Helicopter instruction: Cost etc
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I qualified as an AFI last year but as I had to stay at work as a marine engineer to pay off my loans etc, I've been unable to find a position of employment instructing as yet. Every company I've approached has turned me down due, I think, to the fact that there are a large number of AFI/FI's at the minute (in the UK that is). Do I just give it all up and forget about ever flying and doing the job I once dreamed of, or do I stay current (more and more expense) and keep my fingers crossed?
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Hello all!
OK, I've just joined this fraternity and the subject of low hours instructors is probably going to be very relevant to me soon, as it's probably the direction I, like all my predecesors, will have to take!
I would also be interested to know what the attitude is towards University flying school and the pilots that they churn out. I've spent the last year or so trying to pay my own way for a CPL, it's been a struggle financially and I managed to clock up around 50 hours, every one of which has been damn good fun! Now, out of the blue I have been offered a place on a University course, which will give me another 150 hours and a CPL (and just over 80 hours fixed wing with a fixed wing PPL). It will also leave me with a rather large student loan to pay off, but there you go!
I know I'll be trying VERY hard to get a job because I'm determined and it's what I want to do. I think I'll have some pro's and cons, I'm 42 years old, so at least I'll look experienced! but then again I'm 42 years old....
I'd hate to think that I was also up against an industry that regards University trained pilots in a bad way.
Have fun
The angry palm tree
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
OK, I've just joined this fraternity and the subject of low hours instructors is probably going to be very relevant to me soon, as it's probably the direction I, like all my predecesors, will have to take!
I would also be interested to know what the attitude is towards University flying school and the pilots that they churn out. I've spent the last year or so trying to pay my own way for a CPL, it's been a struggle financially and I managed to clock up around 50 hours, every one of which has been damn good fun! Now, out of the blue I have been offered a place on a University course, which will give me another 150 hours and a CPL (and just over 80 hours fixed wing with a fixed wing PPL). It will also leave me with a rather large student loan to pay off, but there you go!
I know I'll be trying VERY hard to get a job because I'm determined and it's what I want to do. I think I'll have some pro's and cons, I'm 42 years old, so at least I'll look experienced! but then again I'm 42 years old....
I'd hate to think that I was also up against an industry that regards University trained pilots in a bad way.
Have fun
The angry palm tree
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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I still get a kick out of teaching someone to pilot a helo. It is one of lifes great thrills to see that grin broaden and spread accross someones face once they have nailed hovering. I will always keep my Instructor rating current as there is always work during the slow times in other sectors of the industry. Put it this way - if it wasnt for becoming an instructor I would not currently be flying in one of the most beautiful countries in the world, on good money, everything paid for & a very challenging if not the most challenging helicopter enviornmet in the world. Instructing on helicopters gives you the only chance to "mess & muck" around with a piece of kit with no boss going to bawl you out for time wasting. Dont get to muck around too much these days with the gear cause trying to get them to turn a buck but I await in anticipation to `learn' that next helicopter enthusiast with relish & excitment. Keep on pulling the world out of the s**t chaps.
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AdvancingBlade,
I would have replied eariler but I've been busy and forgot to check this thread.
The pay is better up here. I know where you are now, you'll know of me too as Andy took some copies of my book. Say Hi to Nigel for me, met him last week, we flew a little and I took the pics that are on my website (Rec. flying NZ and visit Schwiezer page, www.helicopterpilotsguide.com
Angry palm is round the corner from me and is doing the northern version of the same course you do down there.
Helimutt - Yes, I agree on the glut of UK AFI'S , I wrote to someone on another thread
about it I think. It's real hard I know but a friend over here gave me some very good advice once. He said "If a man really wants a job he'll GET a job". And do you know, he is right, because aside from the lucky ones it is the people that just put in lots of honest graft that suceeed, so don't give up eh? Future Pilots need you !
SPS
Outside the square on an oblate sphere that shrinks in an expanding universe.
I would have replied eariler but I've been busy and forgot to check this thread.
The pay is better up here. I know where you are now, you'll know of me too as Andy took some copies of my book. Say Hi to Nigel for me, met him last week, we flew a little and I took the pics that are on my website (Rec. flying NZ and visit Schwiezer page, www.helicopterpilotsguide.com
Angry palm is round the corner from me and is doing the northern version of the same course you do down there.
Helimutt - Yes, I agree on the glut of UK AFI'S , I wrote to someone on another thread
about it I think. It's real hard I know but a friend over here gave me some very good advice once. He said "If a man really wants a job he'll GET a job". And do you know, he is right, because aside from the lucky ones it is the people that just put in lots of honest graft that suceeed, so don't give up eh? Future Pilots need you !
