Log Book Guidance

[Tomol]

Hi all,

Hope everyone is doing well,

This year I went from being a student pilot to flying for an airline (Woohoo!), I just have some questions regarding log book completion.

Obviously during the student phase I had to fill out my logbook as though I was single pilot and a lot of time went under NAV etc, would someone please be able to give maybe an example page of their logbook so I can see what I should be filling in for each flight?

These are the questions I have:

• Under "Operating Capacity" I'm putting P2, is this correct?
• Do I need to log "Instrument Flying" and if so, is this on block to off block?
• I've seen First Officer jobs in the past advertised as having one of the requirements of so many hours PIC, how do I log PIC time if I'm a first officer?
• Does sim time on type account towards total hours?

If anyone has any guidance to logbook completion such as official (preferably UK CAA or Irish CAA documents since I'm changing my licence to the Irish one) documents from one of the mentioned CAAs then it would be much appreciated,

Thanks in advance,
Tom

[extreme P]

When it comes to logging sim I always ask myself, "Did I leave the ground?"

The answer so far has been no so it is logged as sim time. NOT FLIGHT TIME.

[beamer]

I used to log instrument flying time associated with an instrument approach, no more, no less but whether that was correct I no longer know nor care !

Sim time should be logged separately. My log books had a section for this at the back of the book.

Logically if it is your sector as PF should you log P1 and if PNF then P2. Nothing in the Command column until you change seats.

Log books differ as do rules and regulations so I would recommend getting advice from the authority associated with your licence issue.

[B2N2]

You should ask your fellow pilots at your airline how they log.
Trust me, asking this on a forum is going to net you mostly useless answers like mine.

[Denti]

Under EASA one can log actual instrument time, however only only in the remarks column or an unused one. Instrument in itself means flight time under instrument flight rules, not in IMC, and yes, that is usually in the airline world the while block time.

As a FO you cannot log PIC. However, some CAAs, including the UK CAA allow the logging of PICUS time outside of a defined training program, but that is not PIC.

SIM time is not total time, it is SIM time if one bothers to log it at all.

And yes, as a FO it is of course P2.

[meleagertoo]

Originally Posted by beamer

Logically if it is your sector as PF should you log P1 and if PNF then P2. Nothing in the Command column until you change seats.

Not correct. You can only log P1 if you are the commander. A co-pilot can never log P1 though as stated above there are ways of logging PICUS

Why would you want/need to log instrument time? All airline flying is IFR (Unless you're with Loganair of course) but surely no-one is intrested in your instrument time once you have qualified for your licence? Of course if you just want to that's another matter.

ps. How could you log P1 but not in the command column? There are only 3 columns anyway - P1, P2 and Dual.There's no seperate command column - how could there be?

[beamer]

Probably because I used RAF log books for my entire career - CAA never had an issue with it.

Important thing was to use the correct terminology when applying for anything to do with CAA regulations. which is why I recommended the young man to check with the regulatory authorities concerned with his current active licence.

[Uplinker]

@Tomol,

Please see pm

Regards,Uplinker.

[megan]

Instrument in itself means flight time under instrument flight rules, not in IMC, and yes, that is usually in the airline world the while block time

ICAO Annex 1 defines "Instrument flight time" as " Time during which a pilot is piloting an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points". EASA on the other hand has a slightly different wording, but the intent is the exact same, "means the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments". FL370 IFR plan and gin clear day doesn't make the cut.

[Denti]

Originally Posted by megan

ICAO Annex 1 defines "Instrument flight time" as " Time during which a pilot is piloting an aircraft solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points". EASA on the other hand has a slightly different wording, but the intent is the exact same, "means the time during which a pilot is controlling an aircraft in flight solely by reference to instruments". FL370 IFR plan and gin clear day doesn't make the cut.

Indeed, however, under EASA rules there is absolutely no need to log Instrument time, however, there is an innate need to log IFR time. AMC1 FCL.050 a) 5) states quite clearly that time flown under instrument flight rules has to be logged, however, there is no mention of instrument flight time in regards to sole reference by instruments. If you then read on about the format of the EASA flight log, it shows only IFR time, but not time in sole reference to instruments, however, that can of course be logged at ones leisure in the remarks column, as it might be needed if one wants to pursue options outside of EASA regulations. In EASA instrument flight time is only relevant during training for a rating or license. But not to keep a license current, it is therefore completely irrelevant once the training has finished.

That is actually one of the things that didn't change in the change from JAR to EASA FCL.

