Millitary Pukes
 

Why can an airforce pilot come and join an airline after retiring from a career in the airforce with very little heavy jet experience when, now that I am past the age of 24, I cannot go and fly a heavy jet in the airforce with 1000s of hours experience.

This seems a bit an@l to me.

I hear stories of pilots flying for the american airlines one day, and then flying a USAF F15 the next.



:yuk:

Jack,

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but, in the UK, to gain any partial exemption from taking the whole CAA ATPL course, an ax - military pilot must have at least 2000 hours under their belt.
Even then they are required to take certain parts of the ATPL course and have no exemptions from the Crew Resourse Management section - which for some ex military people is very hard to take in :p .
It's not the breeze that you think it may be, although their previous experience in flying jet or heavy turboprop aircraft, is a big factor in their favour.

At 24, you say you have 1000s of hours experience.

On what type of aircraft?

I think, therein, lies the difference.

Don't the Americans still have an Air National Guard that works in a similar fashion to our VR or TA over here - a kind of part-time military backup which can be called upon in emergency? I'm sure I read that many US civilian pilots are also members of the ANG, which might account for driving an airliner one day and a military type the next..

An ATC friend of mine is in the RAFVR and often bombs about in helicopters, but I don't think as a pilot..

The difference between us and the Americans is numbers. We have very few aircraft in relation to our yank friends yet, if you know anything about the RAF you will know that we have more personnel to aircraft than any other air force in the world.

We don't need part time pilots, we have too many full time one's!

There are a lot of pilots for US flag carrier airlines to fly, say a 737, as a full time job and then one weekend a month fly an F-15 or an F-16 etc. They are members of either the Air Force Reserves or the Air National Guard. Very common here in the US

con-pilot,

What a great life that'd be :)

V1R

"What a great life that'd be"

I'll say! One guy I know of flies an F-something-very-fast (dunno which type) for the military while furloughed from the airlines, and flies vintage bombers and fighters - now thats the life!!! :ok:

There are plenty of Lawyers and Engineers etc flying for the ANG and Air Force Reserve. Not all of them fly for the airlines as a day job. some are ex airforce but many were never full time airforce. Probably the best hobby in the world. Flying jet fighters at the weekend.

Jack

The thing with the Airforce is that, whilst basically, anyone can be taught to fly, not everyone can use the flying platforms tactically and make the correct tactical decisions in an instant without having to struggle with the art of flying. The rigorous selection processes and training regimes are geared toward weeding out the people that don’t posses the right stuff.
Military tactical flying isn’t the same as taking Kylie and Jason from Stanstead to Spain for their annual week in the sun. Being able to fly a 737 (or the like) from A to B doesn’t mean you have the right stuff – just that you have thrown enough time and money in the right direction.
It isn’t so much being an@l as being very cautious with the tax payers money.
The training is very expensive as are the platforms.
As for the Americans, their ‘part-time’ aviators are ex full-time USAF / USN / Marines/ Army Pilots…with very, very few exceptions. Although they are minted and paranoid about defence – even they aren’t stupid enough to put a 737 pilot with no military flying experience / training in charge of a Harrier.

Military Pukes?
 

Hmm, a bit strong perhaps, but then again the shoe fits a few...to a great degree.

Many of these guys from fast jets certainly can not be put in charge of anything in the civvy airline business, except perhaps sweeping the hangar floor.

Much training is needed to knock the cr@p military ideas out of 'em. Certainly can be done, and once done...they generally measure up to civvy guys in all respects.:suspect: :E

from my view
 

we have some ex military types in our field. whilst they are very able chaps they seem to struggle with the fact that they are 'only the driver' and whilst in command of the kite, are that the tactical decisions are made by the rozzers. they also have a tendanct to shout "missiles away" trying to drop weapons when the camera crosshairs are on a vehicle.

this is beaten out of them with a long pointy stick until they eventually conform to our demands.

however, on the plus side its always nice to fly at super low level over the hills, which some of our civilian bred pilots dont feel comfy with.

basically the moral of the story is that we love our pilots, but we love giving them stick even more !!!!!

Silberfuchs is a bit extreme, but he has some valid points. We are all different..... talented, but different. Think back to the original question and remember it is not who are the best pilots. It is, why can't I fly military transports? The truth is harsh, but you need some particular extra skills and attitudes to fly military into potential harms way. THIS DOES NOT QUESTION YOUR ABILITY TO FLY BIG JETS and Yes, you may very well be a better commercial pilot than the ex military man. Remember also, that ex mil people have had years of documented assessments to look back on, not everyone is invited back!! As a new boy, you do not have the wonderful F5000 flying record folder to show you are trustworthy.

