And I just now noticed that reverser #1 (you can read it) is sprung way up in the air above the seat cushion. That's what happens when the reverser sleeve leaves, I found out one dark night out of JFK. So: three knobs in the foreground say "1" on them (at thrust lever Idle postition) and one knob says "2" on it (in the background behind the mike cord against the engine instruments.) Not drawing any conclusions, and I may be wrong about the trim motion from 18 years ago.

Somebody go flying and tell me how they rotate.

These are all just clues for us.

pac

(and I'd like to know what happens during an engine separation, never had one; do the cables just shear or do they move the throttles? What happened to the pilot that lost one over Michigan? Maybe someone can ask him?)

The start levers do appear to be in the cut off position, but photos can be deceiving. Also for those of you non-74 drivers, the multiple engine failure checklist (memory items) include moving the start levers to cut-off then back to idle to attempt restart.

Good point RAF,

I agree that cockpit control position observation is not definitive by any means; it is however part of all good early accident investigation and hopefully will be noted by the investigators. Your point is good that floor rigging might have been compromised below the upper deck control cable runs.

exRAFboy,

I agree with this very good point of yours as well. We don't know the source or time that this photo was taken, and rescuers could have moved something. The ship however is almost upside down. The control pedestal would effectively have been on the ceiling for egress rescue.

Agree we should wait for official info and make no conclusions from these photos.

Well done RAF.

Mr Paul
 

Don't those fuel switches have to be "selected" i.e. moved in and out of detents to the on or off position?

pacific plyer & ExRAFboy,

I stand corrected. Having compared the Kallita F/D pic with an intact one (found here) it gets quite apparent your observations re start levers and thrust levers. Excellent marks on eyesight for you both :ok:

GD&L

pacplyer
From testimony of a fellow crewman who was aboard the Evergreen incident (ANC), the thrust lever will violently slam back to it's stops during an engine separation. Pulled there through the attached cable motion of the falling engine.

Re. post #99 by SNS3Guppy, I feel sorry that I have to ignore it, for one basic reason:I did not say that "it's a company maintanence problem". What I did say is "Any idea what is happening here, two engines (and their corresponding aircraft) with the same operator in such a short term?"In my post #98 I was referring to in-flight shutdowns (IFSD), and was wondering if something could make the statistics work against the operator, not blaming maintenance, or operations, or anything else. Really, I was not expecting SNS3guppy dressed as if he were angryblackman to answer me.

Does anybody else notice a lack of "obvious" fire damage? I don't see much in the way of scorched grass or as much burnt wreckage as you might expect. Is anyone able to make a educated guess at the fuel load at the time of the incident? Obviously there is evidence of small fires in places. I agree the engines don't appear to have much of the "rotary" damage you would expect if they were at full power as the went in.

Regardless, a major incident, amazing the crew were able to escape, and with a mercifully small loss of life on the ground. One would have to presume the crew did their best to choose an empty spot as best they could, I suspect t could have been alot worse, as I can see more buildings in the background of some of the other shots. :D

From the photos

Th debris field may be located at

4" 42' 00" 77 N, 74" 11' 52" W on a heading parallel with the major highway

What do others think?

lomapaseo . . . didn't the local media say that it was closer to the township of Madrid, 16KM [10mi] west of BOG which is beside La Pincha [also an airstrip there]; if you zero in and click on the "blue dot" [photo enhanced version] at approx 4-43-40N and 74-15-44W you'll see an aerial photo of the town and surrounding area, . . . assuming that you have latest version of Google Earth.

Thanks for the Google refs. From the photo, not the nicest terrain in the world (from an off field landing point of view anyway)! Then again is there ever a nice off field landing site when your AC is a 747?

willit run, thanks for sharing these pics. it's amazing that the entire crew
survived this horrible crash.
my thoughts and prayers to all involved.

fr8d27

Lomapaseo - After reviewing several local newspaper and tv reports, I put it about 6 to 7 km WNW of your estimate, on the Casa Blanca farm (just outside of Madrid - Google Maps has it as La Pincha) between highway 50 and the Hacienda .

The Casa Blanca Hacienda is at 4º43'19.25"N, 74º15'42.91"W

A cab driver eyewitness was fueling at a petrol station and saw the power lines along the highway spark as they were hit just before the plane made contact with the ground. He stated he ran towards the hill (SW) as the plane broke up and caught fire. Enough flames to light up almost the entire 600 hectare farm. Upon reaching the cockpit, he and other farm workers unable to enter through window and desperately tried to break a larger window. They saw crew wearing oxygen masks.

