Monarch 250 descent
Do you guys do not understand when you fly to Malaga with a speed of 250 knots in the descent with 5 planes following you that you cause trouble for this 5 planes and the atc controller?
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Well babe, the ATC is the controlling authority, and they can ask for any speed that suits their strategic planning. According to the ATIS they are always "training on the job", so they will be aware of this.
The reason for descending at 250 kts is because that is the "econ" descent speed for most of the aircraft. Because the price of fuel has risen so much in recent months, it is now considered very important that fuel saving protocols are adhered to whenever possible. You will find this is happening in more and more airlines, and is likely to affect you soon as well. Descending at 250 kts shouldn't cause any trouble to following aircraft unless they are descending faster ? If it does prove problematic then a request to maintain another speed can always be communicated from ATC. It isn't anyones wish to cause you any personal inconvenience, but we are required to adhere to SOP's in the abscence of any overriding criteria, and our current SOP's require economy speed descents (usually 250kts). It doesn't make any difference whether it is Malaga, Manchester, Mombasa or Marrakech, the descent speed will be the same unless the STAR, Notam, or ATC requires a variation. One example is London where ATC require a standard .78/270kts to the speed limit point, unless otherwise instructed. |
'fraid it'll be the same if you're stuck behind a 'TOMSON' or 'JETSET' too...
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babemagnet, what type do you fly and what cost index do you use?
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I shall now give quiet thanks that I fly in the ahhh, lesser developed parts of the world, where ATC does not especially care if I descend at nearly the barber pole, in order to expedite the process, as in....
EAN4126, can you maintain 350 knots indicated until twenty miles final? Affirmative. How about 200 until five miles final? 210 if you like. Thank you, 4126, I see you are a TriStar, they never give us any problems. No problem...as someone else buys the fuel:} |
VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it.
PS Not in a Tristar:) |
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babemagnet, what type do you fly and what cost index do you use? Reply Probably in the 'Glass' Tower' of ATC. |
I fly 737-800 280 in descent.
250 is way to slow if you ask me. Or we al should do it or nobody. It is not gonna work if you plan for a 280 knot descent and you have to slow down at FL250 already to 250, You will get above your descent path and maybe have to use speedbrake because 1 clown is doing 250! In my example all 5 planes had to slow down and the whole arrival flow was being screwed up and everybody was complaining! I think that again either we all do it or nobody does it untill then fly 280 thats what most airlines do! |
....until then fly 280 thats what most airlines do! |
VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it. oooooo do tell :ok: |
We do fly low cost indices as well, between 11 and 13 on 737 classic and NG. However we are still required by SOPs to change the descent speed to 280kias in the classic and 290 in the NG. Otherwise it would be around 252kias. I don't mind actually, its nice and quiet and nothing really bad can happen.
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I fly 737-800 280 in descent. Must be one neat aircraft if it can change types between descent & other phases of flight!! Who knows, might even become a Porche on the ground... |
PS Not in a Tristar IF it were possible, that would be reserved for yours truly, thank you very much. EOM |
babemagnet,
Im assuming that you fly for an irish based low cost outfit? |
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VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it. oooooo do tell http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Join initials for the break or if you are a 1Sqn mate just crack the nozzles and drop onto the spot!!!!!! |
Superjet
Just for the avoidance of doubt, the low cost Irish carrier operates to ECON speeds and 250 below 100 is our SOP. |
Babemagnet
I would consider reading the Airbus doccuments: Understanding Cost Index and Understanding Fuel Economy then you will have an idea as to why I, and many other diligent operators are operating at lower speeds than previously. Simply overwriting the speeds rather defeats the point of having CIs! p.s. As a Monarch Captian I have never dressed up in a funny wig, strange make-up or carried pretend buckets of water so I'm not quite sure how you can describe me as a Clown! |
I understand what CI means and i understand what fuel economy is but what i do not get is that some airlines change there sops and do screw up al other airlines it simply does not work! if some airlines fly at 250 at fl 250 other airlines fly faster and have to slow down and get above their descent path its very selfish to do this! i am sure a lot of guys do not get this but i do! And i fly 20 sectors a week in a 737 and i get tired by some clowns who fly 250 knots all the time its not gonna work at busy airports so if you hear planes are following you go to at least 280.
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Babemagnet,
do you have ATC there ?? If you do, they will quite happily take responsibilty for providing the arrival sequence taking in to account the speeds of all the arriving aircraft. However, please note that sometimes your perception of the sequence will not be the same as the reality :ok: |
Anyone care to give an indication how much time is saved comming down @ 280 verses 250 from TOD? My hunch is not a lot.....
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Babemagnet
You seem to be somewhat confused? Who has changeg their SOPs, MON haven't for sure. When we have have low CIs the operating speeds are lower therby saving fuel. QED! Your arguement about doing as others do falls down very quickly. If everybody else jumps off a cliff, do I - NO! Also operating efficiently is not selfish just professional! PPrune Radar Absolutely spot on. |
Blindly following the CI (Airbus) is not in Mon's best interest MANAGP, pre-planning,by looking at and adjusting cruise and descent speeds can reduce flt times without incurring any penalty on the fuel used. Their will be occasions when this does not always work, but at any time the cruise reduces .76 and is carried into the descent, you can be sure that it does. As we have been informed 2-3 mins off any flt, without fuel penalty does itself lead to significant savings itself.
