Hard IFR
Thread Starter
Hard IFR
I was wondering what percentage of flying in the North Sea is hard IFR......you know, 100 and 1/4 and lots of misses, alternates crapping out and whatnot.
And are there any other areas besides Canada's East Coast that gets very much?
And are there any other areas besides Canada's East Coast that gets very much?
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Just trying to show you what it can become.....boring just showing a photo of a cloud !!!
Winter time......% wise....I don't really know.....depends....been stuck offshore enough times to not care anymore...misses ? Our minimas are higher 3/4 and 200-day......but a few a year......weather info is fairly reliable...crappy alternates = 4-5 months of the year
Winter time......% wise....I don't really know.....depends....been stuck offshore enough times to not care anymore...misses ? Our minimas are higher 3/4 and 200-day......but a few a year......weather info is fairly reliable...crappy alternates = 4-5 months of the year
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Well, the NS has its bit of bad weather but it depends what you mean "Hard IFR". As dk said, JAR ops minimas are slightly higher than yours in Canada. Fog, BR, HZ and DZ are typical summer stuff while +SNRASH and ice are now becoming quite normal as winter is roling in.
All flights are IFR flights but a guestimate would be 20% IFR approaches while the rest starts out as IFR appr. and turns in to visual approaches.
How is it in Canada, and what kind of Radar do you use to get as close as 1/4 of a mile?
Do you use DGPS or Rnav?
Is GPS approved as primary IFR nav.aid?
All flights are IFR flights but a guestimate would be 20% IFR approaches while the rest starts out as IFR appr. and turns in to visual approaches.
How is it in Canada, and what kind of Radar do you use to get as close as 1/4 of a mile?
Do you use DGPS or Rnav?
Is GPS approved as primary IFR nav.aid?
Thread Starter
Yea, the image I have is basically "in the ping-pong ball". Yours is a great shot!
Of the 400 odd hours I flew last year, I logged 80 hours of actual in the soup (not on top) with over 60 instrument approaches with almost 20 misses (in my defense, they often send us when its zero-zero and we keep overshooting at the FAF till bingo fuel). Provided we have 1/4 mile reported, we go to 1/2 mile 50' above the deck down to 150' with the radar, and quite often you can't even see the water. The 100 feet and 1/4 comment was regarding back at base, where its regularly calling 100 and 1/4 but we're usually visual at 200' on the ILS. Thank goodness for high-intensity lighting!
I was curious as we had a fellow through here recently that claimed to have not flown that much actual to mins in the North Sea, and I was under the impression that you lads did a fair bit....hence the question!
Of the 400 odd hours I flew last year, I logged 80 hours of actual in the soup (not on top) with over 60 instrument approaches with almost 20 misses (in my defense, they often send us when its zero-zero and we keep overshooting at the FAF till bingo fuel). Provided we have 1/4 mile reported, we go to 1/2 mile 50' above the deck down to 150' with the radar, and quite often you can't even see the water. The 100 feet and 1/4 comment was regarding back at base, where its regularly calling 100 and 1/4 but we're usually visual at 200' on the ILS. Thank goodness for high-intensity lighting!
I was curious as we had a fellow through here recently that claimed to have not flown that much actual to mins in the North Sea, and I was under the impression that you lads did a fair bit....hence the question!
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Bladestrike
I think we do about the same then. Flew around 650hr`s last year, but there is a difference. If the weather is crappy, we don`t take of until there is a fair chance of getting down offshore. The customer is quite good about taking our advise as to "go-nogo".
If visibility is below 800m. then we are not allowed to pass the offset point at 1.5 NM. Hence, this becomes our missed approach point.
How do you calibrate the Radar for ARA approaches and how often is that done?
Which rules do you fly by? JAR-OPS?
If visibility is below 800m. then we are not allowed to pass the offset point at 1.5 NM. Hence, this becomes our missed approach point.
How do you calibrate the Radar for ARA approaches and how often is that done?
Which rules do you fly by? JAR-OPS?
Thread Starter
Pretty much the same deal, at the FAF at 3 nm we need 1/4 reported to continue, and we operate to the CAR's, the Canadian regs.
The customer gets ansty and will often send us out at zero-zero reported, but as some of the rigs are 200 nm out, there's lots of time for improvement by the time we get there.
Rotordk, when's your next trip to Stavanger? We'll do brews.
The customer gets ansty and will often send us out at zero-zero reported, but as some of the rigs are 200 nm out, there's lots of time for improvement by the time we get there.
Rotordk, when's your next trip to Stavanger? We'll do brews.
What's the difference?
What difference does it make? Fly it to any minima THEY set, if visual,continue to land, if nothing or not enough seen, go around and to your alternate; make sure your fuel is on the safe side. Don't forget, we're not fighting a war and not saving lifes(on ordinary flights). And if the flight doesn't get done today they'll get it tomorrow.
