As per layinlow's post #206
Corrected developing info from rep now explains that only #4 had failed followed by #1. If details to be confidential then ok.
At any rate - high terrain multiple engine failure on a dark night, very soon after Vr.

With all due respect to the incidents mentioned by Kalitta aircraft, here is the
official NTSB reports for all incidents listed for Kalitta, including the two
DC8 problems discussed....
Aviation Query Results Page

Interesting to note, the aircraft involved in the crash in Colombia was
also previously involved in an incident on take off from Sapporo Japan.

I am not bashing anybody or pro or con Kalitta, just simply providing official
NTSB (National Transportation Safety Board) data as on file.

Why is that interesting or relevant? Same airframe, but same engine? You don't know. The Sapporo event was an uneventful handling of a fuel leak and fire warning, as reported in the link you provided. It has some relevance here exactly how?

The report prior to that involved an inflight engine separation, which has already been discussed here after being introduced by the angry black man, I believe. The engine was overhauled by United Airlines, and the high pressure turbine that failed was obtained from Tradewinds. Tradewinds in turn got it from Aeroturbine, who got it from General Electric Commercial Aviaton Services, who obtained it from Polar Air Cargo. It was this high pressure turbine that was installed on the engine that separated, and it was this high pressure turbine that failed. An isolated incident which has no bearing here, and provides no useful information to the current situation. It's been previously discussed, serves no purpose here, so why introduce it?

Events prior to that time in the link you cited apply to American International Airways, a company owned by Kalitta but sold and merged into Kittyhawk...irrelevant to current events, and therefore shouldn't be considered in the present discussions.

SNS3Guppy,

WHoa and slow down. I mentioned that I am neither pro or con Kalitta
and not ruffling any feathers. I just provided an official link to topics
previously discussed in this thread so that people could see the official
cause, not personal opinions of these incidents. People are free to draw
there own conclusions. I am not forcing them to think one way or another.

As far as the incident in Japan involving the same aircraft that recently
crashed. There is probably no corelation at all, I and repeat I thought it
was interesting that the same aircraft had been involved in an incident
previously that required a report to be filed with the NTSB.

Yes there is a 10 year period between incidents, but no matter what the
company name, Kalitta Flying Services, AIA, Kalitta Air etc they are in
fact owned by the same person! In this day and age, for a fleet as
large as they own, 10years without an incident is a tribute to their
practices.

Now in reference to the above stated post that, first #4, then #1, #2
and #3 (partially) failed with #4 restarted before the landing would that
not suggest some type of contamination, be it fuel, birds, or volcanic
ash or whatever. Looks to me the crew did a remarkable job putting it
down where they did with minimum amount of ground catastrophy prevented.
Condolences to the deceased included.

Bonger;
 

If any of us can offer assistance in any way please don't hesitate to ask. Please send me a PM if anythingg is required. I spend a lot of time in Ypsilanti.

Prayers and well wishes for all

Billy

They are now saying that only the outboard engines had failed (in succession), and just after VR.

If so, could a departure (high thrust demand) with the outboard fuel boost pumps mistakenly placed / left in the "off" position also cause this? . . . I know of like example bonehead configuration mistakes that have inadvertently occurred at times before, but then at a lower, more normal field elevation (better fuel head pressure) and with no results. . . . but engine starvation if departing from a higher elavation runway (8600ft)?

Outboard boost pumps off / inboard boost pumps on / crossfeeds open, is a standard configuration that is commonly used during / after climb (for keeping fuel weight in the wingtips until it's usage is required).

No suggestions . . . just academically exploring diverse ideas as to a double outboard failure.

Hey Bonger

Did you read the heading, it was directed to Kalitta Crewmembers not every public aviation board. Why don't you include your name as well right below the Pilots Rep's name!

Very unprofessional!

Bonger, Thank you for the update.

Our prayers and well wishes to each and everyone involved. And lets not forget the families. Often, time the families need as much or more support than the crew members.

We now have enough information.

Lets wait until the groups do their professional work and then comment.

Calm down WhalePFE. It was proably "authorised" so as to stop all the wild speculation. All names were removed. No harm done. At least we now have the facts as far as they are known at this stage. The rest will come later.