SPS
Outside the square on an oblate sphere that shrinks in an expanding universe.
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QHI remuneration query
Excuse the posh title!. .. .Have done a search but can't trawl anything up. Can anyone indicate an average figure that a QHI can expect to earn in the home counties as an assistant instructor and a full instructor teaching PPLs on Robbies.. .. .Thanks. .. .A
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Well, the exact figure varies but "not enough to make a living" probably sums it up.. .. .Seriously, it helps if you are doing it because you love flying and you love teaching. If you are in it just for the money you will probably be disappointed.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 20:27: Message edited by: Grainger ]</small>
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Most of us would be happy to advise but, Abbeville, as you do not reveal much about yourself, you're possibly not going to get a straight forward reply.. . . . <small>[ 06 March 2002, 20:42: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>
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Fair call Balance_Trim!. .. .Am currently flying aloominim overcasts and am still an active light aircraft pilot in my spare time. Retirement from airline flying is, regrettably, in sight now and I was thinking of a new challenge to keep the old 2bit brain active. I am seriously considering flingwings, having done a couple of instructional trips a few years ago and really enjoyed it. I couldn't continue then because I couldnt afford it!. .. .My rationale is to do something worthwhile but I still need to work out whether or not I can earn enough instructing on flingwings, to recoup the considerable investment, and perhaps make some beer money as well! I don't intend this to seem mercenary - merely practical.. .. .Any top tips would be appreciated.. .. .Regds. .ABB
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Ok Abbe here you go and all costs are appox. of course. If you're in the UK, you got to look at around £10 - 12000 to get you rotary licence. (You do get a dispensation for the fixed wing but it's not worth considering in the equation until you go try a whirly and see how you adapt to it). Then you have to build 200hrs PI rotary in order to do the FI course (say around £27000) and then you do the FI course (I'd guess around £7000 ish). After that little lot (lets call it around £45000) you come out with an FI(R). If you're jolly lucky you might get some work from a busy school who will provide the FI cover for you while you're restricted. During this time, the rough going rate for an FI(R) is around the £35 per flying hour mark with nothing for giving ground school tuition. Once you've instructed for 100 hours AND obtained 25 signatures (from your CFI, for supervising 25 solo student flights), you can apply to have the FI(R) restriction lifted. Now, as a fully fledged FI you can charge around £40 per hour.. .. .As you can see it takes an awful lot of instructing to get your money back (and don't let my wife see this post!)! However, the joy and personal satisfaction I get from teaching something that I love (not to mention the entertainment value), has it own intrinsic value and far outweighs the financial considerations of doing it.
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balance-trim,. .. .Aren't you a bit out of date on this? Since JAR, the requirement has been 155 hours (can count some f/w, but not that many) then CPL ground exams and 30 hour flying course, then after 300 hours TT including 100 PIC (ALL rotary) do instructors course to become FI(R). Now, that may be different if you've been flying f/w commercially, so it may be me who's got it all wrong. Anyone know for certain?. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 14:39: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]</small>
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Whirly - You're quite right times have changed, but the difficulty is trying to put down chapter and verse of the current requirements, made especially complicated if you hold this, but not that and have time on the other (if you see what I mean). If one reads GID26 JAR CPL(H) (17/10/01)there's all sort of changeable parameters that Abbeville might want to consider. Abbeville holds (one assumes) an ATPL so does get dispensations all over the place. I was trying to give a general overview of the sort of costs to be expected, ie lots! . .The payment part is as accurate as I can tell at the moment, based on personal circumstances.. .. .Ps - how's you hour building going
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Abbeville. .. .Whirly's comments made me surf the net to find out how much it has changed. .since I did it. According to JAR-FCL 2.335 Pre-requisite requirements of. .the FI(H) course are. .. .a) At least 300 hrs flight time (of which at least 100hrs shall be PIC if. .holding ATPL(H) or CPL(H) OR 200 hours PIC if holding a PPL(H) - no reduction in the PIC time even if you hold f/w time. .. .b) met the knowledge requirements for a CPL(H) as set out in AMC FCL. .2.470(b) - basically have passed all the written CPL exams (with the heli versions). .. .c)10 hr instrument flight instruction. .. .d) 20 hrs cross country as PIC. .. .e) passed a specific pre-entry flight test within 6 months preceding the. .start of the course.. .. .So in essence, my numbers in the earlier post still seem reasonably. .accurate as they were based on obtaining a PPL(H), building 200hrs PIC, then completing the instructor course.. .The full blurb is available on the CAA website <a href="http://www.caa.co.uk" target="_blank">www.caa.co.uk</a> and the JAA website <a href="http://www.jaa.nl" target="_blank">www.jaa.nl</a>. .. .Good Luck. . . . <small>[ 07 March 2002, 21:22: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>
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I have a few questions if anyone is willing to answer them:. .. .I was wondering about how many flying hours per year one could expect flying in these positions at 35 pounds per flying hour?. .Also, what is the cost of living in comparison to other locales (I'm Canadian)? Rent, house prices, groceries, etc.. .Does the wage increase with experience?. .. .Thanks in advance
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balance_trim. .. .you are in danger of getting a free beer from me.. .. .Much appreciate the trouble you have gone to. Lot of useful stuff there.. .. .Many thanks. .. .Abb. ............................... .. .Takatakataka...Mein Gott those Fokkers are Messerschmidts!!!