There is training...and then there is training ex-mil guys
 

And yes, sadly, the latter are more difficult.

The civvy guys receive the ops manual, and it says quite clearly...at xxxx airline, we do it THIS way..., period.

No arguments from them.

The ex-mil guys (speaking only fast jet guys here, the transport chaps are not a 'problem') tend to believe that the ops manual is written only for others, not them.
And, their training generally has to be extended, so as to get 'em to work as a team, not a one man show.

This costs the airline vital time and resources, that they simply do not have to expend on strictly civvy guys/gals.

This 'one man show' usually follows thru on line training as well, and it soon becomes quite clear that the attitude gets in the way, nearly every time.

When line training these ex-mil chaps, I usually mentioned...shape up or ship out.

Worked every time.

In short, the ex-mil guys flying ability was not the difficulty, it was the attitude.

A bit like those from the old BOAC, beak firmly stuck well above ground effect.:uhoh:

Could I fly for the US Reserve forces. One of those F52s would be a bit of a lark.
OK I am an English Man. However with our "Special Relationship" with the USA, do you think that they would allow me to do the same.
Possibly like the TA, one weekend a month and a two week camp a year, preferably in Florida, now that would suit me down to the ground. Maybe a bounty at the end of each year and a travel allowance. (Imagine the hourly rate). :ok:

411A.... Did you read the original question? This is not a 'we are better than you' argument...... Is it? Or did the military turn you down...... That is banter by the way, not a serious insult!! However if you keep on this slagging the FJ boys (I'm not) that is the way the thread will go. That is a Harry Ramsden super chip you seem to have.

You can join the Royal Navy for pilot training up to the age of 26.

Well, as an ex-Mil pilot I think that 411A has a very valid point. Please note that he is not tarring all ex-military people with the same brush.

But if someone is not receptive to line training, and still think's he's the finest 'aviator' who ever flew and that the old civvy puke in the other seat is a waste of golden gloves' time, then he should indeed shut up or ship out!

Stick and rudder skill set is always a high priority in the military; enthusiasm to adapt to a different way of life when you've been seeing yourself as the 'best of the best' all your life is perhaps not an easy pill for some to swallow!

Fortunately there aren't many UK FJ pilots with such an attitude; the 'wrong stuff' bull$hit trotted out by Learmouth of Flight magazine is utter bolleaux. Most FJ pilots fly in a multi-crew environment anyway - it's just that there are usually 4 FJ mates in 2 or 4 different jets acting as a single team. And that's probably why the ex-Reds do so well in the airlines; not because they've got hundreds of hours in tight formation but beacuse they've got hundreds of hours in a team.

To gain the full ATPL credit in the RAF, you have to have achieved 2000hrs total military flight time, have graduated from an approved conversion unit (eg C130, TriStar, VC10 etc), have at least 1500 hours on that a/c of which at least 1000 must have been P1C. Then you pass a Class 1 medical, pass Air Law, fly a military IR to CAA requirements with a CAA IRE observing (and that means a lot of hand-flying!), fill out the form, pay the money and wait for the licence. You are credited the MCC. But a FJ mate with 2000TT has to take additional exams, has to do MCC, has to do a an IR in something like a PA34.....and ends up with a CPL/IR with ATPL knowledge (known as a 'frozen' ATPL). Not untl he has flown 500 hours as co-pilot on a multi-crew a/c can he upgrade to ATPL!



PS - He or she, of course!

BEable:
 

May I pretty please have (for a reason) a link to an official document you gain your knowledge from, speaking entirely of the last paragraph. I am sure it is dug somwhere ... ´just could not find it.

Thanks FD.

See LASORS section D3.3B and D3.6. You can download LASORS from the CAA website as a .pdf , the TGDA website is currently out of date and being re-written.

Yeeeehaaaaaarrrr!!!!!
 

:yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

Nothing like training with a big stick!!

Just cos I said I had passed the age of 24 (26 too!) doesn`t mean I cant have over 3000 hrs civvy jet time.

Just wanna know why one can start a career with the military, and then end it with an airline, but not the other way round.... Basically, if you`ve got the abillity to both then why can you not do the military thing last?
Or am I being a bit dumb..... Cant possibly ask an old git to fight a war.