They would havve been on the modified tank-to-engine procedure. All boost pumps on and 1 & 4 crossfeeds open. The low pressure lights would have been quite obvious to the capt. and fe if the pumps were off.

Not only that, but the engine pumps will feed the engines up to about FL 280 for an un-modified 747 classic, and up to FL 350 with some Boeing mod they cooked up years ago.

(Not sure if the above is true on take-off power, but at least in cruise that is the story)

Wonder how much those guys could see that early in the morning?

Every time I have take off with flowers from Bogota it has been pitch black and I sure as hell would not be able to pick out a field to "land" in.

Had a few compressor stalls just after t/o from Bogota in the dark, and they scared the crap out of me, can't imagine the joy of loosing 2 engines just after t/o between those hills.

Hat off to the crew, hell of a job....

Report from Union, and Crew
 

Got this today, turns out to be a two engine failure, not three. Still, a miracle they survived.


Dear Fellow Kalitta Air Crewmembers from your Captain Representative:

When I accepted the position of Captains representative, I did so
because I felt the need to help. I never imagined that "helping"
would included visiting fellow crewmembers in the hospital, but that
is what myself and Bill Gonzales and Dan Gardner, along with Gene
Sowell have been doing here in Bogota, Columbia for the last few
days. We have been here representing the Union, your Union, and doing
whatever is needed for the guys, including helping them dress. I can
tell you first hand that these guys went through hell and have the
bruises to show for it! This crew, all of them, did everything
possible in the face of extreme adversity.

What I can tell you now, I will as follows; The operating crew was
Bryant Beebe as Capt., Ivan Danka as F/O, Joe Kendall as F/E. Steve
Szynkowski was sitting in the aft observers seat. The two loadmaster,
Mo & Jimmy were sitting on the left and Frank Holly & Richard Dunlap
were on the right. Everything, life, was normal until just after
rotation. It was then, as described in all accounts, the number four
engine failed. Immediately, as briefed and as set up on the FMS Fix
page, the crew proceeded with the "special engine out procedure".
However before any checklist could be accomplished or turns back to
the airport, it appears that number one engine failed. It was then
that years of experience demonstrated by cool and matter of fact
thinking lead them to the "dark spot" on the ground. Everyone knew
what was happening, that they would soon be landing "off airport"
because they just didn't have the thrust to get them back. All they
could do was not stall the airplane and try and hit wings level in
the shallowest descent possible and that is what happened. The impact
and the seconds following were described as surreal. When things came
to a stop reality set in and now all that mattered was getting out
and getting the injured to the hospital. As you can imagine
everything was in a disarray. The ceiling was now the floor, the "L"
windows were now the "R" windows and there was no discernible way
out. Frank Holly used a fire extinguisher and the the crash ax after
it was located, to bust out the L1 window. Steve, Joe and Bryant were
removed via a backboard and the others exited on their on and were
all taken to the hospital. Amazingly, Mo & Jimmy were basically
unhurt while Frank had slight injuries and Richard was pinned in his
seat until the rescue workers were able to free him. Richard suffers
from large and numerous bruises, a fractured lumbar and tail bone.
Bryant initially walked on his own to the back to check on everyone
else after releasing himself from his seat upside down but soon
discovered that he had moderate back injuries and is now physically
recovering as expected, but wearing a back brace. Ivan broke his nose
again and was readmitted to the hospital only to discover that he has
a cracked lumbar and is in a back brace. The nurses say, in Spanish,
he looks like a Panda Bear and I told them to stay away from Bears.
Steve severely injured his back/spine. He is very alert but in pain
and will be facing a long recovery period in which his mobility is in
question. I was able to spend over 30 minutes alone with him and
assured him that if he needed his house in Atlanta modified so he can
get around that WE would see to it. Now Joe. Joe was injured the
worst and was found out of his seat lying on the ceiling, conscience.
He was given the portable O2 mask and First Aid rendered. Joe had
surgery as previously reported and is in a induced coma to aid in his
healing. We all know Joe as a strong, tough, stubborn guy and with
OUR PRAYERS and the excellent care he is receiving he will recover.
The next 48 hours will tell a lot and hopefully all can be
transported back to the USA soon as to ease the burden on their
families, who are all here now.

