New alcohol limits
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
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From: UK
I think there is no doubt that the law applies to all pilots, if you read the relevant bit of the Act.
Bertie may well be right about future problems within ASUs.
Although the requirements do not specifically seem to apply to police observers themselves, they do apply to cabin crew. What about the observers themselves being sober? - a police observer is every bit as involved in the safe operation of an aircraft as a trolley dolly.
Bertie may well be right about future problems within ASUs.
Although the requirements do not specifically seem to apply to police observers themselves, they do apply to cabin crew. What about the observers themselves being sober? - a police observer is every bit as involved in the safe operation of an aircraft as a trolley dolly.
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 352
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From: Andover, Hampshire
I fail to see what the problem is. If the new rule states that you cant have a drink 24hrs before strapping the aircraft to your arse then thats the rule.......live with it. It appears that pilots are a bunch of sots who cant get by without a drink for a day!
However, I do agree that this limit should be "across the board", mechanics, technicians, police officers, cabin crew etc..
This is just another example of over-regulation by the authorities.
We have the same problem over here with Transport Canada.
However, I do agree that this limit should be "across the board", mechanics, technicians, police officers, cabin crew etc..
This is just another example of over-regulation by the authorities.
We have the same problem over here with Transport Canada.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,365
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From: UK
KENNYR,
I am not antagonistic to the idea of controlling drinking in aviation at all. Working on a regular shift pattern as I do these days, I simply do not drink while I am in a set of shifts and save my drinking until I am OFF.
However, I think there are some problems with the regulations. because they are not as you suggest they should be. If it was a simple rule, like a 24 hr rule, then OK. The problem is that the requirements are set in alcohol levels that are so low that it is not at all clear how long you need to stop driniking in order to be sure that you would pass a test.
Talking to police and medics, they do not seem to know either.
Basically, the regs have been designed to be easy to enforce, but without much regard to allowing those having duties to be sure they comply.
I am not antagonistic to the idea of controlling drinking in aviation at all. Working on a regular shift pattern as I do these days, I simply do not drink while I am in a set of shifts and save my drinking until I am OFF.
However, I think there are some problems with the regulations. because they are not as you suggest they should be. If it was a simple rule, like a 24 hr rule, then OK. The problem is that the requirements are set in alcohol levels that are so low that it is not at all clear how long you need to stop driniking in order to be sure that you would pass a test.
Talking to police and medics, they do not seem to know either.
Basically, the regs have been designed to be easy to enforce, but without much regard to allowing those having duties to be sure they comply.
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 408
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From: London
The only problem that I can see with having an across the board alcohol policy, is that whilst aircrew are limited in the hours/rotations that they can legally work, there is no such restriction when it comes to engineering staff who are on short term shift rotations.
I've lost track of the number of times that I've finished work, and not due to resume again for 48 hrs. Then the phone goes, telling me XXX was sick, and I would have to go back on shift in 7 or 8 hrs.
I've never had a problem with this (it's all overtime!), but what would happen if I said I'd just had a few beers, and was not legally able to work for 48 hours?.
I know I would legally be able to refuse to work, but this would soon have an effect on any future prospects with my company.
Not being fixed wing orientated, could someone tell me, are airline cabin crew working hours regulated to the same extent as flying crew?
419
I've lost track of the number of times that I've finished work, and not due to resume again for 48 hrs. Then the phone goes, telling me XXX was sick, and I would have to go back on shift in 7 or 8 hrs.
I've never had a problem with this (it's all overtime!), but what would happen if I said I'd just had a few beers, and was not legally able to work for 48 hours?.
I know I would legally be able to refuse to work, but this would soon have an effect on any future prospects with my company.
Not being fixed wing orientated, could someone tell me, are airline cabin crew working hours regulated to the same extent as flying crew?
419
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 59
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From: UK
419
In all fairness, an onshore commercial pilot may not be due to fly for 2 days, but what if they where to get a last minute call for (example) an airport taxi, and they had a beer last night? It works on both sides.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the body produce an amount of alcohol naturally anway? and with such a low allowance by law, might that not be cutting fine if you eat or drink the wrong thing?
In all fairness, an onshore commercial pilot may not be due to fly for 2 days, but what if they where to get a last minute call for (example) an airport taxi, and they had a beer last night? It works on both sides.
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the body produce an amount of alcohol naturally anway? and with such a low allowance by law, might that not be cutting fine if you eat or drink the wrong thing?
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 398
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From: UK
After years of listening to the Bobbies telling me that they were ‘Crew’ and not ‘Passengers’ (as defined in the PAOM) It was interesting to hear them backtrack today as they insisted the legislation didn’t apply to them because they were passengers after all!
Joined: Aug 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,629
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From: SW England
I've a funny feeling the first 'shop' under the new legislation will come from a police ASU !
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 245
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From: Lagos
c s c,
I have a friend who has not drunk alcohol for more than 5 years but often has close to 20mg/100 ml of alcohol in his blood when he is tested during our company random alcohol and drug tests. This is because his body naturally produces ethanol. People like him are probably one of the reasons that the limit has not been fixed at zero.
You stated that:
and then that time does not come into it, but I seem to remember from my schoolboy math that rate is the number of times something happenswithin a given period of time, so I don't quite get your point there.
I decided to make more of a search since there is a lot of contradictory and confusing information on this thread and none of it seems to come from people with medical qualifications (Flying Doctor - are you out there?).