I place the petrol station at 4°43'39.19"N, 74°15'21.29"W

First call to emergency responders received at 04:58. Among first responders were the firefighters of the nearby Maintenance Air Command of the Colombian Air Force, including a female member who was able to enter the open window to initiate an evacuation - one that took 1.5 hours total.

Front section of aircraft ended up 50m beyond and to the East of the rest of the wreckage.

Flight originated in Brasil with a load that included mobile phones, fabric, refrigerator parts and a VW. Stopped in Bogota to pick up the flowers and upload fuel.

Latest news reports are heralding the expertise of the crew for avoiding what could have been a catastrophic loss of life (Madrid has 70.000 residents).

Insert statement of choice regarding reliability of eyewitness & news reports.

It's hard to tell engine damage looking from the front. The n1 can look undamaged from the front even though an n2 shaft might have failed behind it, giving an entirely different appearance looking from the aft of the engine.

Irrespective of the investigation, which could take long time to complete, the commercial iplications of losing two aircraft in as many months could be devastating to Kalitta. Current or future contracts can be termintated as customers (carriers using them under ACMI and brokers) fear their names may be associated with an aircraft accident.

This industry is all about reputation. Whilst the actual cause may have nothing to do with MX or crew actions most customers cannot await the outcome of the offical investigation and will take their business elsewhere in an effort to afeguard their interests. Not how it should be but it is how it is. Even if in 18months time when the investigators present their findings and state that the crew couldn't have done a more perfect job for now it is the Kalitta logo lying on it side in Bogata or broken up in BRU and this is what the customer sees and basis his decision on.

During the flare, just prior to touchdown, the operating engines would normally be at idle thrust. You wouldn't be crash landing with intentional high thrust setting and a speed faster than necessary. :ooh:

Is there a chance of the crew having shut down the engines right before they touched ground (assuming the fuel levers weren't touched after the accident) ?

Not likely as you wouldn't have any landing lights. There are also hydraulic power issues [flight controls] when engines are idling below 160kts.

Having flown flowers out of Bogota over a hundred times in the Classic I am not surprised to see on crash after take-off like this one.

Everything is balls to the walls and every limit is reached and sometimes exceeded, all of that at high elevation and at night when the crews are dog-tired and should be in bed.

The engine out procedure is confusing at best, and don't work too good as some of the beacons needed to fly the procedure are out of service or too weak to pick up.

Even with 4 engines turning we had a terrain warning during clean-up after a BOG departure.

A company I worked for lost a 747-200 in MDE as the Nr. 1 engine exploded right at V1 and the crew did not get the airplane stopped.

YouTube - Tradewinds Boeing 747 Rejected Takeoff Crash

Turns out Kallitta had overhauled the engines we used on the classics.
Perhaps there is a trend here, Brussels and all...?

So when is Kalitta going to start passenger operations?

I am very surprised at the philosophical tone of this thread. Imagine the fuss if 800 people had been written off in these two crashes? As it is two innocents were killed in their sleep, when one of these flying scrapyards crashed.

Just look at the build dates of most of his fleet? Unbelievable that "bottom feeders" like Kalitta, Evergreen, MK and others are so poorly regulated. Do you remember the Evergreen 747 which lost power over London and was directed over huge population centres to Heathrow? Scandalous irresponsible judgements by ATC and the pilots of that crippled jet.

Clearly aircraft that are over 30 years old cannot put up with the stresses of constant maximum performance operations. Hopefully the current fuel prices will see them squeezed out of business for everyone's sake.

So Poof, how would you regulate these bread and butter players to other than the World standards with which they are subjected to now? . . . You will require considerably more education on the subject to answer intelligently, and if / when this intelligence is acquired, you will then be surprised at your conclusion.
- - - -
With regards to a double hull loss, will Kalitta's AMC contracts automatically be terminated / in jeopardy? If so, that would be tragic.

Hmm, did not know that.
I thought the SP was a super long-haul version with 18 hours fuel...?

I flew -200s in and out of Quito many times since 2005. Usually approached at night @ max -landing weight..No problems, but one has to be gentle on the brakes, otherwise they heat up and blow tires...Not good.

Many thanks for the responses that identified the apparant debris field location.

Somebody was nice enough to send me an unedited off air video clip confirming the location. See image below

http://fromtheflightdeck.com/MEL/Location.jpg

The video clip had lots of additional information in the naration unfortunately I don't have language skills to interpret.

It does appear that the aircraft struck the house at the beginning of the debris field.

I wonder if the locals can add any more information that has been released by the authorities rleative to ATC transmissions or crew statements.

If you can't fly, land as best you can.
 