Before you ask I was never turned down by the military. Couldn`t have been.... I never applied. Besides, I would have been too good anyway!!!

He he he he

:E :E :E

Jack, taken in the spirit it was meant to be... Nice one :D

If you are an 'old git' like you said, then that is the problem. The airforce can't afford to put pilots through it's training program, and then have them leave in five years because they are too old to fly. Really, it's kind of like a business. They want to put the money into someone they think will want to stay around for a long time. For me it is frustrating because I am not allowed to fly at all for Canada's military because I wear glasses. I have searched for a long time for ways around that, and there are very few. The really frustrating part is that there are pilots in the military with glasses, they just didn't need them when they applied. That pill is a little hard for me to swallow. Any ideas as to how to get around that? The recruiter said I needed military flight experience. Does that mean that if I fly for another airforce that they will take me?

411A gets predictable criticism for his remarks about ex-military fast jet pilots but he probably makes a valid point.

I have often wondered why someone who was motivated and able to fly military fighters would want to fly civilian air transport because, in comparison, it must be about as interesting as watching paint dry. If it is purely for the money, I can understand but one needs the right motivation in order to present the right attitude in training and maybe that is where the problem is. However, I cannot believe that an ex-pilot from two-seat fighters would have much problem with teamwork.

Personally, I considered air transport flying after 6000hrs on fighters and decided that it was not for me – I get bored in the pax cabin but there at least you can drink and watch a movie.

If I had started out civilian air transport I might well have wanted to fly military later but training older pilots in the military is a nightmare, even type conversion if it involves a change of role. It is simply not enough in the military to be able to follow the ops manual but teamwork should and normally is second nature.

In the Military, you are (90% of the time) an Officer before you are a pilot. Maybe that's why it can't go Civvy - Mil ?

Military pilots may/may not be the best (thats up to you), but before they could even get to the stage of flying, they were stripped down and rebuilt as military personnel. It's my belief (from various family and friends who are seving and ex-mil) that once you come round to the military way of life, you're stuck there.

To go Mil - Civvy, you have the flying skills but a different attitude, a more 'tactical' way of thinking (for want of a better word) than your civilian counterparts.

To go Civvy - Mil, not only will you have to be retrained flying-wise to calculate quicker, react faster, learn new terminology etc for the cockpit, you need to learn a new way of life, become a new person entirely and recognise that you no longer represent your airline, but your country and those around you.

Pilots are elite be they civilian or military, if you're lucky enough to become one then you appreciate the hard work involved. Each have their own ups, downs, positives and negatives, but at the end of the day you're all in the same fold (ish).

To sum up my ramblings, the military demand you change your persona, civilians do not, hence why changing an ex-civ at 25-40 will be so much harder than vice versa. Ontop of that i'd rather have a pilot who thinks more 'outside the box' that by the book all the time. I'd trust military guys more than civilians in a stressful situation purely from their military training.

Hope that makes sense... :\

Surely the old addage of "there are no bad students only bad instructors" needs to be considered here. If an airline recruits a new pilot, be he ex-mil FJ, ex-mil truckie, civvie self improver or a transfer from another airline each will need a certain amount of training, some more than others, but not all the same training. If we were all the same and could be trusted to all do the same as the next pilot in each and every situation then training would be easy.

If one pilot of whatever experience and whatever responsibility can ever look at another pilot with less experience and less responsibility and say to himself "I have nothing to learn from this persons experience" then he is at wat. We are all learning (or should all be learning) from each and every person we encounter in this business.

A vast amount of effort, time and expense has been expended to get each and every one of us into the profession or pastime of aviation and to date no one has ever learnt all there is to learn. There are many ways to achieve the objectives, ops manuals, order books, rules and regs are all there for the guidance of the aircrew, but there is no substitue for experience. Ain't no book ever been written wot tells me what to do in every situation.

Sad to say it is too often the case that a transgression of the "rules" is viewed as a criminal offence rather than viewed in the context of how and why it occured.

Just because the books says how to do it does not mean it is the only way to achieve something, reasoned, rational and free thought should be a commodity to be cherished.

Horses for courses.

So why so much interest now then?

The mil recruit you not only as a pilot but as a tactician with the ability to think not only about flying the aircraft but fighting it and surviving in it. This generally means that people with the right abilities have to be taken in young and trained for several years for the role, be they pilot or any other type of mil aircrew.

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

Who said I was interested??
 

