Atlantic - 2 stops with JMC?

[stagger]

Friend booked on LGW-YYZ in a couple of weeks with JMC expecting a refuelling stop at KEF. Just called by agent and told that a refuelling stop at Gander has been added.

I was wondering...

1) JMC fly across the pond with 757-200s, right? Two stops aren't always necessary with this type, are they? Is this a range constraint imposed by lack of ETOPS certification (i.e. can't take direct route). But why would this only have recently become apparent?

2) So what could lead to the addition of an extra refuelling stop now? Aside from the DC-10 if they only have one other type (757-200) that they use across the pond what could have changed? Have they leased another type off someone else? Surely they're not going to use one of their A320s?

What type that could reasonably be used on a transatlantic service would require two scheduled stops anyway?

Thanks in advance

[BlueEagle]

Just a thought, as I don't have access to any route distances, but KEF-YYZ may be just a bit far for a 757-200 in mid winter, against the prevailing westerlys?

I have done BAH-LGW in a -200, approx eight hours duration with no shortage of alternates.

As I said, just a thought!

[stagger]

Using a web-based calculator I found that KEF-YYZ great circle is 2597 miles. Is that too far?

LGW-YQX is only 2369 miles though - but I think I might have worked it out. I've known other operators to do LGW-YYZ on 757-200s with one stop in Gander - but surely you'd need ETOPS for a LGW-YQX route that was as short as 2369 miles. So without ETOPS does LGW-YQX direct then become too long for the 757-200?

I just had a look at the JMC fleet list and according to their website one of their 757s does have ETOPS capability. So perhaps they originally planned to use this one for this service and now can't for some reason.

Does this sound about right?

[expedite_climb]

stagger,

Your info is perhaps a little out of date. jmc binned the dc10's for longhaul spring '01 and completely sept '01. They've had 330's since then.

They have signed a load of winter work to spotty M so the 330's to do the Hajj, but off course the Hajj is off now.

So two possibilities :
i) Monarch is the operater
ii) You are going on an a/c that is going out there for the winter.

[stagger]

Thanks expedite_climb - I must have been looking at an out-of-date version of the JMC webpage.

So can just substitute 330 for DC10 in what I wrote earlier then - neither would require any stops right?

But what I'm still wondering - Monarch or JMC - what type requires 2 stops. A non-ETOPS 757-200 that consequently can't just do 1 stop at Gander??? Or something else I haven't thought of?

And expedite_climb - could you explain why an a/c that is going out there for the winter would require an extra stop? Or is it that this is much more likely to be one that's non-ETOPS?

Lots of questions - but this is the questions forum right?

Thanks

[Stud3]

I flew on a Britannia B757-200 to Orlando back in 1992. We stopped off at BGR for a refuelling stop and continue to Orlando. The Return Journey however was direct from Orlando to Newcastle.
In 1994 i flew with Airtours(now known as My Travel), again on a B757-200 and we stopped off at BGR and then continue on to Orlando. On our return journey however, we did stop off at Bangor for a refuelling stop, then continued our journey back to Newcastle.

[stagger]

Thanks Stud3,

NCL-BGR is about 3000 miles - about 400 miles longer than KEF-YYZ - and if a Britannia/My Travel 757-200 can do that in one go why can't a JMC/Monarch one???

[expedite_climb]

Stagger - check your PM.

[Localiser Green]

Ground distance is not really relevant, it is all about air distance. The position of the jetstream in winter does make westbound flights across the Atlantic much longer (already we are seeing some 10.5 hr+ flights from the UK to Florida, where 9 hours is more typical in the Summer).

The opposite works in reverse of course (had a friend who went SFB-MAN in 6.5 hours in an A330 having taken over 10 hours on the outbound flight).

In the Summer the jetstream is usually way further north and although the flights still fight westerlies they are not nearly as strong.

If the strong winds can be avoided on the day in question the flight may only make one stop, and there is a good chance that the YYZ-LGW will be non-stop riding the jetstream home.

Flew an Air 2000 763 LGW-SFB-PVR-SFB-LGW route in October and on the return we went direct PVR-LGW (no stop at SFB) due to the strong winds. Flight time was just over 9 hours which is very good considering the 5,000nm ground distance between the cities.

But that's the difference between air distance and ground distance. The aircraft doesn't fly relative to the ground below it, only to the air around it.

[stagger]

Thanks Localiser Green,

I knew the basics about the jetstream - riding & avoiding it - but I didn't know just how much it's effects differed summer vs winter. Thanks for providing some numbers.

[PaperTiger]

Are you sure something didn't just get lost in the telling ?
A stop at Keflavik westbound and a stop at Gander eastbound (or maybe v-v).

[stagger]

PaperTiger

That's what I thought - but my friend insists the agent told her Keflavik AND Gander westbound with JMC. Just Gander eastbound - but that's with My Travel.

I thought it sounded a bit strange - hence the question here.

[mutt]

expediate climb

They have signed a load of winter work to spotty M so the 330's to do the Hajj, but off course the Hajj is off now.

What do you mean by the Hajj is off? Have the authorities cancelled the event or has the airlines insurers stopped them from operating flights?

Cheers


Mutt.

[expedite_climb]

mutt,

I mean that Garuda Indonesia have cut back a lot of services (and planned ones for the hajj) given recent events in Indonesia. As a result jmc and air2000 are no longer needed to sub out work.