

Before that I had talked to another school about their ten-hour 'hover square' course; "yes, pay the two thousand quid into your account and fly all week". B******s.

[Whirlybird]

Hilico,
As you and I well know, there are schools that are interested in money and schools that are interested in their students. Unfortunately it can sometimes be hard to distinguish between the two.

[Ready2Fly]

@helihaund
Thanks for sharing your opinion. When going through your list, i can mark all points positive for the school i want to go to. Ok, i only talked to one of their students but i got a positive picture from what he told me about his training. They have a R44 and a R22 for the school so far and are going to get a new R22 soon (the one they have has about 1300hrs now, well maintained). The maintenance is also done within the company. Because of the costs (doing your PPL(H) on R22 and R44 is cheaper than PPL(H) in R22 and type rating on R44 afterwards) i am still thinking about what road to follow. A combined course includes 30 hours R22 and 10 hrs R44 (done at a later stage). We get JAR-FCL on 01.05.2003 in germany and the only thing that changes for sure is higher costs. I am planning to start before to do the PPL(H) still under the 'old regulations' (minimum 45 hrs, 40 hrs if done within 5 months, 80 hours groundschool (1 hr = 45 mins, will go to 60 mins under JAR-FCL regulations). But i do plan more than 45 hrs anyway (time and budget). I will keep in mind what you said concerning mixing of types and thanks for your wishes. Like i said earlier: I was alwas interested in helicopters but got addicted with the first trial hour.

@Hilico
Agree with you. I would never pay such an amount upfront. If it was a policy with a flight school, i would just head for another school.

@Whirlybird
I read about your experience with your PPL(H). Too bad if you notice it that late but thanks for sharing. It might be easier for a lot of people to recognize what goes wrong in the beginning. I doubt that someone starting to learn has a good sense to notice what you mentioned because enthusiasm might keep you away from having second thoughts.

[CyclicRick]

I'm currently working in Germany and know quite a few people in the business and have a bit of time on my hands at the moment (laid off!) so if you'd like to email me do feel free...kannste auch in deutsch schreiben!

[the wizard of auz]

In oz we pay about AUD$380ph for a R22 and not much differant for the B47. Dunno about fixed wing pilots not being able to keep up with it though, I have a CPL(A) and about 4hrs in two types and reckon I will solo in the next two hrs. B47 is a nice craft to fly and way easier than the R22, but I think if you fly the R22 it will make a better pilot of you.

[empty pockets]

route to ATPL(H)?????

hey,

i am a wannabe pilot and, as i have yet to start any flight training, havent made up my mind whether i want to pursue a career flying fixed wing aircraft or helicopters.

my questions are:

1] what are the training routes to acheive the ATPL(H) [or at least a CPL(H)] and the typical training costs involved (would be interested in £sterling equivalent costs for training in australia etc.)

2] what are the typical heli jobs available to a low timer and the annual pay i could expect?

3] what is the state of the heli jobs market? is it expected to pick up soon?

4] if i decided to go the dual rated route, which sections (if any) can i skip from the fixed wing/rotary courses and what would the approx. total cost be?

any advice you can give will be gratefully received! i know heli flying is expensive but it looks far cooler than flying jetliners.

[B Sousa]

I cant speak for anything in the UK, and based on what I see of the Licensing procedures there, Im quite thankful for that.
However in the states, here are my thoughts.

1) Either have lots of money OR get your Fixed Wing ratings and then Add-On Helicopter. It seems to be the cheapest route to the Ratings... I said ratings not proficiency, total time and employment.

2) Typical jobs for low timers......NONE unless you marry the owners daughter. Bottom line Helicopter work seems to be around 1000 hours of turbine time. That usually requires about 1500 hours total or more. Others, Im sure, will post diferently depending on availability and geographic locations.

3) If you have a Commercial and around 2500 hours PIC it means you have a little variety of experience and can usually find work. But thats the bottom line, its work and starts at the bottom of the pay scale. As long as you move from job to job you are always going to be on the bottom unless you advance your ratings and get to more sophisticated aircraft... (here goes those big heads in SPIFR twins)

4) As mentioned above its cheaper. Contact a few flight schools and TALK to others, then you do the math.

[Aussierotor]

There are flying schools on the beautiful sunshine coast in Queenland.One is Chopperline.
Doing a full time course gets it done in less hours,and they do the dual course.
PPL in planes ,rest done on choppers----cost now (was 29 a few years ago) maybe just under $35---------under 15 pommy pounds.
Accomodation can be supplied at well under $100 a week ,plus a great place and great climate.
Just check "helicopter training--australia" or similar in www.google.com to find the places.
Only trouble with a dual course is that you dont end up with enough heli hours and seems to me most choppers have a minimum of 100 hours for insurance reasons.

