New alcohol limits
Thread Starter
New blood/alcohol limit for pilots
The (believe it or not) RAILWAYS AND TRANSPORT SAFETY ACT 2003 regarding this clause, comes into force in February 2004.
In it it states that under JAR-OPS limits, the new maximum limit for pilots ATCO's and cabin crews blood alcohol limit, will be reduced from 80mg of alcohol/100mg blood; to 20mg/100mg.
This is the equivalent of drinking a quarter of a pint of medium strength beer, or not even one tot of spirits!!
If the old limit was adhered to (80mg), then the time it would take for that limit to reduce to the new limit, would/could be 24hrs!!!
Basically to remain below the new limit would mean not drinking AT ALL from >1 day before until immediately after your long run of continuous shifts
Aircraft licensed engineers are mentioned in this, but because they are perceived as not as great a threat to transport safety as the others (
), then they can retain their original limit.
{Actually it's because everyone knows that engineers can't hold their own
}
Penalty for busting the limit: fine and/or up to 2 yrs in prison!!
The UK altered the penalty system a fraction by removing the other penalty clause which may exist elsewhere in Europe: Loss of licence
Persons responsible for prosecuting this new law: PC plod!!!!
They are not allowed to board an a/c, nor do a random test, but they can request to meet up with the 'target' and breathalyse him away from the a/c and in private (thats OK then).
It is being suggested, that if a crew member/ATCO is targetted, that they be given the rest of the shift off because of the stress of waiting to see if they fail the test
2 pilots from an unnamed airline -recently resigned immediately prior to being tested, because they were advised (apparently) that if they exceeded the limit, they would lose their licences too [existing system (80mg), not the new law where LOL is not an option].
Oooh er missus!
In it it states that under JAR-OPS limits, the new maximum limit for pilots ATCO's and cabin crews blood alcohol limit, will be reduced from 80mg of alcohol/100mg blood; to 20mg/100mg.
This is the equivalent of drinking a quarter of a pint of medium strength beer, or not even one tot of spirits!!
If the old limit was adhered to (80mg), then the time it would take for that limit to reduce to the new limit, would/could be 24hrs!!!
Basically to remain below the new limit would mean not drinking AT ALL from >1 day before until immediately after your long run of continuous shifts
Aircraft licensed engineers are mentioned in this, but because they are perceived as not as great a threat to transport safety as the others (
), then they can retain their original limit.{Actually it's because everyone knows that engineers can't hold their own
}Penalty for busting the limit: fine and/or up to 2 yrs in prison!!
The UK altered the penalty system a fraction by removing the other penalty clause which may exist elsewhere in Europe: Loss of licence
Persons responsible for prosecuting this new law: PC plod!!!!
They are not allowed to board an a/c, nor do a random test, but they can request to meet up with the 'target' and breathalyse him away from the a/c and in private (thats OK then).
It is being suggested, that if a crew member/ATCO is targetted, that they be given the rest of the shift off because of the stress of waiting to see if they fail the test
2 pilots from an unnamed airline -recently resigned immediately prior to being tested, because they were advised (apparently) that if they exceeded the limit, they would lose their licences too [existing system (80mg), not the new law where LOL is not an option].
Oooh er missus!
Avoid imitations
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TC,
I never realised I could have had up to 80% alcohol in my circulatory system. Oh, think of all those times I have not had a drink because I was flying the next day. What a waste of good beer!
Still, a 20% alcohol solution in the blood is not too bad......
I never realised I could have had up to 80% alcohol in my circulatory system. Oh, think of all those times I have not had a drink because I was flying the next day. What a waste of good beer!
Still, a 20% alcohol solution in the blood is not too bad......
I'm afraid I see no harm in it at-all. I found out about the new 20%mg limit a while ago and having a few hours to spare, did some research in the RAeS library in London. Below are my findings (I have posted them before, but not in this forum).
G
The basic unit of alcohol within the body is mg/100ml of blood (referred to as %mg BAL). Obviously the relationship between how much you drink and BAL is dependent upon sex, weight, and a few other things. But the references seem to pretty much agree on the following rules of thumb for a standard adult:-
1 pint beer: 24%mg within an hour (can be up to 35%mg, depending upon strength of beer which clearly varies)
1 measure spirits: 12%mg within an hour
1 small glass wine: 15%mg within an hour.
The body (liver) then evacuates alcohol at a pretty constant rate of 15%mg per hour - although the references do admit that depending upon physiology it can actually be anywhere between 8 and 25 %mg/hour.
That stuff most of us had some idea about, but certainly it helps work out where we are after a good night out.
Now to the interesting bit - what the various studies gave as effects of alcohol. The various reports, papers and medical textbooks were pretty consistent. From them I came up with the following:-
11%mg - Reduced ability to maintain correct airspeed or flightpath under high workload
15%mg - 1/3 of pilots in fatal accidents had this level or above in their bodies (from autopsy reports)
20%mg - UK legal flying limit. Significant increase in errors on RT, planning and correct following of procedures.