A lot of us have been re-educated successfully by our clients; any flight puts money into the shareholders koffers and adds to my annual total, so whether it's successfull (delivering the bears) or not does not make an iota of a difference. The sooner I hit the limit I can enjoy my private aviation.
Sounds pretty desillousioned, but I had just been sacked for a day.
A lot of us have been re-educated successfully by our clients; any flight puts money into the shareholders koffers and adds to my annual total, so whether it's successfull (delivering the bears) or not does not make an iota of a difference. The sooner I hit the limit I can enjoy my private aviation.
Sounds pretty desillousioned, but I had just been sacked for a day.
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Bladestrike et al:
Interesting thread; most ARAs (at least the later ones) apply an offset at some point in the approach sequence.
As AirJockey has said, a procedure written to the JAR-OPS (ICAO PansOps based) criteria has an Offset Initiation Point at 1.5 nm - at which point a 10 degree heading change is made which, if continued beyond the MAPt (not permitted by the way), would pass the rig at a mean distance of 300m - 400m. The choice of the MAPt of 0.75 nm was based (very simply) on an aggregation of the position error, RADAR (tracking and ranging) errors, pilot reaction and rate of turn (at the MAPt) to give a probability of collision with the rig at less than or equal to the ICAO Risk Model acceptable target. At the MAPt, the pilot has to fly a rate one turning missed approach of at least 30 degrees into a Missed Approach Arc (identified on RADAR by 5 nm from the target).
An Offshore Standard Approach Procedure (OSAP) based upon the FAA AC 90-80B would have one of two type of approaches: the delta 30 has an OIP of 30 degrees initiated at a distance from the rig of 1.1 nm - the resulting track will take the helicopter to the MAP at a tangent of a circle with a radius of 0.6 nm from the rig; the second method requires the pilot to establish - by 2 nm from the rig - a parallel offset track which passes the rig by 0.5 nm - the MAP is set at 0.7 from the rig.
Each of these methods - JAA and FAA - has its merits but both have defined missed approach procedures established to avoid collision with the rig by a safe margin.
Subjectively, it could be observed that the JAA procedure appears to be optimized for rig acquisition at the MAPt as the rig should be seen on the RADAR, and in the front window, at that point; the OSAP procedure appears to be optimized for missed approach as, at the MAP, it is improbable that the rig will be seen in the front window.
Speaking for the JAA procedure, the MAPt could be closer to the rig if the FAP, OIP and MAPt could be established by a more accurate method than just the RADAR (differential GPS for example). This would remove some of the tracking and ranging errors which now are accounted for.
It might be interesting to examine the Canadian operator's procedure to establish how a closer MAPt is achieved.
Interesting thread; most ARAs (at least the later ones) apply an offset at some point in the approach sequence.
As AirJockey has said, a procedure written to the JAR-OPS (ICAO PansOps based) criteria has an Offset Initiation Point at 1.5 nm - at which point a 10 degree heading change is made which, if continued beyond the MAPt (not permitted by the way), would pass the rig at a mean distance of 300m - 400m. The choice of the MAPt of 0.75 nm was based (very simply) on an aggregation of the position error, RADAR (tracking and ranging) errors, pilot reaction and rate of turn (at the MAPt) to give a probability of collision with the rig at less than or equal to the ICAO Risk Model acceptable target. At the MAPt, the pilot has to fly a rate one turning missed approach of at least 30 degrees into a Missed Approach Arc (identified on RADAR by 5 nm from the target).
An Offshore Standard Approach Procedure (OSAP) based upon the FAA AC 90-80B would have one of two type of approaches: the delta 30 has an OIP of 30 degrees initiated at a distance from the rig of 1.1 nm - the resulting track will take the helicopter to the MAP at a tangent of a circle with a radius of 0.6 nm from the rig; the second method requires the pilot to establish - by 2 nm from the rig - a parallel offset track which passes the rig by 0.5 nm - the MAP is set at 0.7 from the rig.
Each of these methods - JAA and FAA - has its merits but both have defined missed approach procedures established to avoid collision with the rig by a safe margin.
Subjectively, it could be observed that the JAA procedure appears to be optimized for rig acquisition at the MAPt as the rig should be seen on the RADAR, and in the front window, at that point; the OSAP procedure appears to be optimized for missed approach as, at the MAP, it is improbable that the rig will be seen in the front window.
Speaking for the JAA procedure, the MAPt could be closer to the rig if the FAP, OIP and MAPt could be established by a more accurate method than just the RADAR (differential GPS for example). This would remove some of the tracking and ranging errors which now are accounted for.
It might be interesting to examine the Canadian operator's procedure to establish how a closer MAPt is achieved.
Thread Starter
Yea, its much the same, while the FAF is at 3 miles and you require 1/4 vis reported to continue, there is also a ten degree offset at 1.5 nm, only we take it to 1/2 mile before initiating the missed.