From the visuals, I suggest the crew did their best to get the airframe, the cargo and themselves out of flight as best they could. These latest images suggest they worked hard on this task.

d

3rd Hull loss?
 

Recently spoke to a Kalitta crew and was told of a third hull loss while in maintenance. Something about a crane holding the empennage and when maintenance personnel could not remove the last bolt (as it was binding) decided to cut the bolt which caused the main body to separate and the crane to topple over onto the aircraft causing extensive damage to the aircraft, beyond economic repair.
Again, this was told to me by a Kalitta crew.
Regards,
bpp

What do you know about their regulation, or lack thereof? They are FAA Part 121 carriers just like Delta and United, and are subject to the very same regulations!

What does the build date and being poorly regulated have to do with losing power over London? Do you remember the 777 that lost ALL power over London?

Apartheid-induced airspace restrictions resulted in some sales as well, as I recall....

Hairy situation
 

I've got to tell you....

Tower Dog, that sounds like one of the most difficult segments in which to have to operate. Second leg of the night.... Correct me if I'm wrong: If it's a heavy departure (say company wants to tanker some fuel) you've gotta be considering a bleeds-off T/O which means taking off unpressurized if the APU is weak or inop, right?: cleaning up at over 10,000 feet? (ICAO noise abatement? 3K AGL above?) , which.... does that mean masks on?

Nothing worse than trying to do complicated procedures in the dark with oxy masks on, imho. Add an engine fire warning and now you have to ditch the SID and switch to the eng out procedure in mountains when all you can hear is people breathing on speaker, mic's squealing, ADF's not pointing right..... Ugh.

The next thing you know, the memory procedures are completed for fire and the machine starts going downhill at full power on the remaining three. No way below 250kts to bring the start lever/switch back up and have it relight........ so the S/O would reach up and try to open the start valve on the one he just shut down.... did he remember to re-open some bleeds back there so he can do a crossbleed start and get that motor turning again? Did he remember to reset the overhead fire switch/handle?

Sounds worse than a nightmare from the "oh-dark-thirty" sim session. :sad:

The above is all just Hypothetical from sim experiences and in no way is meant to imply that's what happened in Bogota. But here, let me ding the objection call button for you.....

Machaca;
Agree. I think the lake to the east of the crash-site may settle it, but this too, is a guess...:


http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...Site_label.png



http://i277.photobucket.com/albums/k...te10xlabel.png

NOT trying to be a tabloid journalist here, but it certainly looks, as Daikilo, BigHitDH and lomopaseo say, as if the crew did their very best to place the crash in the least damaging place. As it was dark, I do not know how they managed it so well, but those pictures certainly suggest it and all praise to the pilots for that.

Any news on the injured and recovery? The pics of the nose/cockpit look pretty awful.

exRAF,

Yes I remember that now... Thanks RAF; was thinking of another machine. :ok:

Can you look in your book sometime and tell me if there is a high altitude t/o procedure and charts for t/o with engine Bleeds Off? One of these machines I used to fly we did that.....

If you can find it, I'll do the next engine readings for you. Promise :E


break, break


PJ2,

Whoops, had it upside down there, PJ2 I'll buy that location if you'll put your red arrow on the other side of the lake and spin it 180 degrees. I believe maybe he clipped the trees and wires by the dam.

What do you think?

pac

PJ2 - very close, but wrong direction:

http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4...emaphw6.th.jpg

They clipped power lines crossing the highway and it appears from Lomapaseo's vidcaps they collected trees along the stream at the corner of the smaller "bent" pond. The berm 2/3 ways down the impact path likely caused the nose section crush and separation.

Machaca,

you beat me to it. It's close to the gas station coordinates and shows the damp earthen berm (looks like a dry flood pond) that put all that dirt and grass in the fan section perhaps causing the sudden stop of the N1 disc that is so mysterious.

They did a helll of a job keeping control with an outboard engine out if that is the case. :D

TwoOneFour:
On my Google-Earth the coordinates for the latest picture posted by Machaca are 4.43'24, 74.15'11 at the building structure the aircraft perceivably hit.


Green-dot

Comparing Iomapaseo's images of the debris field in post #153 with Machaca's Google Earth image, that lake must have had quite some alterations since the Google Earth picture was taken? A large part of the lake (parallel to the debris field) is similar but it now "bends" in the opposite direction and covers considerably less area when viewing the images in post #153.


Green-dot

Subtle changes are common with Googleearth as some of the sat shots are old. But try rotating it upside down. Then approach over the damn.

Jump across the lake. It looks like a green swampy field; sat shot probably taken when it had tall green grass growth.

better?

Thanks Machaca - the "dry" beds look different but the overall shape is there as are the other geographical cues - cheers.