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Page 59 of 'Getting to Grips with Fuel Economy' shows that a descent from FL350 in a A320 is 50kg more efficient @240kts than @ 300kt, you correctly state that it will take longer, 2.4 minutes, but the whole point of the exercise is to save fuel.
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2,4 minutes at 8 sectors a day = 17 minutes this can mean i miss my night closure of my home base airport! (and your plane has to go into maintanance sooner because you have more flighttime every day). Just keep flying 250 in the descent then Atc will tell you a lot off time to increase speed to 300 knots anyhow the whole fuel saving is down the drain then.
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Babemagnet,
You obviously feel very strongly about this, however you seem to be in the minority. As you said, either everyone fly 280kts or everyone fly 250kts. Seeing as most of us fly 250kts... SJ777 Slim Shady - I stand corrected :ok: |
In all honesty, i have no issues whatsoever flying slower or faster. But you know what, if the calculations are right then 50kgs a sector x by however many sectors my company flies per year = me keeping my job because my airline stays in business. And those occasions that atc tell me to speed up or slow down, then i'll do it with a smile on my face.
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Babemagnet
You really have no idea do you? |
It doesn't always go to plan - Even for our SAS.
We can all argue about Descent Speeds all day long, But when you are actually There it can all depend on the ATC at the time of day. So all those Fuel Saving Calculations can change as fast as they are planned out. This is obviously taking into account, Runway closed, Holding time, Wind speeds etc. |
a cost index of 9....249 knots in descent ..except when required by STAR (ie Amsterda 280).
1)We save fuel 2)Passenger ears comfy.(big difference in descent rate/cabin pressure change during an idle descent at 280 from 41000 feet rather that 250). 3)still on time 4)No need to look out for birds so much However when flying to ATC regions where radar is not as accurate as in the UK for example, and some aircraft is behind and planning to land at the same place,,,i do advice ATC of our cross over speed so the other dude can replan his descent profile.Or possibly the controller to nicely ask me to get a higher descent speed earlier...which i will gladly do. However the 350 knots to 20 miles may be good for places liken the US Midwest but not in civilized europe. If 411A WANTS TO IMPRESS US, you should get your american fellow to use proper RT , you just break my ears!!!with your #airborne#, passing 234 for 350...... |
And i fly 20 sectors a week in a 737 and i get tired by some clowns who fly 250 knots all the time its not gonna work at busy airports so if you hear planes are following you go to at least 280.
LHR??? :ugh: |
LHR??? standard speeds into the TMA .77/270 now.
It would seem that many people are doing 250kts (ish) so even at busy airports it should work quite well. Going into AGP it doesn't really matter what speed anybody is doing as madrid ATC manage to hand over all the traffic to Seville completely unseparated anyway!! I know following slow aircraft is a little frustrating but it actually makes little difference to your arrival time but quite a big difference to the savings to the Company. factanonverba, I didn't understand a word of what you were trying to say, but I guess that the gist was that you don't necessarily make a fuel saving by descending at a slower speed? I would have to take issue with that. |
Monarch used to do 290 kts as standard in the descent, so there must have been some reason for selecting that speed.
Then they changed it to 290 kts back into the uk (i.e. generally busier airspace) and ECON elsewhere. Now it's ECON everywhere apart from the london TMA where it is 270 kts. This is not a Monarch choice but has been specified. If everybody flew ECON, which takes into account the current cost of fuel, we would probably all be flying compatible speeds anyway. Otherwise you can't complain about someone not flying as fast as you think they should be when no speeds have been specified. I personally don't care what speed I fly. Faster get's me home quicker, slower uses up all my FTL's for the month and I might get to go to work a little less. FIS. |
Revenge is sweet, Babemagnet - now you know what it has been like for us over the last 20 years being stuck behind earlier 737s hogging the airways at 0.74 cruise.
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cruise at 41000 is .77 (economy);-) on my 737...
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Bet it wasn't on an 737 Classic!
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babemagnet,
Its an issue to take up with your own management. Fly your plane, let others fly theirs. |
Calling people who are simply following SOPs, that they didn't write, is a tad harsh.
When fuel is so expensive it falls to all of us to help each other. If you can accept a higher level and free a level for someone below you, take it if it is practical. If you slow down on the STAR, announce it to help the following aircraft. Don't, however, react with anger: maybe an explanation that your SOPs are different would suffice. |
Babemagnet
I'll fly econ speeds throughout the flight (generally 270 kts in decent on the 757) and I will do this unless ATC require me to fly another speed.
If other aircraft are following at a higher speed (like you babe) then ATC will either ask me to speed up or you to slow down - likely scenario is that you will have to slow down - I can't see what the problem is. When you arrive in a TMA where most of the airlines are flying econ decent speeds (i.e. London, Amsterdam etc) then it might be easier if you followed a similar speed profile. BTW the difference in descent speeds that you are concerned about makes about 1 minute max to the flight time. Regards Exeng |
Babe
Why don't you follow your SOPs and we'll all follow ours. We could both then let ATC sort out the separation. That way we all stay happy, employed and keep things safe (and friendly!;)) PP |
The only point i am trying to make is that if we all have different sops (descent speeds) and we all fly in the same sky that on lot of occasions this is not gonna work.
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