40%mg - US legal flying limit. Major effect on number of errors on RT and following procedures.
- Reduction in g tolerance by between 0.1 and 0.4g.
50%mg - Impaired ability to visually fix or track objects
60%mg - Consistent degredation of long term performance even on low workload tasks.
80%mg - UK legal driving limit
150%mg - loss of self control (exactly what is meant by this wasn't defined)
200%mg - double vision, some loss of memory
400%mg - Loss of consciousness.
Three other notes were interesting...
(1) from a study where they tanked pilots up to 150%mg which was that afterwards when BAL had gone down to zero, visual impairment and disorientation could occur up to 7 hours afterwards.
(2) All the studies agreed that under high workload alcohol degraded pilots' performance much more than under low workload.
(3) Up until very high alcohol levels, virtually all the degredation was of judgment or ability to follow procedure, rather than of actual physical skills.
G
The basic unit of alcohol within the body is mg/100ml of blood (referred to as %mg BAL). Obviously the relationship between how much you drink and BAL is dependent upon sex, weight, and a few other things. But the references seem to pretty much agree on the following rules of thumb for a standard adult:-
1 pint beer: 24%mg within an hour (can be up to 35%mg, depending upon strength of beer which clearly varies)
1 measure spirits: 12%mg within an hour
1 small glass wine: 15%mg within an hour.
The body (liver) then evacuates alcohol at a pretty constant rate of 15%mg per hour - although the references do admit that depending upon physiology it can actually be anywhere between 8 and 25 %mg/hour.
That stuff most of us had some idea about, but certainly it helps work out where we are after a good night out.
Now to the interesting bit - what the various studies gave as effects of alcohol. The various reports, papers and medical textbooks were pretty consistent. From them I came up with the following:-
11%mg - Reduced ability to maintain correct airspeed or flightpath under high workload
15%mg - 1/3 of pilots in fatal accidents had this level or above in their bodies (from autopsy reports)
20%mg - UK legal flying limit. Significant increase in errors on RT, planning and correct following of procedures.
40%mg - US legal flying limit. Major effect on number of errors on RT and following procedures.
- Reduction in g tolerance by between 0.1 and 0.4g.
50%mg - Impaired ability to visually fix or track objects
60%mg - Consistent degredation of long term performance even on low workload tasks.
80%mg - UK legal driving limit
150%mg - loss of self control (exactly what is meant by this wasn't defined)
200%mg - double vision, some loss of memory
400%mg - Loss of consciousness.
Three other notes were interesting...
(1) from a study where they tanked pilots up to 150%mg which was that afterwards when BAL had gone down to zero, visual impairment and disorientation could occur up to 7 hours afterwards.
(2) All the studies agreed that under high workload alcohol degraded pilots' performance much more than under low workload.
(3) Up until very high alcohol levels, virtually all the degredation was of judgment or ability to follow procedure, rather than of actual physical skills.
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For those who are interested in the source, this I believe is the relevant part of the relevant legislation:
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30020--f.htm#92
I am sort of just surprised that it has almost come into effect without any of us having been advised about it - but now we know!
For the avoidance of doubt, if I read it right it applies to PPLs as well as commercial pilots.
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2003/30020--f.htm#92
I am sort of just surprised that it has almost come into effect without any of us having been advised about it - but now we know!
For the avoidance of doubt, if I read it right it applies to PPLs as well as commercial pilots.
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Drinking and Flying
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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We work on about eight hours from bottle to throttle........ except in the terratory, where we work on about eight feet. 
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Hey guys, Im new to Pprune, but here is my 2p worth.
Although I agree with the aspect of greater concerns for safety, I struggle to understand why it doesn't carry across to other fields where there are similar concerns.
Personally I think engineers should have the same limits as they are just as involved with the safety of an aircarft as the pilots are - I wouldn't want a hungover engineer with impaired abilities due to the night before doing an overhaul / 50hr check on any mchine that I or any friends would be flying.
And drivers - how many drink driving offences or worse deaths are there on the roads? - in my mind too many, so why isolate pilots?
Any thoughts?
Although I agree with the aspect of greater concerns for safety, I struggle to understand why it doesn't carry across to other fields where there are similar concerns.
Personally I think engineers should have the same limits as they are just as involved with the safety of an aircarft as the pilots are - I wouldn't want a hungover engineer with impaired abilities due to the night before doing an overhaul / 50hr check on any mchine that I or any friends would be flying.
And drivers - how many drink driving offences or worse deaths are there on the roads? - in my mind too many, so why isolate pilots?
Any thoughts?
Not longer than 25 minutes before a night flight and not within sight of the aircraft...."Crew, About Face!"
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its ok TC the old bill can enter your aircraft
98 Right of entry
(1) A constable in uniform may board an aircraft if he reasonably suspects that he may wish to exercise a power by virtue of section 96 or under section 97 in respect of a person who is or may be on the aircraft.
(2) A constable in uniform may enter any place if he reasonably suspects that he may wish to exercise a power by virtue of section 96 or under section 97 in respect of a person who is or may be in that place.