I found the following information:
at this site:
The Drink Wheel - Calculate Your Blood Alcohol
The University of Oklahoma Police Department also has a useful guide at this site:
The Police Notebook
If you're worried that you may be affected you can buy your own testing equipment via this site:
Blood Alcohol Testing Kits
It's obviously quite a complicated subject and if you don't want to fail a test the only advice must be to severely reduce your alcohol intake the night before you fly.
I have a friend who has not drunk alcohol for more than 5 years but often has close to 20mg/100 ml of alcohol in his blood when he is tested during our company random alcohol and drug tests. This is because his body naturally produces ethanol. People like him are probably one of the reasons that the limit has not been fixed at zero.
You stated that:
The important factor is the rate at which your body converts it into BAC.
I decided to make more of a search since there is a lot of contradictory and confusing information on this thread and none of it seems to come from people with medical qualifications (Flying Doctor - are you out there?).
I found the following information:
In general, the less you weigh the more you will be affected by a given amount of alcohol. As detailed above, alcohol has a high affinity for water. Basically one's blood alcohol concentration is a function of the total amount of alcohol in one's system divided by total body water. So for two individuals with similar body compositions and different weights, the larger individual will achieve lower alcohol concentrations than the smaller one if ingesting the same amount of alcohol.
The Drink Wheel - Calculate Your Blood Alcohol
The University of Oklahoma Police Department also has a useful guide at this site:
The Police Notebook
If you're worried that you may be affected you can buy your own testing equipment via this site:
Blood Alcohol Testing Kits
It's obviously quite a complicated subject and if you don't want to fail a test the only advice must be to severely reduce your alcohol intake the night before you fly.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 245
Likes: 0
From: Lagos
c s c
Our company alcohol tests are done using urine.
There is a bit more on the possibility of endogenous alcohol in the body in a thread on BAC in the Medical Forum, but must admit it does seem to be inconclusive (although the UK GASIL report does refer to alcohol naturally occurring in the bodies of some people).
I agree that the only sure way of knowing if you can be considered fit now is to buy a testing kit - hence the last link in my previous post.
Hope not too many errors here as have been consuming some wine tonight - luckily I'm not on duty tomorrow!
Interesting subject though isn't it?
Our company alcohol tests are done using urine.
There is a bit more on the possibility of endogenous alcohol in the body in a thread on BAC in the Medical Forum, but must admit it does seem to be inconclusive (although the UK GASIL report does refer to alcohol naturally occurring in the bodies of some people).
I agree that the only sure way of knowing if you can be considered fit now is to buy a testing kit - hence the last link in my previous post.
Hope not too many errors here as have been consuming some wine tonight - luckily I'm not on duty tomorrow!
Interesting subject though isn't it?
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 158
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From: Canada
Fascinating discussion..now to throw a spitball...
Are you folks serious about buying a breathalyzer so that you can test yourselves before going flying?
How about abstaining?
We are not talking about a bunch of teenagers wondering at 2 am if one of us is sober enough to drive; we are professional pilots, after all, and should be thinking about how we can conduct ourselves with the utmost regard to safety, etc.
If I need a breathalyzer to determine if I should be going flying, then it is indeed time to call in sick, and go see my MD about getting some addictions counselling....
My $Cdn 0.02....I await you spitballs in reply...
Are you folks serious about buying a breathalyzer so that you can test yourselves before going flying?
How about abstaining?
We are not talking about a bunch of teenagers wondering at 2 am if one of us is sober enough to drive; we are professional pilots, after all, and should be thinking about how we can conduct ourselves with the utmost regard to safety, etc.
If I need a breathalyzer to determine if I should be going flying, then it is indeed time to call in sick, and go see my MD about getting some addictions counselling....
My $Cdn 0.02....I await you spitballs in reply...
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
From: Canada
csc..point taken.
I guess the issue I was trying to highlight was this:
If having a single drink can put your license at risk, then why risk it? Is this not why many plank drivers live under a 24 hr abstention rule? I enjoy a rum toddy as much as the next guy, but if having one during a social event is going to put my livelihood at risk....????
... and if I cannot socialize without having a drink, then .... ?
wde
I guess the issue I was trying to highlight was this:
If having a single drink can put your license at risk, then why risk it? Is this not why many plank drivers live under a 24 hr abstention rule? I enjoy a rum toddy as much as the next guy, but if having one during a social event is going to put my livelihood at risk....????
... and if I cannot socialize without having a drink, then .... ?
wde
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
From: uk
Zebedee,
I think you have misunderstood the previous posts regarding endogenous ethanol production - the human body can not synthesize the enzymes required to metabolize sugars in to ethanol, this can only be done by yeasts and similar micro-organisms. Therefore all ethanol found "naturally" in the body is produced by candida etc in the gut.
I realise if you do not have a scientific background this may be difficult to grasp.
May I also suggest that a pilot suffering from candida over-growth is as great a liability as a pilot who knowingly consumes alcohol, if not more so because he has no control over the amount of alcohol in his system?
It states clearly that a healthy body produces ethanol in measurable quantities
I realise if you do not have a scientific background this may be difficult to grasp.
May I also suggest that a pilot suffering from candida over-growth is as great a liability as a pilot who knowingly consumes alcohol, if not more so because he has no control over the amount of alcohol in his system?