Jobs ,well thats another question.---can be lucky,but getting harder.Once you went mustering but now the stockman who had experience on bikes and horses have moved up into that.

Choose a good school ,one i think is PRD.that give you a turbine endorsement for half price and if lucky at the time,send you to Ayres Rock for tourist flights .

One thing in your favour is exchange rates.I reckon flight out ,course,turbine endorsement and board should only set you back under 20.000 Pounds

Geez ,not PRD but PHS

www.chopperline.com.au
www.phs.com.au
www.beckerhelicopters.com.au
www.bluetonguehelicopters.com.au

[Captain Lai Hai]

reference flying schools on the sunshine coast avoid the third one down.

[buttline]

Empty Pockets,

I'm a JAR CPL(H) and JAR CPL(A)/MEIR with ATPL exams in both (but still low hours in both).

All your rotary P1 time will count towards the P1 requirement for CPL(A) issue up to 100hrs. However, you still need 70hrs P1 in AEROPLANES for the multi-engine issue (which you need for the ME IR).

If you do the aeroplane ATPLs, you only need to do POF to get the rotary ATPLs added. The other way around you'll need to do POF, Performance and Aircraft General. (do the aeroplane ones first!)

To be a heli instructor under JAR you need 300hrs total time (includes FW and rotary) before starting the FI course, whereas I believe its 200hrs total time required for FW instructors...

In the UK, unless you have a connection somewhere, as a low-hours heli pilot your options are either instruction or North Sea co-joe IF they're hiring. But the FW job market in the UK sucks right now also.

As a guideline, a FW instructor in the UK makes about 20 quid an hour and a rotary instructor makes about 40 quid an hour but you'll get the 'magic' 1000hrs more quickly with lower hourly pay somewhere with better weather..

A rotary IR is only going to (potentially) help you with a North Sea position. No other operator is going to hire you as a low hours pilot with an IR for what seems to be mostly single-pilot IFR flying. However, in the FW world an ME/IR is expected by all airlines for First Officer positions..

I can't really help you on which to go for.. It's totally subjective and depends on so many factors like salary expectations, lifestyle etc. However, I'll stick my neck out and say that IMHO helicopters are a more engaging flying experience but that the FW world probably offers better long-term career and pay prospects.

IMHO:

Most challenging things learning to fly helicopters:-

- Basic lack of stability
- Hovering (but once you can do it, you can do it)
- Autorotations and engine off landings
- Confined area approaches


Most challenging things learning to fly aeroplanes:-

- managing configuration changes (flaps, speedbreaks, gear etc)
- speed (things happen quickly at 4-6 nm/min)
- Crosswind landings
- Coping with assymetric thrust (one engine out)

[The Nr Fairy]

buttline :

Last I heard it was 300 hours in helicopters to do the FI course - I've got 300 total, but only 180 or so in helicopters, so I'm short 120 hours.

Unless anyone out there knows different ?

[Whirlybird]

buttline and Nr Fairy,

It's DEFINITELY 300 hours ROTARY. I know that's not obvious from reading JAR, but that's what it is; I checked it out very thoroughly with the CAA, since I was in the same position when I got my CPL(H). Still, it gave me the excuse to go flying in the US and Russia.

[jonnyg]

PPL Training

My friend in London and wants to learn to fly rotary, he“s been quoted 5500 pounds for a PPL(H)!!!!! - he didn“t know if that was JAA or National. The airfield was in Manston. I told him they were yanking his chain or is this really possible, I think not........

[Slotty]

If it sounds too good to be true then it probably is, at a minimum of 45 hours (39 if you have a PPL(A)) at about £220 an hour then it'll be £9900 and thats a cheap rate for an hour. they can only be charging £122/hour which sounds wrong, instructors get about £45/hour!!

[Helinut]

Plus of course virtually no one in the real world does it in the minimum hours - I think NOT

[Whirlygig]

I agree with everyone else; that figure quoted is about 50% cheaper than anything I've been quoted.

As for JAA or NPPL; for helicopters the PPL(H) is the JAA exam; the NPPL is for fixed wing only at the moment which makes it tougher!

Hope that helps.

[Jarvy]

I fly with the only helicopter company at Manston and no one here
would have quoted this price. As others have said the normal
hourly rate for PPL(H) is approx 230 per hour.