I was kind of settled in my company gaining seniority, driving a nice car to work and breaking stewardesses hearts. Why would I want to throw myself into world war 3 or a nutty roller coaster?

Read the question.

On paper.

Theoretically.

Why is it not possible?

Can any politicians tell me?

:hmm:

JackOff

There have been some valid answers given - my thoughts:

1. An older guy learning to be a Fast Jet pilot would find it tougher; it is physically and mentaly demanding and requires determination. It is much easier to learn when younger.

2. I imagine a recruiter would find a candidates motivation suspect if he'd waited years as an adult before deciding to apply.

3. There is a high fail rate in training due to the demands of the job, so they aim a trainee for FJ and although he may not make that he may make an excellent transport pilot or chopper guy. ergo they don't need to recruit people who join only wanting to fly the bigger stuff.

4. I am sorry that some ex FJ guys disappoint their civvy colleagues on the attitude side of things. IMHO there are people with bad attitudes from all backgrounds, but hopefully they are in the minority. It would be helpful if everyone would see as they find and not have preconceived ideas about pilots from different backgrounds.

5. I believe it is healthy to have a range of past flying experience in the civvy world. We all can learn from each other. The military pilots ethos is all about teamwork whatever they fly.

6. 411A - thankyou for your comments. I try hard to follow the ops manual. I also try and learn from my more experienced colleagues who have earnt the right to occupy the left seat. I am pleased to say that few of them display the preconceived ideas concept that I mentioned in para 4 - how about you?

7. Why do so many on these threads throw mud at each other - ok sometimes it's amusing. Wouldn't we be better occupied discussing how to maintain or improve our conditions, our job security and our status in an industry where all these things are on the slide?

411a

You sound like the kind of guy every fighter pilot worldwide would love to meet in the bar at happy hour. I think it would be reeeeeeally interesting to hear of your daring exploits shooting an ils to 27R with a bit of turbulence, oh how the auto pilot and throttles worked hard!

You sum up all that is negative about a fraction of a percent of bitter, civvy pilots who always wanted that FJ seat but didnt have the balls to try for it or were knocked back before getting near it and are now too twisted to admit the fact that was their dream job.

Our job is great and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Maybe see you on the radar when Im off to do a multi aicraft combat sortie and you are on your 3rd leg of your 6 hop regional commute that got you up at 4am. Get upside down once in a while it may change your attitude.




:mad: :cool: :mad:

Intersestingly, it works the other way round too. In my time as a military instructor, I have flown with two RAF students who had commercial licences prior to joining. One was great. A nice guy who enjoyed his time flying helicopters over the North Sea, but accepted that if he wanted to be a fighter pilot he was going to have to do all the early exercises again. As it is, he enjoyed it . He realised the style of flying was so different to his previous experience, he had to re-learn. He didn't find it taxing, he got on with it, did well and had a ball.

The other, who had a CPL form another country and who had done instruction and charter work was completely different. He had a real attitude about learning to fly a different way. He could not accept that he had to fly the JP and thought he should go to Valley on joining. He would not accept advice, and would frequently pick up his instructors on points he considered wrong - and their instructional techniques. I ended up flying with him as a lot of my collegues refused to fly with him. He only just scraped through the course as he was only a mediocre pilot - despite his (over) confidence.

JOAT. I think the answer lies in thet the world of military flying is different enough (even at the military transport level) to make the transition without significant retraining impractical. Although flying a Tristar from Brize Norton to the Falklands is no different from flying a B747 from Heathrow to Rio de Janeiro, as a Tristar pilot you would also have to conduct Air to Air Refuelling operations which without a background in military aviation, would take a while to learn - not just the operation, but the style of operation as well.

It's a case of old dogs and new tricks which in part makes the prospect unviable.

Comments give it all away...
 

Fox_4,

You have seemed to demonstrate rather well my quite valid points about FJ guys and their 'attitude problems'.
I have trained several, and the problems they have created for both the company they now work for, as well as the other crew members they work with (or, rather attempt to work with) have both generated thick personal files of rather negative comments.

In nearly every case, these particular guys just seem to have a difficulty getting on with the job, such is their "I can do it better than you" opinions.

Civil airlines would do well to avoid ex-mil FJ pilots in their selection process, and in so doing, advise 'em to stick with what they really like to do best...fly fast jets.

Oh dear, Fox 4. You seem to have endorsed the point that 411a was making quite nicely!