(3) For the purposes of boarding an aircraft or entering a place under this section a constable-
(a) may use reasonable force;
(b) may be accompanied by one or more persons.
(1) A constable in uniform may board an aircraft if he reasonably suspects that he may wish to exercise a power by virtue of section 96 or under section 97 in respect of a person who is or may be on the aircraft.
(2) A constable in uniform may enter any place if he reasonably suspects that he may wish to exercise a power by virtue of section 96 or under section 97 in respect of a person who is or may be in that place.
(3) For the purposes of boarding an aircraft or entering a place under this section a constable-
(a) may use reasonable force;
(b) may be accompanied by one or more persons.
Powerup, I agree with you completely. Going back to my earlier post, it seems that judgement is the first thing to go. So a maintenance engineer is judging whether a component is fit to remain on an aircraft, or a design engineer is checking whether a piece of design can be accepted. Both chaps need their judgement at 100% - pure mechanical skill tasks can be slowed down, decisions are more difficult.
I have seen an aircraft destroyed (thankfullly without loss of life) due to a manager making an unjustifiable decision after a liquid lunch. He was eased gently out into early retirement shortly afterwards - my opinion at the time was that he should have had the book thrown at him, and my view's not changed yet.
For that matter it should be applied to everybody in this industry, whether it's a pilot or engineer, or a receptionist or accountant. Everybody is making decisions that affect safety and/or the viability of our employers. I want my colleagues sober in working hours !
G
I have seen an aircraft destroyed (thankfullly without loss of life) due to a manager making an unjustifiable decision after a liquid lunch. He was eased gently out into early retirement shortly afterwards - my opinion at the time was that he should have had the book thrown at him, and my view's not changed yet.
For that matter it should be applied to everybody in this industry, whether it's a pilot or engineer, or a receptionist or accountant. Everybody is making decisions that affect safety and/or the viability of our employers. I want my colleagues sober in working hours !
G
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The nice old CAA have got around to telling us commercial pilots in a FODCOM - not sure how private pilots are supposed to know about it:
www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200328.pdf
The abbreviated title of the pdf file may prove significant!
A randomly selected sample of plods on the ground know about as much as we do at the moment. When pressed, they seem to consider it "the same as driving" but with limits at around 15% of the driving limit.
May I wish all of you due to fly early in the New Year in the UK a fairly abstemious holiday!
www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/FOD200328.pdf
The abbreviated title of the pdf file may prove significant!
A randomly selected sample of plods on the ground know about as much as we do at the moment. When pressed, they seem to consider it "the same as driving" but with limits at around 15% of the driving limit.
May I wish all of you due to fly early in the New Year in the UK a fairly abstemious holiday!
Last edited by Helinut; 24th Dec 2003 at 18:12.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer. A UK term for qualified maintenance professionals - some countries might call them technicians or mechanics (and some UK LAME's are very insulted by being called anything but Engineer).
G
G
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Tudor.....
[No this is not my first post...just had to reset my membership following a virus].
I know this is a cop out....but I don't mention it for that reason.
If you are drinking and silly enough to drive or try to fly, then never ever supply a test sample if caught. [Assumming you realise that your well over the limit]
Yes you will be charged with failing to "Provide a Sample". But that charge on your future resume is far less damaging than drunken driving or flying!!
You can mitigate that charge by many statements, but its hard to mitigate that your a drunken driver or pilot.
I know this is a cop out....but I don't mention it for that reason.
If you are drinking and silly enough to drive or try to fly, then never ever supply a test sample if caught. [Assumming you realise that your well over the limit]
Yes you will be charged with failing to "Provide a Sample". But that charge on your future resume is far less damaging than drunken driving or flying!!
You can mitigate that charge by many statements, but its hard to mitigate that your a drunken driver or pilot.
Thread Starter
The charge is still on your licence for 10 years. Try explaining why you refused your tests, to your future employees!
But on face value, you're right.
The lesser of 2 evils, I suppose.
This new law, does it affect NON commercial pilots - can't find anything to say it does?
It effectively means for most 'mere mortals' that ANY alcohol consumed within, say 24hrs of going on shift, might probably push you over the limit.
Any VIRGIN pilots listening
But on face value, you're right.
The lesser of 2 evils, I suppose.
This new law, does it affect NON commercial pilots - can't find anything to say it does?
It effectively means for most 'mere mortals' that ANY alcohol consumed within, say 24hrs of going on shift, might probably push you over the limit.
Any VIRGIN pilots listening
On my roster this limits me to an evening drink on just 2 nights in 15.
How long before the first police air observer (CAA passenger), the morning after, nabs his own pilot for being over the 20mg limit, while said police officer can be up to 80mg?
A lot more pilots are going to be catching 'one day colds' in order to avoid any "complications"!
How long before the first police air observer (CAA passenger), the morning after, nabs his own pilot for being over the 20mg limit, while said police officer can be up to 80mg?
A lot more pilots are going to be catching 'one day colds' in order to avoid any "complications"!
Last edited by Bertie Thruster; 28th Dec 2003 at 17:13.