Guys, all I can say is PLEASE PRAY for Joe, Steve, Bryant, Ivan,
Richard, Frank, Mo and Jimmy. Pray for their physical well being as
well as their emotional well being. What they experienced, I wish on
no one. There is guilt over the lives lost on the ground and what
effect this will have on OUR company. When able I will get addresses
for all so you can express your feelings to them. Also don't forget
that Bob, Steve and Luis from 704 went through similar feelings and a
word of encouragement to all of them would be nice.

Remember.... .FLY SAFE, STAY STRONG and DEMONSTRATE your
PROFESSIONALISM to ALL!


Fraternally,

Mack McCurry

Rob rilly: that post is meant for the private consumption of the fellow crewmembers and friends of those involved not meant to be posted on a public forum.

Thanks' TowerDog . . . . .However to ExRAFboy, - that is all well and good info, but the hypothetical question of post #221 was - with respective boost pumps on "off" (and all crossfeeds otherwise normal for t/o), will the outboard engines run a 8,600ft altitude t/o roll and departure?

I know that they will when from sea level, because years ago (although it was daylight), bonehead me did just that!

The fuel pressure lights would glow, but they would glow dim (if dim selected) and if everyone had their eyes up front, they could be missed.

L-38,

JMHO's here; your hypothetical question "would they keep running at take-off power is problematical at best.

I had a classmate who was let go because he believed the ground school teaching that "suction" fuel at climb power would work with boost pumps off and the crossfeed closed. He was arguing with the mechanic on the jump seat about whether or not it would keep running, so he decided to show him by killing the boost pumps and closing the crossfeed (i.e. isolating the engine from a pressure fuel source.)

The engine quit before under something like FL180 so: he lost that argument.

Very interesting pacplyer . . . a lot can be learned from this.

I am also curious as to if the FE's seat had failed during the extreme stresses of that crash landing. Our FE would have been locked front and center with the pilots, yet he is reported to have suffered the most.

Also, I have always wondered on how useless a crash ax would be if needed. I was absolutely amazed at our crew's success of picking through the thickly laminated L1 windscreen (note the pictured failed attempt on the L-2).

. .While attending a ground school at Flying Tigers many years ago, I recall that they had an old DC-8 windscreen set on wooden blocks behind the mx hanger. Anyone with their nose out of joint was welcomed to have a go at it with it's accompanied sledge hammer. . . .During many years of abuse, that windscreen was proven to be most indestructible.

Whatever works, but I would suspect that an easier go would be to use the ax on the aircraft's interior skin like a can opener. I have always wanted to try that, however I have absolutely no clue as to it's difficulty!

Not if he was still trying to get those engines running on the panel.....

Another thought: Is the fuel vender used by multiple airlines? Did they continue fueling aircraft after this happened?
We used to do "fuel sampling" on taxi out overseas; we would configure the fuel panel to first sample the center tank and then sample each main tank before take off. This took several minutes and was hard to do on a short taxi.

Yes I agree, that O2 mystery is solved. I too thought that maybe the crashaxe (which security doesn't believe we have when you tell em about it after they take away your nail clippers) was an antiquated holdover from the prop days but I guess I was wrong. A Long time ago a (Southern Airlines?) DC-9 F/O slid off the runway forgetting to power the rudder and brakes IIRC, forgot to depressurize the cabin (open the outflow valves) for the evac, nobody could get out.... so he took the crashaxe and tried to evac by taking a herculean swing at one of the windscreens.

It bounced and nailed him right in the forehead. :ooh: That's were I lost faith in some of the on board survival equipment...

It was worse than that... the way I heard it, they lost a generator, disconnected the wrong CSD, then made a battery-only approach in which they spotted the wrong runway, which was quite a bit too short.....

ExRAFboy . . .
 

No need to get emotionally terrorized. The crew members' names were published in the Miami Herald July 8TH. See post #83 of this Thread. :ooh:

How about the author of the letter? His name was not removed either. Ask him how many phone calls he has been getting! Not good!!!!

Where are the moderators?