411A
Rather a generalistic approach wouldn't you say?
I can see that there would be good and bad in all areas and find it rather unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
Quote:
"Civil airlines would do well to avoid ex-mil FJ pilots in their selection process"

Well I know of at least one who's flying capabilities have been recognised in both a single seat capability (R.A.F.) and Boeing arenas.
This pilot is a joy for colleagues to fly with and they are assured of getting the job done with this particular person. No arrogance, no nonsense...

Maybe a course in C.R.M would suit you....I know a great Ex F.J pilot who runs courses in the airlines. Oh and is an airline pilot now.

If I was flying as a passenger I would view an ex f.J as no different than any other pilot...After all how many people have done a hard-loop-reach- for-the-skies-lost-him-in-the-sun....mega negative-g-roll in a 767??????
Well in that case they can't all be that bad!
Some are some are not.
Don't write everybody off!

Very rarely, in fact probably once, have I posted. I do feel compelled, however, to contribute to this completely worthless thread.

I'm ex RAF FJ (12 yrs), now 2yrs right hand seat civvy. Love(d) both jobs, both are challenging, and I work(ed) with good and bad guys.

What is the point of this thread? By the way, the title (unless tongue in cheek)....stinks.

Rant over!

I guess Gelderd's inability to count his previous posts is about as clever as his unconstructive style of contributing.

411A seems to have wound up more than a few and produced some interesting points of view as a result - thankyou 411A.

In my many unhappy hours as self-loading freight I have always wanted nothing more than a well trained current pilot with above average ability up front in case the autopilot breaks during the emergency. My preconceived ideas indicated that an ex-FJ pilot with enough airline hours to make captain should surely fit those requirements.

Was I wrong and was my life more at risk than I thought?

411a

What was the point of the thread?! Civvies are better than mil pilots?!

Cant believe I bit on this. Its sapping my will to live just replying.


:zzz:

OOOOH!
 

The point of the thread was to ask a valid question....... And to see how much tension there really is between civvy an mil pilots. Think both questions have been answered quite well.

It's a shame civvy and mil pilots don't get on better. Perhaps there is a strong tendancy for pilots to respect other pilots more when they have a similar background to themselves. To the extent that they degenerate into a pompous yuppie bitchslapping green-eyed monster when sniffing even the slightest comment that could indirectly degrade their ego.

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh:

Funny enough I understood exactly the point Gelderd made. Sounds like an ok chap to spend a 4 day trip with unlike others here.

411
How recent is YOUR experience in airline flying?

Arrest the usual suspects!
 

I work for a British company, one that was started by an ex-Fleet Air Arm pilot, that had always preferred to hire ex-military people for reasons practical and sentimental, I guess. So I have come as close as possible to being immersed in talking the talk without having much of a clue how to walk the walk. I could give you the 15-minute presentation on flying a Shackleton from memory, having heard it every evening for two months at a time whilst under deep sedation. I even wear an RAF official wrist watch, albeit one that is made by Seiko! I drew the line at wearing the Irvine sheepskin jacket, though. It might look a bit dodgy when it's 35° in the shade.

We have two splits, ex-military/totally civvy and rotary-/fixed- wing. You can just imagine the wind-ups and slagging-offs that come out of this in the bar of a wet and windy evening.

Some of the biggest jerks I have flown with in my life have been people firmly mired in the 'When I....' groove. One fellow was laying it on very thick one night about his time at 60 feet and 500 knots in the mighty Buccaneer, so that I put on my best, corn-fed, stupid Yankee air to tell him that we had a lot in common. 'Yes!' I told him, 'I too used to fly my Cessna 150 at 60 knots and 500 feet during my brilliant career as a CFI.' You could see the gears grinding in his head as he tried to figure out whether I could possibly be taking the Michael there, or was I as stupid as he thought I was....

And, on the other hand, the best pilot and all-around good guy I have had the pleasure to work with was an ex-RAF fast jet pilot.

I don't think much of this generalising is much use, aside from seeing everyone wind each other up. Perhaps that was the main intention?

It is always nice to see 411A come out of his cave to hurl rocks at those who fail to measure up to his exacting standards. It makes me think of that little bird that comes flying out of the clock on the hour. Go get 'em, tiger!

Having dragged my way through this thread (bored at work). It is interesting to see that all pilots Mil or civvy seem to be full of their own importance.

It reminds me of a colleague "that was a legend in his own lunchtime".

Now where do we go from here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!