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Abbeville - happy to help where I can - email me if you want any more info.. .Heloteacher - Hard to answer your questions really and these answers will probably not help much, but here goes.. .Hours - depends on the school and whether you work 5, 6 or 7 days a week. Demand for ppl instruction generally is greater at weekends than weekdays. Some schools much busier than others due to their location. Some only do commercial instruction, some both, some private only. . .Pay - unlikely to go up by much, unless you start getting more qualifications ie Instrument, commercial instruction, bigger machines, twins, TRE etc. I don't know for sure by how much as I'm at the bottom of the scale - R22's, R44's and B206's and without any additional qualifications/ratings. This is typically the freelance rate. Many instructors are on a salary and probably wouldn't care to divulge their income. Perhaps some more experienced instructors would care to comment.. .Cost of Living - don't really know how to provide a useful comparison. You'd need to specify some items and we could let you know how much they cost here.. .rgds Balance. . . . <small>[ 08 March 2002, 21:03: Message edited by: balance_trim ]</small>
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Balance-Trim,. .. .I believe that unfortunately you have missed one important part of JAR-FCL 2 in your summary. Under JAR-FCL 2 you cannot be paid for your flying (whether as an instructor or not)unless you hold a commercial licence. This only applies to those starting since JAR-FCL 2 came into force.. .. .It is not the end of the world, because you only need to add a CPL(H) Modular Flying course to your list. However, it is yet another expense, I am afraid.
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The reason I asked about the increased experience was because of my ratings. I'm and ATPL(H), IFR, multi-experience, off-shore right now in Africa, and have about 900 hrs of instructional time thus far. I enjoy the instructing life and was trying to compare what the options were in different parts of the globe.. .. .Specific cost comparisons I'd be interested in are as above: rent, house prices, average grocery bills, automobile prices, etc.. .. .As a comparison, my last ab initio job in Canada was paying $50.00 per flight hour, no base. It was not pleasant.. .. .Thanks for the info, I appreciate it.
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Helinut. .Good spot! I missed it when typing and hadn't re-read my post properly. Add in another £7-8k for that.. .. .Heloteacher. .Without absolute specifics here's an attempt to answer your questions.. .4 bed detached house in London say >£1.5M, in middle England - say £250,000, in out of the way places - say £100,000. .Rent - about the same sort of relationship as above.. .Grocery bill (depends where you shop of course, Harrods v M&S v Tesco v Lidl). Our weekly shopping bill (family of 4) is approx. £150, some friends manage to do it on £80, others £200 (depends entirely on your lifestyle - and choice of wine!!). .Supposedly a good relative cost of living indicator is a McDonalds Big Mac meal - over here it's £2.88. .Cars- small run-around new about £7000, large executive say £35000. However, petrol is currently £0.72 per litre.. .Also, checked with some other instructors more qualified than I and their thoughts are that payment varies very little with experience. Their viewe is that experience gets you the job and keeps the job but doesn't mean you get paid any (much) more for it.
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going rate for instructors in the UK ?
the company where I do PPL flight instruction on the R22, has been paying £40 per flight hour to a full FI(H) for years and years.
lately I have heard people saying they are getting £45 or £50, but others saying they are on £35 or in one case £30
I am trying to get a consensus for what the proper rate is before I ask for a raise, so come on how much you guys getting out there ? and remember it is full FI I am interested in not the restricted guys (& gals)
????
lately I have heard people saying they are getting £45 or £50, but others saying they are on £35 or in one case £30
I am trying to get a consensus for what the proper rate is before I ask for a raise, so come on how much you guys getting out there ? and remember it is full FI I am interested in not the restricted guys (& gals)
????