[Bucket]

Logging correct times

For those new to the RHS post graduation from flight school, there is often little or no guidance from their new employers as to the correct procedure for logging hours. The logbook itself in its notes at the front section is a good starting point. Logging P1 time whilst new in the RHS is a big no no. You're not the commander, you did not sign the tech log and you don't hold a full ATPL. I have seen newbies log P1 AND put their name in the command column simply because they were the handling pilot. I have also been told they were expressly permitted to do this though when asked who told them they because a little vague. PI/S needs to be countersigned anyway. You are P2 unill you go LHS. Put an asterix in the remarks if you wish to denote you were handling. P1 is for commanders and commanders under training who will indeed occupy the LHS and sign the tech log and assume all the responsibilites of the commander (albeit under the watchfull eye of a training Capt). Fudging this will get you noticed for the wrong reasons.

IFR time are the rules under which the flight was conducted. Instrument Time are the conditions you flew in. Sim time has separate pages in most logbooks. Don't put it in the 'normal' pages.

[Cencio]

Hello Everyone

I return to the thread with some extra questions. This may be of interest for many Flight Instructors.

1) Can I log simulator ground time in column 11 and specify the training activity in the remarks for Basic IFR training for Commercial Students? I'm not an Instrument Rating Instructor.

2) Can I log IFR when providing flight lessons for Basic IFR training (CPL Integrated Students) in an IFR-trainer cockpit piston-engine aircraft maintaining VMC?

3) Is it allowed logging night and IFR time when flying during night under IFR in a properly IFR-certificated aircraft? Only IFR time or both night & IFR?

Thanks to all those who want to participate in this post.

Cency

[meleagertoo]

Cenico, first of all we would need to knpow what authority you are working under, else it is quite impossible to be sure of answers, but baic logic says.

1)You can log bathtub or bicycle time in a logbook if you wish but you can't count it towards flying time totals if it isn't flying time! (observation as above applies to your particular logbook. So many differnces in layout column numbers are meaningless)
Does your logbook really not have a simulator records section?

2)Surely it is self-evident that as the instructor flying VMC you cannot log IFR as you are't flying IFR. The stude is flying simulated IFR and may log that as such. If you are on an IFR flightplan then of course you log IFR

3)Logic again suggests that IFR being "flight controlled by sole references to instruments" it has no bearing whatsoever on the presence or absence of daylight, so almost certainly No.

[megan]

If you are on an IFR flightplan then of course you log IFR

I would have thought not if you are not actually IMC, that's the case here. Flown on an IFR plan from LAX to MIA and didn't see a cloud the entire time, severe clear VMC the entire time, certainly hope the crew didn't have the audacity to log it as IMC. Not seen a log book that had a column for "IFR", only "IMC - flight or ground"

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by megan

I would have thought not if you are not actually IMC, that's the case here. Flown on an IFR plan from LAX to MIA and didn't see a cloud the entire time, severe clear VMC the entire time, certainly hope the crew didn't have the audacity to log it as IMC. Not seen a log book that had a column for "IFR", only "IMC - flight or ground"

If you're flying IFR you would log it as IFR.

[rudestuff]

Originally Posted by megan

Not seen a log book that had a column for "IFR", only "IMC - flight or ground"

Heres a Jeppesen one...

[megan]

Interesting, doesn't give a log book reader any idea as to the individuals actual time of flight in IMC, the USN in my time the log book had "Instrument - Actual - Simulated", here in Oz "Instrument - Flight - Simulator".

[Denti]

Originally Posted by megan

I would have thought not if you are not actually IMC, that's the case here. Flown on an IFR plan from LAX to MIA and didn't see a cloud the entire time, severe clear VMC the entire time, certainly hope the crew didn't have the audacity to log it as IMC. Not seen a log book that had a column for "IFR", only "IMC - flight or ground"

IMC is not the same as IFR. One is the actual condition of the flight, the other is the set of rules the flight is operated under. It depends on aviation authority and ruleset used, for example under EASA rules IFR has to be logged, there is no need to log IMC, but it can be logged in the remarks column.

[rudestuff]

I think it's a good example of two different systems. Under EASA/CAA 'actual' or 'simulated' (Cloud vs hood) aren't considered relevant as they both meet the requirement for getting an IR.
The only requirement is to log Day/Night and the flight rules operated under.
My assumption is that hours flown 'actual' or 'simulated' are not required to be logged because under EASA/CAA all training for an IR must be done on an approved course run by an ATO, for which separate records are kept.
Also, under FAA rules you can log 6 instrument approaches in actual imc or wearing a view limiting device and keep your IR current forever all by yourself - Hence you need to log for that. We don't have that option under EASA/CAA - a flight with an examiner is mandatory to renew an IR so there is really no need to log hood time etc...