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Monarch 250 descent

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Monarch 250 descent

Old 25th Aug 2008, 00:36
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Monarch 250 descent

Do you guys do not understand when you fly to Malaga with a speed of 250 knots in the descent with 5 planes following you that you cause trouble for this 5 planes and the atc controller?

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Old 25th Aug 2008, 08:53
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Well babe, the ATC is the controlling authority, and they can ask for any speed that suits their strategic planning. According to the ATIS they are always "training on the job", so they will be aware of this.

The reason for descending at 250 kts is because that is the "econ" descent speed for most of the aircraft. Because the price of fuel has risen so much in recent months, it is now considered very important that fuel saving protocols are adhered to whenever possible. You will find this is happening in more and more airlines, and is likely to affect you soon as well. Descending at 250 kts shouldn't cause any trouble to following aircraft unless they are descending faster ? If it does prove problematic then a request to maintain another speed can always be communicated from ATC. It isn't anyones wish to cause you any personal inconvenience, but we are required to adhere to SOP's in the abscence of any overriding criteria, and our current SOP's require economy speed descents (usually 250kts).

It doesn't make any difference whether it is Malaga, Manchester, Mombasa or Marrakech, the descent speed will be the same unless the STAR, Notam, or ATC requires a variation. One example is London where ATC require a standard .78/270kts to the speed limit point, unless otherwise instructed.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 09:38
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'fraid it'll be the same if you're stuck behind a 'TOMSON' or 'JETSET' too...
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 10:21
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babemagnet, what type do you fly and what cost index do you use?
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 13:41
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I shall now give quiet thanks that I fly in the ahhh, lesser developed parts of the world, where ATC does not especially care if I descend at nearly the barber pole, in order to expedite the process, as in....

EAN4126, can you maintain 350 knots indicated until twenty miles final?
Affirmative.
How about 200 until five miles final?
210 if you like.
Thank you, 4126, I see you are a TriStar, they never give us any problems.

No problem...as someone else buys the fuel
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 14:27
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VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it.

PS Not in a Tristar
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 16:10
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Quote
babemagnet, what type do you fly and what cost index do you use?

Reply
Probably in the 'Glass' Tower' of ATC.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 18:00
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I fly 737-800 280 in descent.
250 is way to slow if you ask me. Or we al should do it or nobody. It is not gonna work if you plan for a 280 knot descent and you have to slow down at FL250 already to 250, You will get above your descent path and maybe have to use speedbrake because 1 clown is doing 250! In my example all 5 planes had to slow down and the whole arrival flow was being screwed up and everybody was complaining!

I think that again either we all do it or nobody does it untill then fly 280 thats what most airlines do!
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 18:32
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....until then fly 280 thats what most airlines do!
Clearly not the major UK operators...it's SOP for us too, only excemption is London TMA...and now that you know, you can plan accordingly...
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 19:48
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VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it.

oooooo do tell
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 20:29
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We do fly low cost indices as well, between 11 and 13 on 737 classic and NG. However we are still required by SOPs to change the descent speed to 280kias in the classic and 290 in the NG. Otherwise it would be around 252kias. I don't mind actually, its nice and quiet and nothing really bad can happen.
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 20:30
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I fly 737-800 280 in descent.
So what is it when it;s on the deck then, or departing?

Must be one neat aircraft if it can change types between descent & other phases of flight!! Who knows, might even become a Porche on the ground...
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 21:36
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PS Not in a Tristar
Quite clearly...not
IF it were possible, that would be reserved for yours truly, thank you very much.

EOM
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Old 25th Aug 2008, 23:16
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babemagnet,

Im assuming that you fly for an irish based low cost outfit?
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 19:22
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Quote:
VERY cautious, 411A! Use to do 420kts to 2 miles - and land off it.

oooooo do tell


Join initials for the break or if you are a 1Sqn mate just crack the nozzles and drop onto the spot!!!!!!
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 20:05
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Superjet

Just for the avoidance of doubt, the low cost Irish carrier operates to ECON speeds and 250 below 100 is our SOP.
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Old 26th Aug 2008, 23:46
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Babemagnet

I would consider reading the Airbus doccuments:

Understanding Cost Index
and
Understanding Fuel Economy

then you will have an idea as to why I, and many other diligent operators are operating at lower speeds than previously. Simply overwriting the speeds rather defeats the point of having CIs!

p.s. As a Monarch Captian I have never dressed up in a funny wig, strange make-up or carried pretend buckets of water so I'm not quite sure how you can describe me as a Clown!
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 00:12
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I understand what CI means and i understand what fuel economy is but what i do not get is that some airlines change there sops and do screw up al other airlines it simply does not work! if some airlines fly at 250 at fl 250 other airlines fly faster and have to slow down and get above their descent path its very selfish to do this! i am sure a lot of guys do not get this but i do! And i fly 20 sectors a week in a 737 and i get tired by some clowns who fly 250 knots all the time its not gonna work at busy airports so if you hear planes are following you go to at least 280.
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 01:03
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Babemagnet,

do you have ATC there ??

If you do, they will quite happily take responsibilty for providing the arrival sequence taking in to account the speeds of all the arriving aircraft.

However, please note that sometimes your perception of the sequence will not be the same as the reality
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Old 27th Aug 2008, 10:19
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Anyone care to give an indication how much time is saved comming down @ 280 verses 250 from TOD? My hunch is not a lot.....
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