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Good day Blades,
Flying just a couple hundreds miles east of Bladestrike on the Grand Banks and would say that our Hard IFR time would be very close to his. Maybe the only exemption would be that we do quite a bit of NIGHT which is Hard IFR out here. This time of year with the short days we regularly have on or two ships in the air every night.
Limits.......... pretty much as with Bladesrtikes. 50' above helideck and 1/2 as the MAP. We do have the added convience of a powerful FMS and excellent radar (o.1 scale) which is great in the goo and for trip mamagement.
Our onshore approachs are lower then normal though, 600RVR 100' DH (take off and landing) which we use quite a bit believe it nor not. Well statistics say St. Johns NL is the foggest city in the world so......hey, some days ya need it.
Couple the fog with the regular 60 plus knots of wind and everyday is "hard" IFR
Icing.............thank goodness for heated blades, nuff said.
Flying just a couple hundreds miles east of Bladestrike on the Grand Banks and would say that our Hard IFR time would be very close to his. Maybe the only exemption would be that we do quite a bit of NIGHT which is Hard IFR out here. This time of year with the short days we regularly have on or two ships in the air every night.
Limits.......... pretty much as with Bladesrtikes. 50' above helideck and 1/2 as the MAP. We do have the added convience of a powerful FMS and excellent radar (o.1 scale) which is great in the goo and for trip mamagement.
Our onshore approachs are lower then normal though, 600RVR 100' DH (take off and landing) which we use quite a bit believe it nor not. Well statistics say St. Johns NL is the foggest city in the world so......hey, some days ya need it.
Couple the fog with the regular 60 plus knots of wind and everyday is "hard" IFR
Icing.............thank goodness for heated blades, nuff said.
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Yup, alot......low vis t/o minima 150 meters......****** to find t/o alternate when the fog hangs around.........doesn't get to thick usually, so burn off is quick.....other times....weeks !
My spot in the woods RVR hangs around 6-900......they placed the airport in a swamp area...go figure !!
My spot in the woods RVR hangs around 6-900......they placed the airport in a swamp area...go figure !!
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I would not say it goes below 1200 often, but there are days when the 61 can not go. They do not have the equipment required for the 600 RVR landing. Guessing maybe couple times a month when we use the lower limits for approach, certainly is a nice option rather then going to the alternate.
600 feet certainly is not alot of vis though, probably the most difficult is at night in heavy snow with a snow covered runway...........gets a little tricky at the bottom
600 feet certainly is not alot of vis though, probably the most difficult is at night in heavy snow with a snow covered runway...........gets a little tricky at the bottom
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Hey Bladestrike,
I know that I am going to catch sh%t for this one but what is so hard (IFR) about flying day in and day out to the same rig(s) and doing the same non-precision approach to minimums with a GPS or NDB
If you see the rig you land and if you don't like what you see you come home.
I am assuming of course that you have planned you flight properly (wx and alternate) and are carrying the required fuel. ATC is usually a non issue for you guys. Of course if you put yourself in icing conditions with an uncertified bird then YOU made it hard.
The rest is just a video game and for a young fellow like yourself I am sure it is a piece of cake.
Take care and say hi to the fellows out east for me.
Cheers
I know that I am going to catch sh%t for this one but what is so hard (IFR) about flying day in and day out to the same rig(s) and doing the same non-precision approach to minimums with a GPS or NDB
If you see the rig you land and if you don't like what you see you come home.
I am assuming of course that you have planned you flight properly (wx and alternate) and are carrying the required fuel. ATC is usually a non issue for you guys. Of course if you put yourself in icing conditions with an uncertified bird then YOU made it hard.
The rest is just a video game and for a young fellow like yourself I am sure it is a piece of cake.
Take care and say hi to the fellows out east for me.
Cheers
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XNR
Staying awake would have to be the hardest part..........yawn
But seriously, worked just about ever facet off the industry and would say that this is probably one of the ........hmmm, was going to say easiest but that is not the right word.
The way that this differs from just about ever other job that I have done is that 99% of anything you can do is published somewhere in one of the trillion books we have at hand. You fly specific altitudes for specific time periods. You must both agree on the proper procedure and how it will be carried out. If it ain't written somewhere you can not do it.........NO SOP, NO WAY!!!!!
Now show me a SOP for rippin drills, towing bird or loggin.
I think the SOP would read, go as fast as you possible can while doing the least damage to you and machine
Staying awake would have to be the hardest part..........yawn
But seriously, worked just about ever facet off the industry and would say that this is probably one of the ........hmmm, was going to say easiest but that is not the right word.
The way that this differs from just about ever other job that I have done is that 99% of anything you can do is published somewhere in one of the trillion books we have at hand. You fly specific altitudes for specific time periods. You must both agree on the proper procedure and how it will be carried out. If it ain't written somewhere you can not do it.........NO SOP, NO WAY!!!!!
Now show me a SOP for rippin drills, towing bird or loggin.
I think the SOP would read, go as fast as you possible can while doing the least damage to you and machine