That very same letter is posted on every other aviation forum, and I have received it in my personal email twice already, it's in wide circulation, not just on PPrune.

Was Bryant B. at ASA back in the early nineties?

ExRAF, Junk !

Better call half the Newspapers in the US and tell them your complaints. Names are out there everywhere. 4 of them are longtime friends of mine.

I've been following this thread and don't have a dog in this fight...But in this day, with emails and internet, if anything is sent out I presume it would become public very quickly.

ExRAF,
All the names were in several Florida papers....................I also recieved atleast 10 e-mails with them. THANK GOD I did read the paper and found out 4 of the 8 are friends of mine. Now, back under your rock please....

I can imagine because that interoffice memo was posted here, and because the author of that memo is getting deluged by calls, that will be the last written update they give to their employees. Nice going Skippy.

WindSuck,

I guess you cant read ! IT'S all over the internet !!!! Do you need to be hand fed ??

My, my, aren't we upset about something? Hmm?

It looks like it started here, everywhere I've seen it they state they got from here. If you work for Kalitta, you better wish they don't check on who leaked it first to the web forums. Yourrrr in trouble now! :)

Crew update
 

Can any one post whats really important here and provide any information on how the crew is doing. All I have heard is that there was a lot of spine and head trauma. Does anyone know where we might be able to send the families our best wishes?

Out here in the dark.:ugh:

Everyone is back in the states, either home or in a hospital close to home. If the crew/famlies give the ok, we'll get something posted so as to contact them. I am sure the guys would appreciate some encouraging words.

Thanks for the information.

rob rilley:

Adult 101: Here is the deal. Don’t name names. Give a synopsis, even link to the source article. What most of us are looking for is information, not personal suffering. There is a fine line, but a pretty clear one.

Aviation Safety
 

I just want to digress and comment.

Despite all our differences, I think it's important to realize that all posters here are an important component of Aviation Safety. Problems don't get fixed when doing "business as usual." Accidents are multi-faceted and complex and deserve to be examined from all angles even if certain lines of questioning, postings and assumptions turn out to be dead ends. Why hopefully, even the press can read and learn something here and realize that things are not as simple as they appear on the surface and that in reality, incredible, brave and professional individuals report for duty under difficult circumstances and in most cases ensure perfect safety (especially as when you consider the deaths per seat mile of all alternative modes of transport) and should be all commended as heros to the profession.

I myself, am proud to have been a small part of the development of today's testament to aviation safety, and marvel at the resourcefulness of todays professionals and companies who operate in much more adverse conditions than we faced in my day. Godspeed Connie Kalitta, Guppy, ExRAFboy, robriley, walepfe and others and the crews of the ill fated accidents.

It's been a real pleasure to converse with you Gentlemen, and I must say, that I have learned a great deal from this thread. My hat is off to the moderators for permitting such a controversial and informative thread.

pacific plyer - over and out

Very well said - and I second the motion!

Yes, it is all over the internet. Thanks to folks like you. Highly unprofessional. Nice going.

Aviation Safety
 

It is cool to be able to BS back and forth on these websites, because nobody knows who you are and you have a fancy screen name and all. It's cool to speculate and get to be an expert on a certain subject, but the problem, like with this accident, is when sensitive information, pictures, etc. gets leaked. It pisses the NTSB off and they don't have to let other intrested parties be a "party" to the investigation. The NTSB are very qualified and have the expertise and resources to do an investigation and then they publish their findings so everyone can learn from it. That is the whole mechanics behind the NTSB. It is unfortunate that we have some among our own ranks that have jeopardized are ability to be a "party" to another investigation. God willing, it won't be an issue. But, maybe some others should take note, if you find yourself in a similar situation. I hope not!

WhalePFE

Five of the eight thanked you for posting the union letter on a public board? I don't believe that...and even the author of that letter has been very unhappy with it's posting...but you're justifying your stupidity and unprofessional behavior by stating that others have thanked you for doing the wrong thing?

You must be proud.

Interesting. Now it's five a few days ago it was four as your longtime friends. Soon enough they'll all be your drinking buddies. And it still won't justify what you did. Even if they all kiss your feet and say thanks. By the by...none of them authored that letter, did they?